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Autism Spectrum Disorders
EternalSonataFan
Posts: 27 Member
in Debate Club
As a person with Asperger's, I am interested in what people think about Autism Spectrum Disorders (or ASDs), specifically, what people believe causes them.
I know for sure that it's NOT bad parenting (especially on the part of mothers, who receive a TON of the blame), so don't say that - it's an outdated (and AWFUL) thought that was disproved ages ago. Plus, my mom is one of the sweetest people you'd ever meet.
I know an ASD specialist (who also happens to have Asperger's) who says that ASDs are 95% genetic and 5% environmental, which I can believe, since two of my three siblings are also on the spectrum. But what in the environment do you think could aggravate the genes to cause an incidence of ASD?
Please be respectful of one another!
I know for sure that it's NOT bad parenting (especially on the part of mothers, who receive a TON of the blame), so don't say that - it's an outdated (and AWFUL) thought that was disproved ages ago. Plus, my mom is one of the sweetest people you'd ever meet.
I know an ASD specialist (who also happens to have Asperger's) who says that ASDs are 95% genetic and 5% environmental, which I can believe, since two of my three siblings are also on the spectrum. But what in the environment do you think could aggravate the genes to cause an incidence of ASD?
Please be respectful of one another!
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I'm sure some people are going to jump all over me for this viewpoint, but I don't really care. If you think there is something that would actually change my view, I'm open to it. If you just want to tell me I'm a terrible person for having this viewpoint, or that I'm wrong because your cousin/sibling/kid/etc. doesn't fit either of the things I see; my viewpoint won't change based on that.
Since they changed the DSM criteria several years ago, the number of ASD cases has drastically increased. If you read through the criteria, you might understand why... anybody could be diagnosed under one or more of the criteria. While I believe that many patients truly have a developmental issue, there are a lot diagnosed with ASD now that just have old-fashioned behavioral issues. Many of the latter are actually "bad parenting."
That isn't to say all ASD patients fit that scenario, but it has become a trend where terrible parents have kids with awful behavior, so they take them to someone who diagnoses ASD based on vague DSM criteria. Terrible parents then just excuse their absent parenting with "I just can't help it... my kid has ASD."27 -
While there are some kids diagnosed as 'on the spectrum' for poor behavior (the same kids that would have been ADHD in the 90s) that really just need structure and boundaries, by no means does that apply to a majority of people on the spectrum!
I had to fight for years with that stereotype of my daughter even though she has severe classic autism (hand flapping, echolalia, no eye contact, etc). My other daughter is completely normal so probably not just incompetent parenting.
I think there is a genetic component for sure, a lot of people in my family have different 'quirks' that hint at ASD but not severe enough to disrupt their lives. I believe that an unstructured environment can really exacerbate the problem, it really wreaks havoc on all kids though.
Just my two cents.10 -
It's 100% genetic. The only influence environment has is how the individual is prepared to react to specific stimulus.
As for the expansion of ASD criteria...this was yet another well intentioned measure and had very poor results on Western society. This is the unfortunate outcome of the "it's not my fault" reasoning.12 -
midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm sure some people are going to jump all over me for this viewpoint, but I don't really care. If you think there is something that would actually change my view, I'm open to it. If you just want to tell me I'm a terrible person for having this viewpoint, or that I'm wrong because your cousin/sibling/kid/etc. doesn't fit either of the things I see; my viewpoint won't change based on that.
Since they changed the DSM criteria several years ago, the number of ASD cases has drastically increased. If you read through the criteria, you might understand why... anybody could be diagnosed under one or more of the criteria. While I believe that many patients truly have a developmental issue, there are a lot diagnosed with ASD now that just have old-fashioned behavioral issues. Many of the latter are actually "bad parenting."
That isn't to say all ASD patients fit that scenario, but it has become a trend where terrible parents have kids with awful behavior, so they take them to someone who diagnoses ASD based on vague DSM criteria. Terrible parents then just excuse their absent parenting with "I just can't help it... my kid has ASD."
Can you a bit more specific on your assessment of the DSM criteria?4 -
I believe it is 100% genetics.
I think poor nutrition and stressful environments can increase difficulties for someone who has ASD and make it more noticeable. We know more about it so it gets diagnosed more. A diagnosis should not be an excuse to check out but a way of getting help though. The parents I know whose kids have been diagnosed with ASD work pretty hard at parenting.
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midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm sure some people are going to jump all over me for this viewpoint, but I don't really care. If you think there is something that would actually change my view, I'm open to it. If you just want to tell me I'm a terrible person for having this viewpoint, or that I'm wrong because your cousin/sibling/kid/etc. doesn't fit either of the things I see; my viewpoint won't change based on that.
Since they changed the DSM criteria several years ago, the number of ASD cases has drastically increased. If you read through the criteria, you might understand why... anybody could be diagnosed under one or more of the criteria. While I believe that many patients truly have a developmental issue, there are a lot diagnosed with ASD now that just have old-fashioned behavioral issues. Many of the latter are actually "bad parenting."
That isn't to say all ASD patients fit that scenario, but it has become a trend where terrible parents have kids with awful behavior, so they take them to someone who diagnoses ASD based on vague DSM criteria. Terrible parents then just excuse their absent parenting with "I just can't help it... my kid has ASD."
I should learn not to step into debates that I'm not well informed in but here I go:)...
Do children out grow Autism when they become teenagers or adults? Or do they continue to show the same behaviors in the general guidelines of the DSM?
The reason I ask is because children eventually out grow bad parenting, to a degree. This is from Autism speaks...
"There are two domains where people with ASD must show persistent deficits:
persistent social communication and social interaction
restricted and repetitive patterns of behavior
More specifically, people with ASD must demonstrate (either in the past or in the present) deficits in social-emotional reciprocity, deficits in nonverbal communicative behaviors used for social interaction and deficits in developing, maintaining and understanding relationships.
In addition, they must show at least two types of repetitive patterns of behavior, including stereotyped or repetitive motor movements, insistence on sameness or inflexible adherence to routines, highly restricted, fixated interests, hyper or hyporeactivity to sensory input or unusual interest in sensory aspects of the environment. Symptoms can be currently present or reported in past history".
So it seems that yes a child with poor behavior COULD be diagnosed (If this is correct) cherry picking a few of the above behaviors BUT it seems after going to school interacting with other children other adults etc some of these behaviors would IN GENERAL subside greatly and to a much greater degree as they get older wouldn't you think?
I'm not debating this subject as I said I don't have a decent foundation of Autism other than the controversy around vaccines and the rapid rate of increase children being diagnosed.
ETA - I'm googling now:)
It looks like 7% outgrow it.
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Special Ed Teacher here: it is genetic. The disproportionate amount of males vs females diagnosed as having ASD leads me believe it has to be genetic/chromosomal.
Anecdotally: I had a student with ASD...all 3 boys in the family were diagnosed with ASD. I guess someone could argue nature vs nurture, but the parents did everything "right." The mother participated in ABA training, and the kids were very high-functioning; so it was not a product of bad parenting.13 -
Scientifically? WE DON'T KNOW SQUAT! That's what I believe.14
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What confuses me about ASD is that some kids will behave and develop perfectly "normal" for a couple years before regressing into ASD, while others show symptoms from very early on. Does anyone have any information on that? I do believe that it is mostly genetic. I have a friend with two boys on the spectrum, they showed early signs, no regression. Their doctor asked her how long she knew she was on the spectrum...kind of tongue in cheek, but she does have some signs and believes it is genetic.2
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graduate studies in behavioral neuroscience and PhD studies in Neuroimmunology...I can tell you with certainty that nobody knows and as someone on the spectrum I can tell you I've reviewed a lot of research. The last time I reviewed papers a few years ago, the most promising research seemed to show an increase in paternal age as being a very good correlate.
Increasing paternal age has shown to increase the incidence of different types of disorders including autism, schizophrenia, bipolar disorders, and childhood leukemia. I can also tell you that de novo sperm taken from men 45 years old had over twice the amount of DNA damage as sperm from men 30 years old. Optimum genetic material comes from men in their late teens to early twenties. Unlike women who are born with X number of eggs which don't divide, sperm continuously divides and is prone to a lot of damage/germ line mutation with advancing age.
Interestingly, this is how germline retroviruses create lateral gene transfers in populations (in addition to selective pressures) as evidenced in human endogenous retroviral repeats (HERVs) something that I was especially interested in. 8%-9% of our DNA consists of "fingerprints" showing how retroviruses have shaped our genes over the course of evolutionary history. Sorry for the tangent, couldn't resist.
The problem with paternal aging studies is the masking effect created by the general trend in the population for men to have their first child much later in life. Especially within various strata within that general population where the trend is much more pronounced.
For anyone doubting whether this phenomenon is "real" I can tell you that we can see ASD in brain imaging in very reliable and predictable patterns. Furthermore, the increase in ASD diagnosis well mirrors the decline in what we used to generally term "intellectual disability". This creates yet another confounding variable complicating studies.24 -
kenyonhaff wrote: »Scientifically? WE DON'T KNOW SQUAT! That's what I believe.
that's what I know4 -
Err.... I found a relationship between autism spectrum dietary issues and my salicylate/phenol ones. Some youngsters, therefore adults on the spectrum, have problems digesting/eliminating salicylate/phenol too, many people are diagnosed in adulthood. (many plants use salicylate against moulds and mildews) It seems we lack the microbes or enzymes to deal with these salicylate/phenols. Finegold et al, outlined a diet to help, it principally avoids salicylate but less than I needed to. Some doctors treat with enzymes. There has been an increase in the population who are affected. There could be a genetic predisposition if things come together; or antibiotic use; or maternal vit d deficit, or fathers age or all, and more. It is a very complicated subject.
Science is showing the historic over use of antibiotics can cause damage to the digestive tracts of many, making the semi permeable membrane of the gut permeable because the optimum microbe balance is destroyed along with the cause of taking them. The gut should be external to the body, like our skin, its lining is an extension of our skin with different properties. It links into many health problems.
Many on the spectrum experience problems with perfumes, cleaning chemicals and things. A child can become distressed by is parents freshly applied or stale cologne. Increasingly our environment is being contaminated by chemicals some of which were passed for use a hundred or more years ago. Agriculture uses chemicals to increase harvests increasing the toxic load.
as I said, its very complicated.4 -
Blame the Father for this one. Finally! Older dads.
Asberger's seems to be common now.7 -
My oldest son appears to have ASD. We started having him diagnosed, back when Asperger's was still a separate diagnosis from Autism, but we discontinued it. He is homeschooled and did not need accommodations for school. His case is mild and he has no behavioural problems. He was just the type of baby who never wanted to cuddle. As a toddler he would line up his Thomas trains in certain ways rather than "play" with them. He is a smart kid, who learns very quickly, especially in his areas of interest, which changes every few years or so.
Anyways, my son seemed to be born this way. People were calling him an old soul by time he was 8 months old. Some things became easier for him with dietary changes (gluten, some red dyes, and milk). Other things needed to be taught because he didn't intuitively "get" some social situations. He still gets overwhelmed by a lot of noise and people. He needs to leave or he just can't think well. That's his biggest struggle.
My next two boys came out with no autism, and they never developed it. I'm not sure what was different with my oldest. TBH, I don't think I would take it away from him. It's part of who he is. It makes him unique and has added positively to his life in many ways. We have to make a few accommodations for him, but I doubt he'd want to give up his high IQ just so he could tolerate a noisy classroom better. KWIM?12 -
EternalSonataFan wrote: »As a person with Asperger's, I am interested in what people think about Autism Spectrum Disorders (or ASDs), specifically, what people believe causes them.
An engineering degree. Just kidding. Genes, 100 %.8 -
He still gets overwhelmed by a lot of noise and people. He needs to leave or he just can't think well. That's his biggest struggle.
Interesting. I've heard of plenty of stereotypical autism-related behaviors, like strong adherence to routine, unusual interest in how textures feel, and social difficulty especially with understanding social interactions and relationships. I haven't heard of what you described in relation to ASD. But I have a colleague who described having the same struggle, the similarity is uncanny. He said it's very difficult for him to spend more than 20 minutes in a big store, the noise from peoples' conversations coming at him from every angle makes it difficult for him to think, he gets overwhelmed, and has to leave. Your son's experience sounds eerily similar to my coworker's. Is this common?2 -
NorthCascades wrote: »
This is VERY common. Many autistic people have sensory issues (over or under sensitive to touch, noise, etc) and all that sensory input (the noise, people, movement) can overload their systems pretty quickly.
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NorthCascades wrote: »He still gets overwhelmed by a lot of noise and people. He needs to leave or he just can't think well. That's his biggest struggle.
Interesting. I've heard of plenty of stereotypical autism-related behaviors, like strong adherence to routine, unusual interest in how textures feel, and social difficulty especially with understanding social interactions and relationships. I haven't heard of what you described in relation to ASD. But I have a colleague who described having the same struggle, the similarity is uncanny. He said it's very difficult for him to spend more than 20 minutes in a big store, the noise from peoples' conversations coming at him from every angle makes it difficult for him to think, he gets overwhelmed, and has to leave. Your son's experience sounds eerily similar to my coworker's. Is this common?
I have a 16 year old daughter with Autism and she's very sensitive to cacophonous sounds. She's fine with sirens or fireworks but put her in a crowded classroom, gym, or lunchroom and it's just too much. This has been one of the biggest issues with many of the autistic children we've encountered.
As for the other symptoms, she started adapting better to change and improved her eating habits once she was around hitting puberty at 10. Before she wouldn't eat certain textured foods (creamy, mushy, buttery). Now she'll eat most anything! She still has communication and social issues unfortunately and will probably never be independent but she has never had behavioral issues and has always been very affectionate. In fact, it was hard to get her diagnosed at the time (2001-2002) because she wasn't shying away from touch or acting out.
I personally think it's genetic. From reading 16 years worth of studies and my own n=1 experience, I just don't see anything out of the ordinary in our life that would have caused/triggered it. I certainly hope something conclusive is found sooner than later and that more focus is put on taking care of this large population of aging autistic people. I'm scared to death of what will happen when my husband and I are gone. Thankfully our state/county has fabulous support programs.9 -
EternalSonataFan wrote: »As a person with Asperger's, I am interested in what people think about Autism Spectrum Disorders (or ASDs), specifically, what people believe causes them.
I have no "beliefs" regarding what causes them -- that doesn't really make any sense to me -- but my understanding of the research is that all signs are pointing toward genetic factors, and that the physical changes in the cortex take place during pregnancy.
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa1307491?query=featured_home&
Can't 'member who said it, but: "Science is the process of asking reality to test our ideas."
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I believe it's either largely or entirely genetic.0
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My oldest son appears to have ASD. We started having him diagnosed, back when Asperger's was still a separate diagnosis from Autism, but we discontinued it. He is homeschooled and did not need accommodations for school. His case is mild and he has no behavioural problems. He was just the type of baby who never wanted to cuddle. As a toddler he would line up his Thomas trains in certain ways rather than "play" with them. He is a smart kid, who learns very quickly, especially in his areas of interest, which changes every few years or so.
Anyways, my son seemed to be born this way. People were calling him an old soul by time he was 8 months old. Some things became easier for him with dietary changes (gluten, some red dyes, and milk). Other things needed to be taught because he didn't intuitively "get" some social situations. He still gets overwhelmed by a lot of noise and people. He needs to leave or he just can't think well. That's his biggest struggle.
My next two boys came out with no autism, and they never developed it. I'm not sure what was different with my oldest. TBH, I don't think I would take it away from him. It's part of who he is. It makes him unique and has added positively to his life in many ways. We have to make a few accommodations for him, but I doubt he'd want to give up his high IQ just so he could tolerate a noisy classroom better. KWIM?
Our daughter's story is parallel to your son's. We never went through with formal diagnosis since I homeschooled her, even through dyslexia. Interestingly with her sensory issues, she also has synesthesia like I do, and her texture issues with food translate to that. Foods taste odd to her. She, for example, think carrots taste "square" and that lettuce tastes "purple".
Her dietary changes necessary were corn and milk. She outgrew them with puberty.
Our son had behavioral issues, but we don't think he was on the spectrum and never had him evaluated. We Feingolded him and it worked like a charm. He's basically outgrown that now that puberty has hit as well.2 -
kenyonhaff wrote: »Scientifically? WE DON'T KNOW SQUAT! That's what I believe.
I'm happy it only took a little scroll down to see that someone already said this!!..thankkkkk youu!!
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Our daughter's story is parallel to your son's. We never went through with formal diagnosis since I homeschooled her, even through dyslexia. Interestingly with her sensory issues, she also has synesthesia like I do, and her texture issues with food translate to that. Foods taste odd to her. She, for example, think carrots taste "square" and that lettuce tastes "purple".
.
I don't know about lettuce, but raw carrots DO taste square! That is funny, I never thought about it, but they do.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Our daughter's story is parallel to your son's. We never went through with formal diagnosis since I homeschooled her, even through dyslexia. Interestingly with her sensory issues, she also has synesthesia like I do, and her texture issues with food translate to that. Foods taste odd to her. She, for example, think carrots taste "square" and that lettuce tastes "purple".
.
I don't know about lettuce, but raw carrots DO taste square! That is funny, I never thought about it, but they do.
If you haven't and if you're intersted, read up on Daniel Tammet an autistic savant who has beautifully described his synesthesia as well as other interesting aspects of autism.
I usually don't cite wiki for anything but I took this quote from there:
In his mind, Tammet says, each positive integer up to 10,000 has its own unique shape, colour, texture and feel. He has described his visual image of 289 as particularly ugly, 333 as particularly attractive, and pi, though not an integer, as beautiful. The number 6 apparently has no distinct image yet what he describes as an almost small nothingness, opposite to the number 9 which he calls large, towering, and quite intimidating. He also describes the number 117 as "a handsome number. It's tall, it's a lanky number, a little bit wobbly".[8][28] In his memoir, he describes experiencing a synaesthetic and emotional response for numbers and words.5 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Our daughter's story is parallel to your son's. We never went through with formal diagnosis since I homeschooled her, even through dyslexia. Interestingly with her sensory issues, she also has synesthesia like I do, and her texture issues with food translate to that. Foods taste odd to her. She, for example, think carrots taste "square" and that lettuce tastes "purple".
.
I don't know about lettuce, but raw carrots DO taste square! That is funny, I never thought about it, but they do.
If you haven't and if you're intersted, read up on Daniel Tammet an autistic savant who has beautifully described his synesthesia as well as other interesting aspects of autism.
I usually don't cite wiki for anything but I took this quote from there:
In his mind, Tammet says, each positive integer up to 10,000 has its own unique shape, colour, texture and feel. He has described his visual image of 289 as particularly ugly, 333 as particularly attractive, and pi, though not an integer, as beautiful. The number 6 apparently has no distinct image yet what he describes as an almost small nothingness, opposite to the number 9 which he calls large, towering, and quite intimidating. He also describes the number 117 as "a handsome number. It's tall, it's a lanky number, a little bit wobbly".[8][28] In his memoir, he describes experiencing a synaesthetic and emotional response for numbers and words.
I was once hospitalized for my migraines and had the interesting experience of having the whole staff of my migraine clinic come into my room along with quite a few of the nurses to just chat with me. Very few of them had run across a synesthete before.
Before it was too hard for me to do as a sustained activity thanks to arthritis, I used to love to draw, and colored pencils were my favorite medium. A lot of my experience of synethesia revolves around color. I can remember taking an art class back when I worked at an arts college and sort of confusing the instructor when I'd try to discuss things. When my instructor told me I had an eye for color, I told her that it was more like an ear and "feeling" for it.6 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »
Our daughter's story is parallel to your son's. We never went through with formal diagnosis since I homeschooled her, even through dyslexia. Interestingly with her sensory issues, she also has synesthesia like I do, and her texture issues with food translate to that. Foods taste odd to her. She, for example, think carrots taste "square" and that lettuce tastes "purple".
.
I don't know about lettuce, but raw carrots DO taste square! That is funny, I never thought about it, but they do.
If you haven't and if you're intersted, read up on Daniel Tammet an autistic savant who has beautifully described his synesthesia as well as other interesting aspects of autism.
I usually don't cite wiki for anything but I took this quote from there:
In his mind, Tammet says, each positive integer up to 10,000 has its own unique shape, colour, texture and feel. He has described his visual image of 289 as particularly ugly, 333 as particularly attractive, and pi, though not an integer, as beautiful. The number 6 apparently has no distinct image yet what he describes as an almost small nothingness, opposite to the number 9 which he calls large, towering, and quite intimidating. He also describes the number 117 as "a handsome number. It's tall, it's a lanky number, a little bit wobbly".[8][28] In his memoir, he describes experiencing a synaesthetic and emotional response for numbers and words.
I was once hospitalized for my migraines and had the interesting experience of having the whole staff of my migraine clinic come into my room along with quite a few of the nurses to just chat with me. Very few of them had run across a synesthete before.
Before it was too hard for me to do as a sustained activity thanks to arthritis, I used to love to draw, and colored pencils were my favorite medium. A lot of my experience of synethesia revolves around color. I can remember taking an art class back when I worked at an arts college and sort of confusing the instructor when I'd try to discuss things. When my instructor told me I had an eye for color, I told her that it was more like an ear and "feeling" for it.
That's so interesting. I wish I knew if my daughter has this to any degree. She's smart and can communicate but she doesn't really converse. Abstract ideas are very difficult so it's something she wouldn't be able to articulate.3 -
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midwesterner85 wrote: »I'm sure some people are going to jump all over me for this viewpoint, but I don't really care. If you think there is something that would actually change my view, I'm open to it. If you just want to tell me I'm a terrible person for having this viewpoint, or that I'm wrong because your cousin/sibling/kid/etc. doesn't fit either of the things I see; my viewpoint won't change based on that.
Since they changed the DSM criteria several years ago, the number of ASD cases has drastically increased. If you read through the criteria, you might understand why... anybody could be diagnosed under one or more of the criteria. While I believe that many patients truly have a developmental issue, there are a lot diagnosed with ASD now that just have old-fashioned behavioral issues. Many of the latter are actually "bad parenting."
That isn't to say all ASD patients fit that scenario, but it has become a trend where terrible parents have kids with awful behavior, so they take them to someone who diagnoses ASD based on vague DSM criteria. Terrible parents then just excuse their absent parenting with "I just can't help it... my kid has ASD."
I can immediately tell from your post that you are not on the spectrum and have no clue how painful it is to know or be an adult with aspergers/autism.11 -
My son was diagnosed with ADHD and tested for Autism but was diagnosed as "quirky". The dr. said if they were still using the Aspergers diagnosis he'd be on the spectrum for that. but he's just quirky. Guess who else is quirky? Me. The more appointments I go to for him I realize I would have the same diagnosis if I were going to school today as would my brother and probably my husband.
so I say genetics.
My son has some sensory issues. He hates loud sounds or sudden sounds and has lots of food sensory issues. Then again hubs hate loud sounds and I have lots of issues with foods
I agree to a point that some parents just go looking for something and some kind of diagnosis. Heck when we went for our appointment to get the results of the boy's Autism test the Dr. said some parents would be unhappy with the lack of diagnosis. We were shocked but he said lots are looking for something to get them some services for help.2
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