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A Disease of Prosperity
Replies
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chocolate_owl wrote: »
A few reasons why I'd die off almost immediately:
-I'm a slow runner with overly tight hip flexors from constantly sitting.
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French_Peasant wrote: »crzycatlady1 wrote: »cdavison2014 wrote: »Could we grow enough of our own food in our backyards with a few chickens to subsist? Could we heat our homes without electricity or gas delivered effortlessly to us? Could we provide ourselves with drinkable water? Interesting to think that moving even in small steps toward these could make us more fit and able to self-rely.
In situations like pp mentioned we'd be raiding and fighting to the death for necessities like food and weapons. Having chickens and a garden would paint a big bullseye on you
I have to agree.
There is a huge Amish population in my area, and a huge Amish population outside of Philly...once those cities empty out of people who think they can find all the food they need in the country, the Amish--the people best positioned to survive a cataclysm, and share their knowledge with the rest of us--would be absolutely overrun, their traction animals and production animals slaughtered, their seed corn devoured, and I don't even want to think about what would happen to their wives and children at the hands of a mob. It would be the same situation for any farmer, although the non-pacifist ones would go down with perhaps a brisker fight.
And it would be extremely difficult to hide the copious amounts of food and production infrastructure required to keep a family alive.
Assuming I need 3500 calories to maintain in "peasant" mode (which is an underestimation...just going off what I burn today during garden playtime) I would need 50 eggs a day to meet my calorie needs. So that would probably require 60 or 70 chickens, JUST for me, not for my husband or my two children, and that is assuming summertime production--many hens stop laying in the winter time.
Or 14 lbs apples (from established trees at least several years old).
Or 10 lbs potatoes (I hand-planted and dug 50 lbs of potatoes this past year....hard work for fancy little gourmet fingerlings. I probably spent more calories than I produced. Actually, I punched in some numbers and I might have produced a 14,000 calorie surplus).
Or 1.5 gallons whole milk (just raising show rabbits requires significant infrastructure, investment and knowledge...I cannot even imagine with a cow).
Or 17 lbs of dandelion greens (a little less than a bushel).
Every day.
Ideally it would be some combination thereof, but this illustrates the huge amount of food needed to meet the requirements of just a smallish laborer. Fats and sugars, two of our biggest bugbears today, would be items of extreme desperation and desire. There is apparently a thing called "rabbit starvation" where you are attempting to subsist off of meats that are too lean.
No problem--just go into "starvation mode" and you'll be fine.
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amusedmonkey wrote: »Humans are unbelievably resilient, more resilient than you would think. Syria had all the luxuries someone in the first world has. People were generally living comfortable lives. Now, a war torn country where food is scarce and healthcare is nearly nonexistent, people are who haven't been killed have adapted to survival. If anything happens, of course some will not survive it, just like any disaster, but you would be surprised how tough some seemingly "soft" people are.
This is a very good point. Another modern example of this would be the blockade and siege on Sarajevo in the early 90s. Dig up some of the interviews with the private citizens who lived through that, if you want an idea of just how resilient and cooperative humans can be when forced.
It basically became an environment where lighters and toilet paper were extremely valuable forms of currency. We always seem to worry about food and shelter, but even in a huge city, facing permanent blocks on aid, sanitation and the like were a much bigger priority. A human can survive a long while without food. A bad case of cholera or dysentery can wipe you out in short order.5 -
Since I would die within a few days of running out of insulin, I would definitely not survive a major society-collapsing disaster. Sure, the first thing I would do is raid pharmacies, but whatever I get won't last indefinitely.
As to long-term human survival, we have to be realistic.... humans will be extinct within a century, more or less, anyway. Has anyone been paying attention to the latest climate change information?! We have already begun to see some rather unusual climate patterns and natural disasters that can be contributed to global climate change. As time goes on, flooding will continue with greater frequency and affecting larger land areas. Those who survive will relocate inland. Food insecurity will continue to increase as food growth declines due to climate and due to greater habitation of existing farm land.3 -
About half the people would turn into blubbering piles of jello and lose their will to live as soon as the the cell phone network went down. The rest is all downhill from there. The shooting and looting would wipe out major urban areas and they'd turn into chaotic hellholes that would make Mad Max look sane by comparison.
The survivors would be the people in rural areas who have learned how to be self-sufficient. And have lots of guns, lots of ammunition and a few like-minded neighbors who don't like strangers in the 'hood.5 -
i'd rather have a zombie apocalypse.
*looks around da hood....*
It may have already happened. blah1 -
I lived in two different small towns in Italy, one a mountain town on the east and earthquaky side of the Appenines, another in the south near the Adriatic sea in Calabria. Both towns were organized in such a way that the majority of houses had access to large areas of land which were planted with grapes, nut or fruit trees, gardens and stone sheds for chickens and goats. The women were out everyday, managing the garden, hqnging the daily wash out, and tending milking etc the animals, rain, snow or sun. Their houses, even in winter had the windows and shutters open to the air a good part of the day amd smoke coming out of the chimneys. So my take away to you is, move to a small medieval town in modern Italy? No, no, I left. Too backward, there is a lot of superstition and strangeness that goes with that way of life which, trust me, none of us would be prepared for either that goes right along with not being physically tough enough to endure that life. I don't have the solution to centralization of food products, long distance shipping of food products, mechanization of everything, and the delocalization of products, or that families no longer take care of one another and neither do governments care. Sorry to end this on a dark note.
edited with an apology.
What kinds of superstition and strangeness? Sounds like the start to a good mystery novel! The way you describe it already sets such a vivid scene.1 -
We now have an exceptionally efficient food distribution system which can take avocados across the country in the dead of winter and give us processed foods which have a 100 year shelf life. We now have more people working in service positions than in positions requiring manual labor. Our environment has changed, and so the outcomes of that environment...abundant high calorie, nutrient poor food...service positions which are high on stress, but low on calorie burn. 50 years ago, people didn't chose to be lean...food was more expensive, cars were more expensive, earning a living was based upon physical skill/strength.1
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Gallowmere1984 wrote: »amusedmonkey wrote: »Humans are unbelievably resilient, more resilient than you would think. Syria had all the luxuries someone in the first world has. People were generally living comfortable lives. Now, a war torn country where food is scarce and healthcare is nearly nonexistent, people are who haven't been killed have adapted to survival. If anything happens, of course some will not survive it, just like any disaster, but you would be surprised how tough some seemingly "soft" people are.
This is a very good point. Another modern example of this would be the blockade and siege on Sarajevo in the early 90s. Dig up some of the interviews with the private citizens who lived through that, if you want an idea of just how resilient and cooperative humans can be when forced.
It basically became an environment where lighters and toilet paper were extremely valuable forms of currency. We always seem to worry about food and shelter, but even in a huge city, facing permanent blocks on aid, sanitation and the like were a much bigger priority. A human can survive a long while without food. A bad case of cholera or dysentery can wipe you out in short order.
Very good example. Humans have a tendency to organize and help each other after the initial chaos of a disaster cools down, and they make do with whatever they have. That post apocalyptic scene where people go into this survival mode killing each other, looting, and running from danger is just the initial stage. We often know, consciously or not, that cooperation gives us a better chance for survival and we instinctively organize. There would still be looters and killers, but many of them would be alienated by the group making their chance for survival smaller and gradually weeding many of them out.
While not a disaster, just an example of how people make do when they no longer have access to their usual comforts. I remember back in my teens the car broke down and we got stranded in the middle of nowhere. That was before cell phones were a thing, but we did live a reasonably comfortable life back then. We dipped the car cleaning rag into the gas tank and used it along with throw away paper and some pieces of wood that were laying around to start a fire to keep warm because it was nearly nightfall and it was getting cold, while my step dad attempted to fix the car. We had never had to start a real fire before that outside of things like grills where tools make it easier, but we managed. Then we slept in the car all crammed together in the backseat for warmth covering ourselves with windshield covers. In the morning, my mom walked about 15-20 kilometers to the nearest town to get help. My step dad has heart disease so she was the best candidate for the task. My step dad played games with us to make waiting for mom less stressful. A few hours later she was back with help. The man who helped us took us to his house where we met his family and were offered food. There, we were able to call relatives and he sent a tow truck to the location. This pales in comparison with a real disaster that lasts days if not years, but does show that even without our phones, heaters, comfortable beds and luxuries we can still function when thrust into it, we just prefer the comforts when they are available. In that incident, we instinctively knew how to assess our immediate needs and prioritise them, perform tasks we were not familiar with and pick the right people for the right tasks.3 -
If we can't see MacGyver episodes on youtube, we're toast for sure.
My father was an only child raised on a farm of 320 acres. The crop of 1929 was sweet potatoes. While the crop was still in the ground, money disappeared at the onset of the Great Depression. At harvest time, they could not sell as there was no money. That little family survived the winter with no food other than sweet potatoes.
Dad never ate sweet potato again.7 -
I think humanity would adapt. I, however, would be dead so I wouldn't care one way or the other. Personally I probably am "soft" if by "soft" you mean "kept alive by modern medicine," but I tend to be in favor of that, since I like living (not to mention being relatively pain free) better than the alternative. 0
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Are we destined to end up like the movie Wall-E?
When I began reading your post, this is the first thing I thought of. My husband and I have a theory that the imagineers at Disney were inspired by the red carts that obese people rent to ride around on in the parks because they can't handle the walking when they created that movie. So, in a sense, we are already there.
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I'd just try to find the nearest Twinkies storage.
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Tacklewasher wrote: »I'd just try to find the nearest Twinkies storage.
Be on the lookout for Woody Harrelson when doing so.4 -
snowflake954 wrote: »What I fnd really strange in our luxury world of today is the unhappiness and depression everywhere. Everytime I go home to the States more and more people among family and friends are depressed. It's an epidemic. It always leaves me puzzled. People that have much more than I had as a kid and it doesn't make them happy or serene. Very sad. For the OP--what are people that can hardly walk goning to do if catastrofie hits? Not a pretty picture.
I have pondered on the topic also. Recently I watched a brief documentary were young people ,who immigrated from an impoverished country, were asked what shocked them the most about modern countries. They said they saw far more unhappiness, less ability/willingness to share, and emotional distress than the poorer places they had come from. It's a peculiar paradox that deserves serious attention.1 -
I'm always very glad to learn how to do lots of things from scratch. Pretty sure I could have a cow on my land, and make/ milk/butter/cheese and sell or trade it. Would just have to sit out with my bow and protect her from savage carnivore looters. Lol
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snowflake954 wrote: »What I fnd really strange in our luxury world of today is the unhappiness and depression everywhere. Everytime I go home to the States more and more people among family and friends are depressed. It's an epidemic. It always leaves me puzzled. People that have much more than I had as a kid and it doesn't make them happy or serene. Very sad. For the OP--what are people that can hardly walk goning to do if catastrofie hits? Not a pretty picture.
I have pondered on the topic also. Recently I watched a brief documentary were young people ,who immigrated from an impoverished country, were asked what shocked them the most about modern countries. They said they saw far more unhappiness, less ability/willingness to share, and emotional distress than the poorer places they had come from. It's a peculiar paradox that deserves serious attention.
I'm pretty sure that it's just something inherent to the human condition. When we face fewer natural environmental dangers and stressors, we'll create our own to compensate.2 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »What I fnd really strange in our luxury world of today is the unhappiness and depression everywhere. Everytime I go home to the States more and more people among family and friends are depressed. It's an epidemic. It always leaves me puzzled. People that have much more than I had as a kid and it doesn't make them happy or serene. Very sad. For the OP--what are people that can hardly walk goning to do if catastrofie hits? Not a pretty picture.
I have pondered on the topic also. Recently I watched a brief documentary were young people ,who immigrated from an impoverished country, were asked what shocked them the most about modern countries. They said they saw far more unhappiness, less ability/willingness to share, and emotional distress than the poorer places they had come from. It's a peculiar paradox that deserves serious attention.
I'm pretty sure that it's just something inherent to the human condition. When we face fewer natural environmental dangers and stressors, we'll create our own to compensate.
I thought human beings, by nature, will always look for easier ways of survival and comfort? Wouldn't there be fewer people in the world and little motivation to prosper if humanity "creates" suffering due to it being "inherent to the human condition"? For example, a small farming village in a developing country does not have the same ratio of youth suicides (over school grades/achievements) as in first world countries. I'm not saying that stress and depression does not exist in the populations of lesser developed places, but that more modern countries could learn more healthy thinking and living from them.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »What I fnd really strange in our luxury world of today is the unhappiness and depression everywhere. Everytime I go home to the States more and more people among family and friends are depressed. It's an epidemic. It always leaves me puzzled. People that have much more than I had as a kid and it doesn't make them happy or serene. Very sad. For the OP--what are people that can hardly walk goning to do if catastrofie hits? Not a pretty picture.
I have pondered on the topic also. Recently I watched a brief documentary were young people ,who immigrated from an impoverished country, were asked what shocked them the most about modern countries. They said they saw far more unhappiness, less ability/willingness to share, and emotional distress than the poorer places they had come from. It's a peculiar paradox that deserves serious attention.
I'm pretty sure that it's just something inherent to the human condition. When we face fewer natural environmental dangers and stressors, we'll create our own to compensate.
I thought human beings, by nature, will always look for easier ways of survival and comfort? Wouldn't there be fewer people in the world and little motivation to prosper if humanity "creates" suffering due to it being "inherent to the human condition"? For example, a small farming village in a developing country does not have the same ratio of youth suicides (over school grades/achievements) as in first world countries. I'm not saying that stress and depression does not exist in the populations of lesser developed places, but that more modern countries could learn more healthy thinking and living from them.
I'm not saying it's intentional.
Using your example: that small farming village is likely too worried about producing enough yield to either eat, or trade/sell for other commodities, keeping animals from wrecking their harvest, etc. to stress about the stupid *kitten* that leads to youth suicide rates being so high in the developed world.
When you've never had to endure real hardship, everything negative can feel like the end of the world. It's how we can look at the modern Western poor, many of which have access to things that millionaires didn't have a century ago, and think that their life is so hard.4 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »snowflake954 wrote: »What I fnd really strange in our luxury world of today is the unhappiness and depression everywhere. Everytime I go home to the States more and more people among family and friends are depressed. It's an epidemic. It always leaves me puzzled. People that have much more than I had as a kid and it doesn't make them happy or serene. Very sad. For the OP--what are people that can hardly walk goning to do if catastrofie hits? Not a pretty picture.
I have pondered on the topic also. Recently I watched a brief documentary were young people ,who immigrated from an impoverished country, were asked what shocked them the most about modern countries. They said they saw far more unhappiness, less ability/willingness to share, and emotional distress than the poorer places they had come from. It's a peculiar paradox that deserves serious attention.
I'm pretty sure that it's just something inherent to the human condition. When we face fewer natural environmental dangers and stressors, we'll create our own to compensate.
I thought human beings, by nature, will always look for easier ways of survival and comfort? Wouldn't there be fewer people in the world and little motivation to prosper if humanity "creates" suffering due to it being "inherent to the human condition"? For example, a small farming village in a developing country does not have the same ratio of youth suicides (over school grades/achievements) as in first world countries. I'm not saying that stress and depression does not exist in the populations of lesser developed places, but that more modern countries could learn more healthy thinking and living from them.
I'm not saying it's intentional.
Using your example: that small farming village is likely too worried about producing enough yield to either eat, or trade/sell for other commodities, keeping animals from wrecking their harvest, etc. to stress about the stupid *kitten* that leads to youth suicide rates being so high in the developed world.
When you've never had to endure real hardship, everything negative can feel like the end of the world. It's how we can look at the modern Western poor, many of which have access to things that millionaires didn't have a century ago, and think that their life is so hard.
Intentional or not, the matter is clear. As I also stated that people from both sides of the spectrum suffer depression. It was only an example and I don't get the "the stupid *kitten* that leads to suicide" (?) part but oh well.
Going back to my original comment, I think it's very interesting that foreigners from a poorer country would comment being shocked at witnessing the amount of unhappiness and the less ability to share in modern societies. I still think that their opinion matters.
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About half the people would turn into blubbering piles of jello and lose their will to live as soon as the the cell phone network went down. The rest is all downhill from there. The shooting and looting would wipe out major urban areas and they'd turn into chaotic hellholes that would make Mad Max look sane by comparison.
The survivors would be the people in rural areas who have learned how to be self-sufficient. And have lots of guns, lots of ammunition and a few like-minded neighbors who don't like strangers in the 'hood.
Sounds like I'll be surviving then.
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