Downside to no direct ab training?
jemhh
Posts: 14,261 Member
I directly train abs very intermittently. I'll decide I need to do it and stick with using the ab roller a couple of days a week for several weeks. Then I will have to leave it out due to running out of time for one or two workouts and then then thought of doing it leaves my head entirely for several months.
My question is...if my goals do not include visible abs, is there a downside to not doing direct ab training? My lifting is centered around compound lifts. I deadlift and squat 2+ times a week and believe that I have good core strength from those exercises.
My question is...if my goals do not include visible abs, is there a downside to not doing direct ab training? My lifting is centered around compound lifts. I deadlift and squat 2+ times a week and believe that I have good core strength from those exercises.
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Replies
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If you do compound lifts and have good core strength then there is no need to directly train your abs in my opinion.
I personally avoid direct ab work as I found it was increasing my waist size.6 -
I do it because my core is weak as hell despite doing compound lifts for several years (obv did it wrong). It was recommended by my physical therapist that I strengthen my core (and glutes) to stave off my back pain.0
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I have started to skip ab/core workouts, I hate them and honestly don't feel like they are worth my time. Compound lifts and yoga once per week is enough core stimulation for me.0
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I do some, like those you do hanging and raising your legs,well your hips, and planks, I love me plants, but deadlifts and other stuff I do surely get my abs hurting. That should do it0
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I have the unpopular opinion in that I feel direct ab/core work is very beneficial. Yes, doing other movements and big compound exercises provide a good minimum amount of core work, but it is my belief that you can never have too strong a core. I'd rather have my core stronger than it needs to be, than let it be a weakness or limiting factor in other movements.
L-sits, front/back/side levers, hollow body, arch, strict toes to bar and all the regressions for all of these movements are a staple for me, and I feel should be incorporated into more people's plan. I've also started to do a lot of rotational and anti-rotation movements.3 -
I have the unpopular opinion in that I feel direct ab/core work is very beneficial. Yes, doing other movements and big compound exercises provide a good minimum amount of core work, but it is my belief that you can never have too strong a core. I'd rather have my core stronger than it needs to be, than let it be a weakness or limiting factor in other movements.
L-sits, front/back/side levers, hollow body, arch, strict toes to bar and all the regressions for all of these movements are a staple for me, and I feel should be incorporated into more people's plan. I've also started to do a lot of rotational and anti-rotation movements.
Out of interest is that beneficial for strength/athletic benefits rather than aesthetics?0 -
I do a fair bit of pilates and yoga, I consider core strength crucial to preventing back injury with age...plus I have a desk job and I find I don't have back aches and pains from sitting all day if I keep up my core work...and my posture is superb!0
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I have the unpopular opinion in that I feel direct ab/core work is very beneficial. Yes, doing other movements and big compound exercises provide a good minimum amount of core work, but it is my belief that you can never have too strong a core. I'd rather have my core stronger than it needs to be, than let it be a weakness or limiting factor in other movements.
L-sits, front/back/side levers, hollow body, arch, strict toes to bar and all the regressions for all of these movements are a staple for me, and I feel should be incorporated into more people's plan. I've also started to do a lot of rotational and anti-rotation movements.
^ Pretty much same.
I have/had some anterior pelvic tilt issues, more core work has helped significantly. I do a lot of cable crunches, standing and kneeling. Trying to get more variety lately, planks + crunches had me crazy sore last week.
I don't feel that I get that much just from compound movements most of the time, I like to add in hypertrophy for everything as well.0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »I have the unpopular opinion in that I feel direct ab/core work is very beneficial. Yes, doing other movements and big compound exercises provide a good minimum amount of core work, but it is my belief that you can never have too strong a core. I'd rather have my core stronger than it needs to be, than let it be a weakness or limiting factor in other movements.
L-sits, front/back/side levers, hollow body, arch, strict toes to bar and all the regressions for all of these movements are a staple for me, and I feel should be incorporated into more people's plan. I've also started to do a lot of rotational and anti-rotation movements.
Out of interest is that beneficial for strength/athletic benefits rather than aesthetics?
Purely strength/athletic (and long term spinal health). I'll never eat strict enough to worry about aesthetics.2 -
I would start by saying I regard abs as just part of your core.....
One downside of not training your core directly might be that your compound lifts might not be as good as they could be.
It's a two way street - compound lifts activate your core but having a strong core also helps your lifts.
Of course it depends where a person's weak link in the chain is - so the balance of your exercise routine is personal.
One of the key functions of core muscles is to help stabilise your spine and prevent injury.
That's more important for me than others for sure as my spine is a bit of a mess, getting my core (including abs) strong was my key to being able to train effectively. YMMV.
(BTW - I'm talking about functional strength and health, I'm too old be bothered by aesthetics!)2 -
For the proponents of direct ab training--how much training do you feel is best?
I feel like I spend a lot of my time doing the exercises that I need to do in order to have a balanced program rather than the ones I actually enjoy doing.0 -
There is a (big) difference between "ab" work and "core" work. If we consider "ab work" to be primarily trunk flexion (e.g. Crunches), or planks, then, no, you arent' missing much if you don't do them.
There are benefits to training the "core", but you want to do it the right way. This will give you an idea:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/core-training-that-isnt-stupid
As will this:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/21st-century-core-training
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There is a (big) difference between "ab" work and "core" work. If we consider "ab work" to be primarily trunk flexion (e.g. Crunches), or planks, then, no, you arent' missing much if you don't do them.
There are benefits to training the "core", but you want to do it the right way. This will give you an idea:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/core-training-that-isnt-stupid
As will this:
https://www.t-nation.com/training/21st-century-core-training
Thanks for the links. I don't even read articles about core training usually so those were helpful. I do landmine work and some carries that look like they would be core training.0 -
For the proponents of direct ab training--how much training do you feel is best?
I feel like I spend a lot of my time doing the exercises that I need to do in order to have a balanced program rather than the ones I actually enjoy doing.
Someone linked this a while ago and I found it to be a huge help.
http://jasonferruggia.com/gymnastic-secret-stronger-abs/
I was doing the first movement at the end of my lower days, but never got through all 5 sets. I switched my programming around and now do core first...voila, I was able to get through it finally and moved onto the second movement this week. I just switched to the bodyweight Strong Curves program and do core work (1-3 moves) at the beginning of each workout. Don't know if that's right or wrong, but it works for me.1 -
I have the unpopular opinion in that I feel direct ab/core work is very beneficial. Yes, doing other movements and big compound exercises provide a good minimum amount of core work, but it is my belief that you can never have too strong a core. I'd rather have my core stronger than it needs to be, than let it be a weakness or limiting factor in other movements.
L-sits, front/back/side levers, hollow body, arch, strict toes to bar and all the regressions for all of these movements are a staple for me, and I feel should be incorporated into more people's plan. I've also started to do a lot of rotational and anti-rotation movements.
I share your opinion.
I have dealt with some sciatica issues in the past from a weak core. Since then, I have dedicated some time to core movements as means to strengthen the muscles. In the past 2 years since I have started, I have yet to have any injuries. And I don't do a lot of core work. I do 3 sets of 3 moves (reps range from 10 to 25 per set).2 -
For the proponents of direct ab training--how much training do you feel is best?
I feel like I spend a lot of my time doing the exercises that I need to do in order to have a balanced program rather than the ones I actually enjoy doing.
I'll do a little bit before almost every workout. Just a few minutes, a few moves right at the end of my warm up. Sometimes my off days I'll hit my core a little longer. I find "core work" easier to do if I have an end goal in mind. Namely owning all the lever movements. Front, back & side (aka human flag).0 -
I developed visible ab definition for the 1st time in my life w/o doing any ab specific exercises. Just by losing weight/fat and doing DLs, SQTs, BPs, OHPs and Rows. Have also done quite a few pushups, pullups and dips which may also have helped.
Crunches and sit-ups (especially those hyper-extensions on a GHD stand) actually can cause an injury to your spine. Exercises like the suitcase carry, Farmer's walk, overhead walks, offset deadlifts, etc. can help but are probably unnecessary if you're already doing DLs, SQTs, BPs, OHPs and Rows regularly.1 -
For the proponents of direct ab training--how much training do you feel is best?
I feel like I spend a lot of my time doing the exercises that I need to do in order to have a balanced program rather than the ones I actually enjoy doing.
I'll do a little bit before almost every workout. Just a few minutes, a few moves right at the end of my warm up. Sometimes my off days I'll hit my core a little longer. I find "core work" easier to do if I have an end goal in mind. Namely owning all the lever movements. Front, back & side (aka human flag).
Both you and @_dracarys_ mentioned putting it at the beginning of your workouts. I may try that a couple of times a week. Having a specific goal like you have is certainly helpful. I am floundering a bit due to not having a strong goal right now.0 -
I always do core first if I don't it won't get done my core routine is also my warm up so just make it part of your routine.. I believe Core is a must abs twice a week for size the rest to prevent injury. Your first couple dead lift and squat sets are technically core work especially in the high rep range0
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Nothing to contribute really, but following for info/to read later. I lift (recently switched from SL 5x5 to Wendler 5/3/1 with very limited accessory work) and take pretty vigorous vinyasa yoga classes 3-4 days a week. All these things obviously involve core engagement, but I've wondered if it's comprehensive enough.0
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For the proponents of direct ab training--how much training do you feel is best?
I feel like I spend a lot of my time doing the exercises that I need to do in order to have a balanced program rather than the ones I actually enjoy doing.
I'll do a little bit before almost every workout. Just a few minutes, a few moves right at the end of my warm up. Sometimes my off days I'll hit my core a little longer. I find "core work" easier to do if I have an end goal in mind. Namely owning all the lever movements. Front, back & side (aka human flag).
Both you and @_dracarys_ mentioned putting it at the beginning of your workouts. I may try that a couple of times a week. Having a specific goal like you have is certainly helpful. I am floundering a bit due to not having a strong goal right now.
Food for thought - if your workout involves a lot of heavy compound work, pre-exhausting the abs/core beforehand may not be such a great idea. The core does a lot of supporting work in squats, DL, OHP, etc., so it may be a good idea to do those lifts first while the muscles in your core are still fresh.0 -
I do direct ab training a couple times a week as part of my powerlifting training, but only 1-2 exercises per training session and it's always the last accessory. I also do erector spinae and stabilizing spinal muscle work. I prefer isometric work (planks, ab roll outs, pallof press, bird dog, back extension with hip hinge) as these all put the spine in the same position it will be when you lift heavy things. In my experience and from watching many power lifters people rarely fail a squat because their legs or glutes are weak. They fail because their core is weak. Additionally while one can certainly deadlift with a weak(er) core doing so with slight or not so slight lumber flexion that I see many people do causes a lot of wear and tear on the cartilage surrounding spinal discs so for me it's a wanting my spine not to shoot out of my *kitten* during a meet.2
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I work them at the end of my leg days so i dont interfer with the big lifts.0
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trigden1991 wrote: »If you do compound lifts and have good core strength then there is no need to directly train your abs in my opinion.
I personally avoid direct ab work as I found it was increasing my waist size.
I am afraid of this too, so I tend to avoid progressive ab work. You are preparing for competition right? Do you find it has helped?0 -
I will either do them on an upper body day or not at all. I don't have time to do more on lower body days.
I am concerned about my waistline too, though I am forever cutting so hopefully it's not an issue. My waist is already stupidly big.0 -
trigden1991 wrote: »If you do compound lifts and have good core strength then there is no need to directly train your abs in my opinion.
I personally avoid direct ab work as I found it was increasing my waist size.
I am afraid of this too, so I tend to avoid progressive ab work. You are preparing for competition right? Do you find it has helped?
The only way it would be possible to grow your waistline is if you gained muscle and no fat. But I doubt you would be able to gain a significant amount of ab muscle to make a difference. I do certainly know a lot of people who do ab work and have gotten really lean.1 -
trigden1991 wrote: »If you do compound lifts and have good core strength then there is no need to directly train your abs in my opinion.
I personally avoid direct ab work as I found it was increasing my waist size.
I am afraid of this too, so I tend to avoid progressive ab work. You are preparing for competition right? Do you find it has helped?
The only way it would be possible to grow your waistline is if you gained muscle and no fat. But I doubt you would be able to gain a significant amount of ab muscle to make a difference. I do certainly know a lot of people who do ab work and have gotten really lean.
Yea I know, I mean, I do some ab work in my yoga class, just not progressive ab work. I am sure I could do it and be fine, but I am already limited on the amount of time I spend in the gym, and I am bulking so for ME I'd rather not risk it
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trigden1991 wrote: »If you do compound lifts and have good core strength then there is no need to directly train your abs in my opinion.
I personally avoid direct ab work as I found it was increasing my waist size.
I am afraid of this too, so I tend to avoid progressive ab work. You are preparing for competition right? Do you find it has helped?
Purely based on my experience and a few physique competitors I train with; they all tend to avoid heavy abdominal work. The only time they implement light/high volume ab work is in the depths of dietary phases in the run up to a competition, where the chances of any hypertrophy is minimal due to their calorie deficit.
Not saying this is fact/studied, purely anecdotal experience.
The only "ab" training I do is vacuums and the occasional set of leg raises if I have a spare 5 minutes in the gym.1 -
For the proponents of direct ab training--how much training do you feel is best?
I feel like I spend a lot of my time doing the exercises that I need to do in order to have a balanced program rather than the ones I actually enjoy doing.
I'll do a little bit before almost every workout. Just a few minutes, a few moves right at the end of my warm up. Sometimes my off days I'll hit my core a little longer. I find "core work" easier to do if I have an end goal in mind. Namely owning all the lever movements. Front, back & side (aka human flag).
Both you and @_dracarys_ mentioned putting it at the beginning of your workouts. I may try that a couple of times a week. Having a specific goal like you have is certainly helpful. I am floundering a bit due to not having a strong goal right now.
I do some movements prior to work sets, or in between work sets. It helps me with activation and shaving time off the workout. Example:
Ab Wheel Rollout
Bench Set
Ab Wheel Rollout
Bench Set
Ab Wheel Rollout
Bench Set
Hanging Leg Raise
Squat Set
Hanging Leg Raise
Squat Set
etc.
If I do something weighted, I'll toss it in at the end however... Weighted Decline, Cable Crunches, etc.
My abs are pretty shallow (although improved a bit now) and pretty difficult to see, even at low bodyfat... This is from Dec 2014:
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