Cyclical Keto Diet - Modified

gotblues66

Sorry long post. I'm on my 3rd week of the standard keto diet (70/25/5) and MFP put me at 1500 daily calorie target. I am male, short, but had bulked up significantly through weight training to reach about 165 lbs at the high point. Along with that bulk came a fair amount of fat, around the midsection of course, which is why I am trying keto. My goal is to lose fat with minimal muscle loss. Now upon further study I believe 1500 cals/day is too low and have adjusted to a bit over 1800 using other online calculators. I have also adjusted my macros ratio to 65/30/5. I am not craving carbs, but I am finding it extremely difficult to eat so much meat and fat. It's just gross to me. Even before ketosis, I was using whey protein shakes to get keep my protein up. My intention is to cut with keto for long enough to see some significant fat loss (currently estimate my body fat to be around 20% would like to get to 15% or less) and then reintroduce some carbs, maybe transitioning into something more like a paleo diet, for maintenance. After cutting I want to get mass back, go hard and heavy at the gym, but this time being careful not to put on the fat again. Here comes the BUT...
I have read about Cyclical Keto Dieting, and it raised some interesting ideas in my mind. #1 would staying for any significant length of time in a calorie deficit (keto or not) damage your metabolism (ie make it adjust to the deficit)? and #2 wouldn't introducing one cheat day per week be advantageous if muscle mass is a goal, given all the talk, ahem research, around shocking your body or keeping it confused? My proposed model for this modified CKD would be regular keto Mon to Fri with weight training Mon, Wed, Fri low intensity cardio (40 mins spinning) Tues, Thurs, carb binge on Saturday, then Sunday do cardio in morning fasted, return to keto macro targets in afternoon with a lower calorie intake (say 1200-1500 for that one day). Trying to get back into ketosis by Monday. Thoughts anyone?

Gallowmere1984

It's similar to a CKD setup I used for bulking over the summer. Basically I did this:

M, T, T- six whey protein shakes through the day, end the night with beef ribs or chicken wings.
W- six whey shakes, then (relatively) leaner meat at night, something like T-bone or strip
F- 50g carbs per meal through the day with lean ground beef, then carbload at night
Sa- psmf day of nothing but protein shakes
Su- same as m, t, t, except replace one midday shake with ribs or wings as well

My energy levels stayed decent, but I honestly had issues with fat gain due to the ribs and wings being too dense for what I was doing. Lifting 8-10x per week just wasn't enough. If I had it to do over, I'd have dropped the meats altogether, added extra shakes, and just run it as a higher cal psmf with Friday staying the same.

gotblues66

It probably looks like I'm just trying to justify a cheat day, but honestly it's more than that. I don't see how one can gain muscle mass without carbs and I have many articles about cycling diet. John Kiefer's Carb Back Loading for example. I can keep this keto going until the grass fed cows come home, to lean up, but what's next? I want get bigger again and am worried I am losing too much size and strength in regular keto.

Gallowmere1984

dsydorko wrote: »

It probably looks like I'm just trying to justify a cheat day, but honestly it's more than that. I don't see how one can gain muscle mass without carbs and I have many articles about cycling diet. John Kiefer's Carb Back Loading for example. I can keep this keto going until the grass fed cows come home, to lean up, but what's next? I want get bigger again and am worried I am losing too much size and strength in regular keto.

No, you're right. Trying to build appreciable muscle in the total absence of carbs is like trying to row a boat against current, in a river that makes a complete circle. Overcoming a self-imposed biological restriction isn't much of a victory, imo.

gotblues66

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

....My energy levels stayed decent, but I honestly had issues with fat gain due to the ribs and wings being too dense for what I was doing. Lifting 8-10x per week just wasn't enough. If I had it to do over, I'd have dropped the meats altogether, added extra shakes, and just run it as a higher cal psmf with Friday staying the same.

Thanks so much for the reply, Gallowmere. Do you mean you survived a bulking phase 6 days per week on mainly protein shakes, and some meat? As in, little to no veggies except for your Friday carb up? If so, wow, I'd be concerned about my gut flora, digestive system etc. I guess if it's just for a couple months, and you are otherwise healthy, there shouldn't be any lasting damage. At any rate, your plan sounds similar to what I was thinking. Except I'd be doing the carb up on Saturday and the PSMF (had to google that one) Sunday. That, and trading in some of those protein shakes for meat/fish/eggs with at least one big salad per day.

What bothers me about the keto diet is that we all need some convenience meals. And I keep hitting a point in the day where I have maxed out my carbs but still need a boatload of protein and fat to hit my macros. I'm single, work full time and don't have all the time in the world to be cooking meat and veggies. So what do I do? Eat crap like sausages, deli meats, cheese, anything that is high in protein and fat with zero carbs. Yuck! If I have to smell another pork rind I'll puke.

Anyone else?

Gallowmere1984

I did the shakes purely because they are convenient. I could have done the same thing with chicken tenderloin or tilapia, but screw trying to eat 1200+ kcals per day of either of those, nevermind the cooking aspect.

But yeah, I also took a multivitamin, ate Fish oil caps like candy, and took probiotics with the evening fatty meats. I'm not quite insane enough to go pure protein with no supplements, though I am definitely none too stable for doing it to begin with.

gotblues66

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

I did the shakes purely because they are convenient. I could have done the same thing with chicken tenderloin or tilapia, but screw trying to eat 1200+ kcals per day of either of those, nevermind the cooking aspect.

But yeah, I also took a multivitamin, ate Fish oil caps like candy, and took probiotics with the evening fatty meats. I'm not quite insane enough to go pure protein with no supplements, though I am definitely none too stable for doing it to begin with.

The shakes are a lifesaver for me. Convenience, taste great and are actually where I live cheaper per gram of protein than any good meat (steak, salmon or chicken breast). I can't wait to finish up my current supply and go back to Proteinco's New Zealand Whey Isolate, sweetened with Stevia and 0 carbs per serving. That is a keto dream. Mix that with unsweetened coconut or almond milk, add a TBSP of MCT oil and a couple of heavy cream, hit your macros in every delicious serving.