Strength Training that avoids bulking?
FarewellBlues
Posts: 66 Member
I love weight training and do it six times a week. However, I'm the body type that tends to bulk pretty easily. It's not that this bothers me so much aesthetically, but I do Tae Kwon Do semi-seriously and extra bulk seriously hinders my speed and performance there. I'm aiming to have as high a strength:weight ratio as possible, becoming as lean as possible and maintaining flexibility.
I've been reading that I should lift heavy, with <5 reps and few sets, focusing on moving the weight as quickly as possible, and increasing rest time between sets to allow the muscle group to recover almost completely. I guess the aim here is forcing your brain to recruit more motor neurons, and more Type II muscle fibers, to complete a relatively challenging lift. Also, the aim is NOT to go to failure or muscle exhaustion, which promotes hypertrophy. If this is the right idea, what exactly quantifies "heavy"? I've always gauged that by "I basically fail to lift it on the 6th-8th rep," but I think that's not quite what I want to do here?
This is my usual schedule:
Monday - Legs
Tuesday - Back. Evening Taekwondo
Wednesday - Chest. Early morning HIIT spinning.
Thursday - Legs. Evening Taekwondo
Friday - Chest or back on alternating weeks
Saturday - Shoulders. Evening Taekwondo
I also do core work every day, either between exercises or in a separate session. I'm pretty used to it and it doesn't feel very tiring, but in keeping with the lower volume/adequate recovery time guideline above, should I be reducing overall training volume?
Sorry long post, but I'd appreciate any thoughts from people more experienced with these things. Thanks!
I've been reading that I should lift heavy, with <5 reps and few sets, focusing on moving the weight as quickly as possible, and increasing rest time between sets to allow the muscle group to recover almost completely. I guess the aim here is forcing your brain to recruit more motor neurons, and more Type II muscle fibers, to complete a relatively challenging lift. Also, the aim is NOT to go to failure or muscle exhaustion, which promotes hypertrophy. If this is the right idea, what exactly quantifies "heavy"? I've always gauged that by "I basically fail to lift it on the 6th-8th rep," but I think that's not quite what I want to do here?
This is my usual schedule:
Monday - Legs
Tuesday - Back. Evening Taekwondo
Wednesday - Chest. Early morning HIIT spinning.
Thursday - Legs. Evening Taekwondo
Friday - Chest or back on alternating weeks
Saturday - Shoulders. Evening Taekwondo
I also do core work every day, either between exercises or in a separate session. I'm pretty used to it and it doesn't feel very tiring, but in keeping with the lower volume/adequate recovery time guideline above, should I be reducing overall training volume?
Sorry long post, but I'd appreciate any thoughts from people more experienced with these things. Thanks!
0
Replies
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Simple. Don't eat more calories than you need to maintain your weight. No lean person ever got big muscles without gaining weight.8
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You're the first person I've ever met who can bulk by accident.
Most people need a continued surplus of calories and a progressive overload lifting programme...7 -
@TavistockToad I didn't say it was by accident. I'm not a novice to weight lifting, and I've cycled through periods of maintenance or higher calories versus lower calorie periods where I'm trying to lose fat. There are many people who have a hard time putting on muscle despite a calorie surplus and lifting program, there are others for whom it's comparatively easy - but in any case a muscle size gain doesn't always correlate with a strength gain. For some people the same number of muscle fibers will fill a comparatively larger volume. I'm asking how to gain/maintain strength while minimizing this volume increase.
@Mycophilia that's a great first-order approximation, but again I'm not really asking how to avoid gaining muscle. I'm asking how to minimize the volume of any muscle I gain. I also don't want to lose much of the strength I currently have, I've comfortably maintained my weight for the past several months, so I'm looking to tweak my training more than my nutrition.0 -
This seems to be a common myth with women. It takes steroids or a significant amount of nutrition and training to get that kind of bulk/muscle built. I have been lifting five days a week for a year. It has enhanced my distance running. Athletic with some curve is my goal.
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If you want strength with minimal hypertrophy, use a strength program. Your current program is more of a body part split, which is more geared towards hypertrophy. Since you aren't a novice perhaps a powerlifitng program such as the Texas Method would be better suited for your goals? Doing the big 3 several times per week for lower reps.
There's a lot of intermediate programs out there like this, but this is the first one that comes to mind.2 -
@jennjune2014 I'm under no misconceptions. I've been lifting regularly for over a year. Athletic with some curve is not my goal, performance in Taekwondo is.
@TresaAswegan Thanks! I haven't heard of the Texas Method but I'll look into it - hopefully it can help me change things up. I first came to weight lifting on principles geared towards hypertrophy - splits, progressive overload, and all that. I think it was good for giving me a base but I want to go more sports-specific now, and while there is some it seems a lot harder to find good information on this type of strength training. I know there must be other people on this site with similar goals and more experience at it than I.1 -
FarewellBlues wrote: »@jennjune2014 I'm under no misconceptions. I've been lifting regularly for over a year. Athletic with some curve is not my goal, performance in Taekwondo is.
@TresaAswegan Thanks! I haven't heard of the Texas Method but I'll look into it - hopefully it can help me change things up. I first came to weight lifting on principles geared towards hypertrophy - splits, progressive overload, and all that. I think it was good for giving me a base but I want to go more sports-specific now, and while there is some it seems a lot harder to find good information on this type of strength training. I know there must be other people on this site with similar goals and more experience at it than I.
I don't really understand what you are asking. I thought I did but then when you said "Athletic with some curve is not my goal" I got confused again. Can you post a picture? This still just sounds like a matter of controlling what you eat more than anything.0 -
I agree with a few of the previous comments -
1) get on a strength-specific training program.
2) keep your intake at a slight deficit.
Personally, I'd add in some jumping and throwing for the explosive stuff, and to round out your overall training. I wouldn't lift for explosiveness.1 -
Also adding that that's a Powerlifting style program, so the are the only movements you'll do with that type of program. You'll get strong, but mostly at those movements.
I'm not sure how much carry over it would have to tae known do. Might want to talk to an instructor about specifics.
Edit for spelling1 -
Thanks all, these are good suggestions. We definitely focus on plyometric exercises for conditioning during TKD training, but perhaps I should add more to my outside routine. Ya know, "jump more if you want to be a better jumper" and all that. I'm also not sure about the carryover of powerlifting to TKD, but I'm sure it's worth a try, and doing new stuff is fun anyway
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Ditch your current splits. Focus more on full body each time of compound lifts. Combinations of Bench, OHP, Squat, DL, Rows/Pull ups. Keep the reps low. Also definitely incorporate explosive type movements. Cleans, med ball throws, plyometrics. And don't eat too much.2
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"Most people need a continued surplus of calories and a progressive overload lifting programme."..
Why not to do just opposite?0 -
Less weight, more reps, and a lot of cardio.0
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bcalvanese wrote: »Less weight, more reps, and a lot of cardio.
Less weight and more reps isn't how you build strength. Nor is cardio. In fact, the two of those together are more of a recipe to lose both strength and muscle mass at the same time.4 -
The likelihood that you easily gain muscle, without steroids, is very very small. How are you even determining such a thing? Also, the more and longer you lift, the further away you are getting from significant adaptations in your central nervous system and the lower amount of newbie gains that can be made. It's possible you are mixing inflammation in the muscles as gaining mass, but I have yet to actually see anyone on this forum that can actually back up that they gain muscle fast.
Below are a bunch of routines. If you want to increase strength, concentrate on a program that keeps you around 80% of your 1RM and has a bit of lower volume, such as: Strong Lifts, Strong Curves, Starting Strength, Wendler 5/3/1, Bigger Leaner Stronger. If you want endurance and power, than a program like PHUL is a solid choice.
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p10 -
bcalvanese wrote: »Less weight, more reps, and a lot of cardio.
Less weight and more reps isn't how you build strength. Nor is cardio. In fact, the two of those together are more of a recipe to lose both strength and muscle mass at the same time.
Is that why my legs have become more tone, and stronger, yet not bulky since I started power walking and running?1 -
bcalvanese wrote: »bcalvanese wrote: »Less weight, more reps, and a lot of cardio.
Less weight and more reps isn't how you build strength. Nor is cardio. In fact, the two of those together are more of a recipe to lose both strength and muscle mass at the same time.
Is that why my legs have become more tone, and stronger, yet not bulky since I started power walking and running?
Neurological efficiency and fat loss caused by diet can occur with any program. But you leave a lot of strength on the table without address type II muscle fibers.3 -
As others have said strength training doesn't necessarily mean bulking. One can gain strength with working a program on a deficit.
Since your goal isn't powerlifting or hitting a one rep max, you might be better suited to increase your strength at a higher rep range since you need endurance in Taekwondo. That's up to you as some respond better to different ranges.
I would also incorporate Dynamic lifting to work in your explosiveness. This is where a powerlifting program would be a great help for your goals as well.
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FarewellBlues wrote: »Thanks all, these are good suggestions. We definitely focus on plyometric exercises for conditioning during TKD training, but perhaps I should add more to my outside routine. Ya know, "jump more if you want to be a better jumper" and all that. I'm also not sure about the carryover of powerlifting to TKD, but I'm sure it's worth a try, and doing new stuff is fun anyway
Well, I'm not sure what my input is worth. I'm 57, eating at a slight deficit near goal weight for some months now and have zero desire to bulk.
I've incorporated the 5x5 program into my weekly workout. My strength lifts are the usuals, bench, squats, DL and OHP, along with pendlay rows. My strength gains have been pretty noticeable, as well as stability and endurance, with very little, if any, bulking.
Like I said, for what it's worth.
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Well I own a tape measure, and also eyes. I see and measure more muscle. Or a higher volume of muscle. As I've tried to establish, I don't really care what the "bulk" effect is from - inflammation, more muscle, whatever. I know it's not fat; I have calipers and have been shown how to properly use them. It makes me slower in TKD, and I'm already close to my weight class cutoff. I don't know why this is difficult: I'm not saying I'm going to look like Arnold, ever, even with steroids. Even if I had a sex change. I'm saying I gain more easily than many people and I want to minimize this while maximizing strength-to-weight ratio.The likelihood that you easily gain muscle, without steroids, is very very small. How are you even determining such a thing?
This is suuuuuper helpful, it would take me forever to compile and research a list like this on my own. I'm reading up on all the programs.
People have pointed out that eating at a slight deficit will be helpful ... yeah I agree. I do tend to eat a little under maintenance for most of the week, then have a day where I'm eating more and it's enough to balance out the week. So I guess I can reduce that day by a bit.0 -
jennjune2014 wrote: »This seems to be a common myth with women. It takes steroids or a significant amount of nutrition and training to get that kind of bulk/muscle built. I have been lifting five days a week for a year. It has enhanced my distance running. Athletic with some curve is my goal.
k number 1 neither of these happen jsut from lifting....smh...I wish people wouldn't post this crap.
2.FarewellBlues wrote: »@jennjune2014 I'm under no misconceptions. I've been lifting regularly for over a year. Athletic with some curve is not my goal, performance in Taekwondo is.
@TresaAswegan Thanks! I haven't heard of the Texas Method but I'll look into it - hopefully it can help me change things up. I first came to weight lifting on principles geared towards hypertrophy - splits, progressive overload, and all that. I think it was good for giving me a base but I want to go more sports-specific now, and while there is some it seems a lot harder to find good information on this type of strength training. I know there must be other people on this site with similar goals and more experience at it than I.
If you want performance in a martial art but be strong do body weight exercises with increased difficulty.
For example push ups, then uneven, then one armed then ring push ups etc.
search convict conditioning.2 -
FarewellBlues wrote: »
Well I own a tape measure, and also eyes. I see and measure more muscle. Or a higher volume of muscle. As I've tried to establish, I don't really care what the "bulk" effect is from - inflammation, more muscle, whatever. I know it's not fat; I have calipers and have been shown how to properly use them. It makes me slower in TKD, and I'm already close to my weight class cutoff. I don't know why this is difficult: I'm not saying I'm going to look like Arnold, ever, even with steroids. Even if I had a sex change. I'm saying I gain more easily than many people and I want to minimize this while maximizing strength-to-weight ratio.The likelihood that you easily gain muscle, without steroids, is very very small. How are you even determining such a thing?
This is suuuuuper helpful, it would take me forever to compile and research a list like this on my own. I'm reading up on all the programs.
People have pointed out that eating at a slight deficit will be helpful ... yeah I agree. I do tend to eat a little under maintenance for most of the week, then have a day where I'm eating more and it's enough to balance out the week. So I guess I can reduce that day by a bit.
To point out, none of the bold will measure muscle. Inflammation and/or the few lbs of water weight willt come with lifting, due to the breakdown of muscle (its your's bodies reaction to help rebuild muscle... so there might seem to be a fullness). I tend to carry 2 or 3 lbs; a lot of women I know tend to carry up to 5, especially around TOM. That has been consistent regardless if I did strength based or hypertrophy; btw, even strength based workouts can cause hypertrophy because it's driven off total volume.
If you need to meet weight and you are towards the top end of a weight class, cut carbs for a few weeks (pre competition) and after weigh in, you eat a bunch of carbs. That is what we did in our TKD and BJJ competitions.1 -
FarewellBlues wrote: »Thanks all, these are good suggestions. We definitely focus on plyometric exercises for conditioning during TKD training, but perhaps I should add more to my outside routine. Ya know, "jump more if you want to be a better jumper" and all that. I'm also not sure about the carryover of powerlifting to TKD, but I'm sure it's worth a try, and doing new stuff is fun anyway
Well, I'm not sure what my input is worth. I'm 57, eating at a slight deficit near goal weight for some months now and have zero desire to bulk.
I've incorporated the 5x5 program into my weekly workout. My strength lifts are the usuals, bench, squats, DL and OHP, along with pendlay rows. My strength gains have been pretty noticeable, as well as stability and endurance, with very little, if any, bulking.
Like I said, for what it's worth.
This has been my experience also. Getting stronger, lifting more, looking better/stronger without getting "bigger". Eating at, or slightly below, maintenance, 3 days SL5x5, three days cardio,(alternating) one day rest.0 -
bcalvanese wrote: »Less weight, more reps, and a lot of cardio.
less typing, more reading- and lots of learning.5 -
Do a program built for strength- eat at a slight deficit or maintenance.
I'm a professional belly dancer- appearance is part of what I sell- so I can flux in weight to an extent- but my issue is less about "big" and more about 'cut'- no one wants a super cut dancer.
so- I have to be careful of that- I train for strength- I'm fighting to get bigger- but I focus on food to keep my appearance in check.0 -
Hey, not sure if anyone mentioned this website yet, but https://breakingmuscle.com has a bunch of different free training programs geared towards people in various athletics (including martial arts). I'm sure there are people on that site with wisdom towards the goals you're setting 1
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Bulking is from a caloric surplus, not a training program. You're simply not going to gain mass of any sort not matter HOW you lift if you're not in a surplus.0
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FarewellBlues wrote: »@TavistockToad I didn't say it was by accident. I'm not a novice to weight lifting, and I've cycled through periods of maintenance or higher calories versus lower calorie periods where I'm trying to lose fat. There are many people who have a hard time putting on muscle despite a calorie surplus and lifting program, there are others for whom it's comparatively easy - but in any case a muscle size gain doesn't always correlate with a strength gain. For some people the same number of muscle fibers will fill a comparatively larger volume. I'm asking how to gain/maintain strength while minimizing this volume increase.
@Mycophilia that's a great first-order approximation, but again I'm not really asking how to avoid gaining muscle. I'm asking how to minimize the volume of any muscle I gain. I also don't want to lose much of the strength I currently have, I've comfortably maintained my weight for the past several months, so I'm looking to tweak my training more than my nutrition.
I hear you, girl. I'm the same way. People are hysterically quick to condescend to you.
I noticed that I dont put on as much mass when I'm just slightly carb depleted. So I will go low carb leading up to a race, and cut weight. And then when I add enough carbs for race performance, I only do that for as many weeks as absolutely necessary. For marathon for instance, I train 3-4 month cycles. I will go low carb for month 1 and steadily increase carbs to support the longer miles.
It's tough because you can't maintain a deficit forever...especially when you have some other athletic performance goal that would be adversely affected by a caloric deficit. So I have to play around with the numbers quite a bit to keep muscle mass off when I want to be lean for running, but need enough calories and carbs to support the pace and volume I'm doing.
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I should also add that low carb will help with water weight too. So, if you are dealing with some inflammation from training (which I know I experience about once a week), low carb will reduce that. One gram of glycogen will retain 3-4 grams of water, so if you reduce carb intake enough hit your glycogen stores, you can reduce your water weight. That might not have a direct impact on inflammatory weight gain, but it will reduce your baseline water weight.0
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Eat slightly below maintenance.0
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