High vs low reps
mgalovic01
Posts: 388 Member
I know this topic has been posted to death, but I think I have something new to resurrect it. I've always thought that high weight, low reps produced strength and that low weight, high reps produced muscular endurance with a cardio aspect to it, as well. However, I've been reading about arm wrestlers and finding that low weight, high reps produce tendon strength. Tendons do not grow much bigger as they get stronger like muscles tend to do. With less bulk, I feel like you can retain better cardio, look normal, but be super strong at the same time. So, I've been trying it and here is where I think the secret lies: You got to keep going when it starts to burn like crazy. I think this is what triggers the change. To add, I believe this is the best way to train mental toughness through physical exercise. It also reduces the risk of injury associated with lifting heavy, and is better for your heart, because intensity is applied more gradually.
Your thoughts?
Your thoughts?
0
Replies
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Am I understanding you correctly? You are saying that you want to work on strengthening your tendons instead of your muscles because the former don't get bigger the way the latter do?0
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Ever hear of tendinitis? Happens from repetitive movement over and over again. And when it's burning and you keep going (assuming you're not referring to lactic acid build up), then a tendon may detach which is essential a rupture of the muscle.
Realize that arm wrestlers are doing a lot of "ISOMETRICS" in contest. Isometrics have been around forever and are PROVEN for increasing strength regardless of someone's age.
High reps ARE for building muscular endurance.
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4 -
Am I understanding you correctly? You are saying that you want to work on strengthening your tendons instead of your muscles because the former don't get bigger the way the latter do?
Yes, because bulky muscles use more energy and weigh you down. I want to have cardiovascular endurance, agility and strength at the same time. I often hear of it referred to as tendon strength, however I believe that that burn actually stimulates your muscles to recruit more fibers which causes a greater percentage of muscle fibers to get involved.0 -
Ever hear of tendinitis? Happens from repetitive movement over and over again. And when it's burning and you keep going (assuming you're not referring to lactic acid build up), then a tendon may detach which is essential a rupture of the muscle.
Realize that arm wrestlers are doing a lot of "ISOMETRICS" in contest. Isometrics have been around forever and are PROVEN for increasing strength regardless of someone's age.
High reps ARE for building muscular endurance.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I've never gotten tendinitis doing high reps. I believe it is because you have much better circulation while doing high reps. I have had tendinitis in my elbow from heavy gripper training, but that was heavy with low reps. Doing skull crushers seemed to help with that. I think isometrics have a greater potential to cause tendinitis than high reps because you have the strain without the circulation.0 -
mgalovic01 wrote: »I've never gotten tendinitis doing high reps. I believe it is because you have much better circulation while doing high reps.
I think isometrics have a greater potential to cause tendinitis than high reps because you have the strain without the circulation.
Tendons are poorly vascularized, so i don't think there's going to be much difference in circulation from modifying the rep range or time under tension. Tendons get most of their nutrition from the surrounding synovial fluid, so regular usage is key for tendon health.
For the muscles themselves, low reps are king for strength-based activities like arm wrestling.. or lifting heavy stuff.
If you don't want bulk, don't eat in a calorie surplus, simple as that.
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Cherimoose wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »I've never gotten tendinitis doing high reps. I believe it is because you have much better circulation while doing high reps.
I think isometrics have a greater potential to cause tendinitis than high reps because you have the strain without the circulation.
Tendons are poorly vascularized, so i don't think there's going to be much difference in circulation from modifying the rep range or time under tension. Tendons get most of their nutrition from the surrounding synovial fluid, so regular usage is key for tendon health.
For the muscles themselves, low reps are king for strength-based activities like arm wrestling.. or lifting heavy stuff.
If you don't want bulk, don't eat in a calorie surplus, simple as that.
Idk, I've been lifting heavy for a while because I thought it was the only way to get strong, but I found it tearing me down. Then, I came across this dude online named Drazen Kogl. He was a world champion arm wrestler so you know he's strong, even though he looks like a normal guy. I've seen him pictured curling twenty pound dumbbells. I've been doing seventy pound bicep curls recently, for sets of four (not strict), but I thought I'd try the twenty pound dumbbells. So, I did sets of 30 and dang! That's what I'm doing now, for all the reasons mentioned previously. If you're this big buff dude, no one cares that you're strong, but if you look like a normal guy and are still as strong as the buff dudes, now you're talking. I mean, look at Dennis Rogers. Do you think he would be as popular if he was big? Plus, I think there are athletic and health benefits associated with not being big.0 -
STrength and size are not the same thing. There are 110 lb 5 foot tall girls that can outlift a 6 foot tall 200 lb man.
And what do you mean by strength? A marathon runner can out run me, and i can probably out lift him. Who is stronger?
i'm a heavy lifter, that doenst mean every day at the gym i am only lifting heavy.
heavy lifting does a whole lot more than just toughen your tendons. And yes its good to make that last rep or set count with a nice burn, there is where good stuff happens, but not the only time it happens.1 -
Well you seemed to have your mind set on your anecdote. I've given you what actual physiology and kinesiology study has taught me. My response may not convince you, but there are others that lurk out there and they can now choose who to believe.mgalovic01 wrote: »Ever hear of tendinitis? Happens from repetitive movement over and over again. And when it's burning and you keep going (assuming you're not referring to lactic acid build up), then a tendon may detach which is essential a rupture of the muscle.
Realize that arm wrestlers are doing a lot of "ISOMETRICS" in contest. Isometrics have been around forever and are PROVEN for increasing strength regardless of someone's age.
High reps ARE for building muscular endurance.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I've never gotten tendinitis doing high reps. I believe it is because you have much better circulation while doing high reps. I have had tendinitis in my elbow from heavy gripper training, but that was heavy with low reps. Doing skull crushers seemed to help with that. I think isometrics have a greater potential to cause tendinitis than high reps because you have the strain without the circulation.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
4 -
You do realize that genetics, leverage and actual training program matter on how strong people get or how people look? If you can curl a weight 30 times, then you're using slow twitch muscle fibers NOT fast twitch. If you're not sure what those are, look them up. That will give you an idea of how muscle fibers work. One can be strong and not carry much muscle mass. Bruce Lee was like that. There's even a sumo wrestler(Takanoyama Shuntaro) who's much smaller than his opponents and is very strong. But again, one can train like they do and NEVER have the same percentage of strength.mgalovic01 wrote: »Cherimoose wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »I've never gotten tendinitis doing high reps. I believe it is because you have much better circulation while doing high reps.
I think isometrics have a greater potential to cause tendinitis than high reps because you have the strain without the circulation.
Tendons are poorly vascularized, so i don't think there's going to be much difference in circulation from modifying the rep range or time under tension. Tendons get most of their nutrition from the surrounding synovial fluid, so regular usage is key for tendon health.
For the muscles themselves, low reps are king for strength-based activities like arm wrestling.. or lifting heavy stuff.
If you don't want bulk, don't eat in a calorie surplus, simple as that.
Idk, I've been lifting heavy for a while because I thought it was the only way to get strong, but I found it tearing me down. Then, I came across this dude online named Drazen Kogl. He was a world champion arm wrestler so you know he's strong, even though he looks like a normal guy. I've seen him pictured curling twenty pound dumbbells. I've been doing seventy pound bicep curls recently, for sets of four (not strict), but I thought I'd try the twenty pound dumbbells. So, I did sets of 30 and dang! That's what I'm doing now, for all the reasons mentioned previously. If you're this big buff dude, no one cares that you're strong, but if you look like a normal guy and are still as strong as the buff dudes, now you're talking. I mean, look at Dennis Rogers. Do you think he would be as popular if he was big? Plus, I think there are athletic and health benefits associated with not being big.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition 1 -
STrength and size are not the same thing. There are 110 lb 5 foot tall girls that can outlift a 6 foot tall 200 lb man.
And what do you mean by strength? A marathon runner can out run me, and i can probably out lift him. Who is stronger?
i'm a heavy lifter, that doenst mean every day at the gym i am only lifting heavy.
heavy lifting does a whole lot more than just toughen your tendons. And yes its good to make that last rep or set count with a nice burn, there is where good stuff happens, but not the only time it happens.
Idk, I guess I'm just promoting what I'm into. I just came across it and found it enjoyable, whereas I've been avoiding it previously, because I thought it was a waste of time. Recently, I was watching arm wrestling and instead of like three rounds, they had more like 10. At the beginning, the one guy was winning them all, but towards the end the other guy started winning. So, who's stronger? Idk, but I like the mental toughness associated with pushing through the pain that heavy lifting didn't have. I'm not saying I wont lift heavy again, but I'm going to start doing this too now.0 -
Sorry, but you must have never trained with an actual athlete who powerlifts then. Especially if they are on the competitive level.mgalovic01 wrote: »STrength and size are not the same thing. There are 110 lb 5 foot tall girls that can outlift a 6 foot tall 200 lb man.
And what do you mean by strength? A marathon runner can out run me, and i can probably out lift him. Who is stronger?
i'm a heavy lifter, that doenst mean every day at the gym i am only lifting heavy.
heavy lifting does a whole lot more than just toughen your tendons. And yes its good to make that last rep or set count with a nice burn, there is where good stuff happens, but not the only time it happens.
Idk, I'm guess I'm just promoting what I'm into. I just came across it and found it enjoyable, whereas I've been avoiding it previously, because I thought it was a waste of time. Recently, I was watching arm wrestling and instead of like three rounds, they had more like 10. At the beginning, the one guy was winning them all, but towards the end the other guy started winning. So, who's stronger? Idk, but I like the mental toughness associated with pushing through the pain that heavy lifting didn't have. I'm not saying I wont lift heavy again, but I'm going to start doing this too now.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
2 -
Well you seemed to have your mind set on your anecdote. I've given you what actual physiology and kinesiology study has taught me. My response may not convince you, but there are others that lurk out there and they can now choose who to believe.mgalovic01 wrote: »Ever hear of tendinitis? Happens from repetitive movement over and over again. And when it's burning and you keep going (assuming you're not referring to lactic acid build up), then a tendon may detach which is essential a rupture of the muscle.
Realize that arm wrestlers are doing a lot of "ISOMETRICS" in contest. Isometrics have been around forever and are PROVEN for increasing strength regardless of someone's age.
High reps ARE for building muscular endurance.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I've never gotten tendinitis doing high reps. I believe it is because you have much better circulation while doing high reps. I have had tendinitis in my elbow from heavy gripper training, but that was heavy with low reps. Doing skull crushers seemed to help with that. I think isometrics have a greater potential to cause tendinitis than high reps because you have the strain without the circulation.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
Believe me, everybody. Don't listen to this guy lol0 -
Sorry, but you must have never trained with an actual athlete who powerlifts then. Especially if they are on the competitive level.mgalovic01 wrote: »STrength and size are not the same thing. There are 110 lb 5 foot tall girls that can outlift a 6 foot tall 200 lb man.
And what do you mean by strength? A marathon runner can out run me, and i can probably out lift him. Who is stronger?
i'm a heavy lifter, that doenst mean every day at the gym i am only lifting heavy.
heavy lifting does a whole lot more than just toughen your tendons. And yes its good to make that last rep or set count with a nice burn, there is where good stuff happens, but not the only time it happens.
Idk, I'm guess I'm just promoting what I'm into. I just came across it and found it enjoyable, whereas I've been avoiding it previously, because I thought it was a waste of time. Recently, I was watching arm wrestling and instead of like three rounds, they had more like 10. At the beginning, the one guy was winning them all, but towards the end the other guy started winning. So, who's stronger? Idk, but I like the mental toughness associated with pushing through the pain that heavy lifting didn't have. I'm not saying I wont lift heavy again, but I'm going to start doing this too now.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
If you've lifted in the ways I'm referring to then you should understand the difference I'm talking about. If not, try it and get back to me0 -
I've competed. I've done several volume lifting techniques, as well as high rep techniques, etc. Sure it "burns" and I've done them to the point that I've layed on the floor to recover. But I NEVER did it to increase strength. I did what's taught in physiology and kinesiology instruction...............higher weights and lower reps. And I've done 3-4 reps with a spot where the spotter FORCES you to finish the last couple. If you don't or haven't trained that way, then you don't understand the pain and mental toughness it takes. Imagine trying to finish a last rep and it takes 8-10 seconds to complete it without giving up.mgalovic01 wrote: »
Sorry, but you must have never trained with an actual athlete who powerlifts then. Especially if they are on the competitive level.mgalovic01 wrote: »STrength and size are not the same thing. There are 110 lb 5 foot tall girls that can outlift a 6 foot tall 200 lb man.
And what do you mean by strength? A marathon runner can out run me, and i can probably out lift him. Who is stronger?
i'm a heavy lifter, that doenst mean every day at the gym i am only lifting heavy.
heavy lifting does a whole lot more than just toughen your tendons. And yes its good to make that last rep or set count with a nice burn, there is where good stuff happens, but not the only time it happens.
Idk, I'm guess I'm just promoting what I'm into. I just came across it and found it enjoyable, whereas I've been avoiding it previously, because I thought it was a waste of time. Recently, I was watching arm wrestling and instead of like three rounds, they had more like 10. At the beginning, the one guy was winning them all, but towards the end the other guy started winning. So, who's stronger? Idk, but I like the mental toughness associated with pushing through the pain that heavy lifting didn't have. I'm not saying I wont lift heavy again, but I'm going to start doing this too now.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
If you've lifted in the ways I'm referring to then you should understand the difference I'm talking about. If not, try it and get back to me
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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mgalovic01 wrote: »STrength and size are not the same thing. There are 110 lb 5 foot tall girls that can outlift a 6 foot tall 200 lb man.
And what do you mean by strength? A marathon runner can out run me, and i can probably out lift him. Who is stronger?
i'm a heavy lifter, that doenst mean every day at the gym i am only lifting heavy.
heavy lifting does a whole lot more than just toughen your tendons. And yes its good to make that last rep or set count with a nice burn, there is where good stuff happens, but not the only time it happens.
Idk, I guess I'm just promoting what I'm into. I just came across it and found it enjoyable, whereas I've been avoiding it previously, because I thought it was a waste of time. Recently, I was watching arm wrestling and instead of like three rounds, they had more like 10. At the beginning, the one guy was winning them all, but towards the end the other guy started winning. So, who's stronger? Idk, but I like the mental toughness associated with pushing through the pain that heavy lifting didn't have. I'm not saying I wont lift heavy again, but I'm going to start doing this too now.
I'm glad you found something that works for you. For me, I feel like high reps was a waste of time, as well as being less enjoyable.0 -
I've competed. I've done several volume lifting techniques, as well as high rep techniques, etc. Sure it "burns" and I've done them to the point that I've layed on the floor to recover. But I NEVER did it to increase strength. I did what's taught in physiology and kinesiology instruction...............higher weights and lower reps. And I've done 3-4 reps with a spot where the spotter FORCES you to finish the last couple. If you don't or haven't trained that way, then you don't understand the pain and mental toughness it takes. Imagine trying to finish a last rep and it takes 8-10 seconds to complete it without giving up.mgalovic01 wrote: »
Sorry, but you must have never trained with an actual athlete who powerlifts then. Especially if they are on the competitive level.mgalovic01 wrote: »STrength and size are not the same thing. There are 110 lb 5 foot tall girls that can outlift a 6 foot tall 200 lb man.
And what do you mean by strength? A marathon runner can out run me, and i can probably out lift him. Who is stronger?
i'm a heavy lifter, that doenst mean every day at the gym i am only lifting heavy.
heavy lifting does a whole lot more than just toughen your tendons. And yes its good to make that last rep or set count with a nice burn, there is where good stuff happens, but not the only time it happens.
Idk, I'm guess I'm just promoting what I'm into. I just came across it and found it enjoyable, whereas I've been avoiding it previously, because I thought it was a waste of time. Recently, I was watching arm wrestling and instead of like three rounds, they had more like 10. At the beginning, the one guy was winning them all, but towards the end the other guy started winning. So, who's stronger? Idk, but I like the mental toughness associated with pushing through the pain that heavy lifting didn't have. I'm not saying I wont lift heavy again, but I'm going to start doing this too now.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
If you've lifted in the ways I'm referring to then you should understand the difference I'm talking about. If not, try it and get back to me
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
I know what you're referring to. It can take tremendous focus and will power to lift a big weight. It's just so short lived and turns you into more of a Mark Henry. Sustaining that burn works your mental toughness in a way lifting heavy does not. I'm not trying to put down heavy lifting, just bring up high rep sets for their, often overlooked, contribution to strength. I think that when that burn sets in, that it is what causes more muscle fiber activation. That greater percentage of muscle fiber activation can build greater strength without mass. Check out this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivOr-J6dbUQ
At about 7 minutes it starts talking about that muscle fiber activation.
I heard a Dennis Rogers interview where he was asked how he got into old time strongman feats. He said he was watching it, bought a deck of cards and ripped them the first time. Like a natural or something. I didn't care too much for that. Then I found out he had been training for arm wrestling since his early teens and was a world champion arm wrestler before he got into old time strongman feats. That makes a lot more sense. I also read an interview about how he liked to train curls (like I do) more than squatting, and how he knew that was more his path, so that's what he did regardless of what others had to say, and look what he accomplished.0 -
kshama2001 wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »STrength and size are not the same thing. There are 110 lb 5 foot tall girls that can outlift a 6 foot tall 200 lb man.
And what do you mean by strength? A marathon runner can out run me, and i can probably out lift him. Who is stronger?
i'm a heavy lifter, that doenst mean every day at the gym i am only lifting heavy.
heavy lifting does a whole lot more than just toughen your tendons. And yes its good to make that last rep or set count with a nice burn, there is where good stuff happens, but not the only time it happens.
Idk, I guess I'm just promoting what I'm into. I just came across it and found it enjoyable, whereas I've been avoiding it previously, because I thought it was a waste of time. Recently, I was watching arm wrestling and instead of like three rounds, they had more like 10. At the beginning, the one guy was winning them all, but towards the end the other guy started winning. So, who's stronger? Idk, but I like the mental toughness associated with pushing through the pain that heavy lifting didn't have. I'm not saying I wont lift heavy again, but I'm going to start doing this too now.
I'm glad you found something that works for you. For me, I feel like high reps was a waste of time, as well as being less enjoyable.
Check out this article: http://www.walunderground.com/train/training-articles/5-tips-to-improve-tendon-strength0 -
mgalovic01 wrote: »
Yes, because bulky muscles use more energy and weigh you down. I want to have cardiovascular endurance, agility and strength at the same time. I often hear of it referred to as tendon strength, however I believe that that burn actually stimulates your muscles to recruit more fibers which causes a greater percentage of muscle fibers to get involved.
I'm really confused by this statement. You WANT your muscles to use more energy! This is one of the biggest benefits of lifting weights-a more efficient working metabolism.kshama2001 wrote: »I'm glad you found something that works for you. For me, I feel like high reps was a waste of time, as well as being less enjoyable.
Agreed. I always keep the reps low on the compound lifts & rarely go above 15 reps on isolation lifts. If I wanted to do a zillion reps I'd give up weightlifting & join a Body Pump Class-which would be less enjoyable-LOL!
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A person can increase strength and even some muscle size doing high reps to failure. Schoenfeld et al have demonstrated that in a couple recent studies.
Everything else is just word salad gobbledygook.1 -
I lift heavy and ride century rides. I've got the mentally tough stuff down.2
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There are benefits to both. I normally don't do less than 8 reps, or more than 15 reps. Unless I'm doing pull-ups. I focus more on time between sets, and the eccentric portion of the exercise. I have found it to be much more important than rep range.0
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Leadfoot_Lewis wrote: »mgalovic01 wrote: »
Yes, because bulky muscles use more energy and weigh you down. I want to have cardiovascular endurance, agility and strength at the same time. I often hear of it referred to as tendon strength, however I believe that that burn actually stimulates your muscles to recruit more fibers which causes a greater percentage of muscle fibers to get involved.
I'm really confused by this statement. You WANT your muscles to use more energy! This is one of the biggest benefits of lifting weights-a more efficient working metabolism.kshama2001 wrote: »I'm glad you found something that works for you. For me, I feel like high reps was a waste of time, as well as being less enjoyable.
Agreed. I always keep the reps low on the compound lifts & rarely go above 15 reps on isolation lifts. If I wanted to do a zillion reps I'd give up weightlifting & join a Body Pump Class-which would be less enjoyable-LOL!
Bulky muscles weigh you down. They slow you down, so you can't run as fast. Look at the guys in the UFC. There's a reason, besides drug testing, that they don't look like bodybuilders. All that muscle means you'll burn out quickly, and then it will be of no use to you. That's why I want the strength without the bulk, like The Mighty Atom had.
But really it's about what's enjoyable to me. I didn't used to enjoy it, but I found the joy in it, so if you like what you're doing, do you.0 -
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I lift heavy and ride century rides. I've got the mentally tough stuff down.
The stationary bike was one crazy quad burn, but lasted too long during a 20 minute workout. I like the burn I get lifting weights since it just lasts between a few seconds to maybe a couple minutes. I'll also get this wave of heat when the burn gets really intense and some relief, like I just broke through a barrier.0 -
mgalovic01 wrote: »Bulky muscles weigh you down. They slow you down, so you can't run as fast. Look at the guys in the UFC. There's a reason, besides drug testing, that they don't look like bodybuilders. All that muscle means you'll burn out quickly, and then it will be of no use to you. That's why I want the strength without the bulk, like The Mighty Atom had.
Have you ever watched the CrossFit games? They are a great example of big muscular guys/gals that are strong AND fast. They are drug tested as well but I have my doubts that a lot of them are "natural".But really it's about what's enjoyable to me. I didn't used to enjoy it, but I found the joy in it, so if you like what you're doing, do you.
Agreed-and same to you as well
0
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