Calorie Counting vs Intuitive Eating
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TimothyFish wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »I am leaning toward Lyle McDonald's thoughts on the matter. In the modern first world, no one is eating intuitively, unless they are fat. You are utilizing some form of restraint, either conscious or otherwise, to not weigh 300+ lbs. in a world of 500 calorie bagels, 2000 calorie desserts, and 3000 calorie medium pizzas.
If everyone is "utilizing some form of restraint, either conscious or otherwise," doesn't that imply that everyone is capable of controlling their weight through intuitive eating?
No. By using restraint, it is, by definition, not intuitive.3 -
Intuitive eating is what I try to practice when I use the 'plate method' ... half a plate of low carb veggies, 1/4 plate of starchy veggies or grains, 1/4 plate of protein source. Never a fruit at that time unless it's part of the dish. Perhaps a glass of milk if the protein is light on the plate. ... a piece of fruit as a snack midway between meals if I'm hungry ... and a couple times a week a snack after supper of either popcorn or nuts. However, even then I find myself logging the food into MFP and letting the calories fall where they may, just to 'see' how they stacked up.
If I'm having something that isn't plated ... like a stew or a soup, then 1 have a 2-cup cuttoff in volume for that meal. If it's a casserole, then it depends on the dish, but the volumne is usually between 1 and 1 1/2 cups ... like, a 9x13 casserole holds 3 quarts when filled to the very top ...like in a lasagna dish ... and cut into 12 portions that equals 1 cup volume per serving. I'm working on a lasagna just like described, this one meatless and it comes to 530 calories for a serving as described.
PS .... so basically, I count calories even when I don't seem to be. The only intuitive part is I stop eating when I'm no longer hungry and I don't start eating until i've been hungry for a while.1 -
TimothyFish wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »I am leaning toward Lyle McDonald's thoughts on the matter. In the modern first world, no one is eating intuitively, unless they are fat. You are utilizing some form of restraint, either conscious or otherwise, to not weigh 300+ lbs. in a world of 500 calorie bagels, 2000 calorie desserts, and 3000 calorie medium pizzas.
If everyone is "utilizing some form of restraint, either conscious or otherwise," doesn't that imply that everyone is capable of controlling their weight through intuitive eating?
No. By using restraint, it is, by definition, not intuitive.
Explain what an "unconscious restraint" is if it isn't intuitive? And what would be wrong with saying that a person knows by intuition that they shouldn't eat something but they use restraint to follow their intuition?1 -
TimothyFish wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »I am leaning toward Lyle McDonald's thoughts on the matter. In the modern first world, no one is eating intuitively, unless they are fat. You are utilizing some form of restraint, either conscious or otherwise, to not weigh 300+ lbs. in a world of 500 calorie bagels, 2000 calorie desserts, and 3000 calorie medium pizzas.
If everyone is "utilizing some form of restraint, either conscious or otherwise," doesn't that imply that everyone is capable of controlling their weight through intuitive eating?
No. By using restraint, it is, by definition, not intuitive.
Quoted for truth.1 -
I have done intuitive eating before , it has worked great. the hard part was removing the old habit of overeating. This will only work if you eat slow and eat unit the hunger subsides. This is much less food than we would think would actually work. I would only consume about 100-200 calories before the hunger would stop. then after 2 to 3 hrs do the same thing. I sandwich could last 4 meals in this manner. you get the idea.2
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Tacklewasher wrote: »trigden1991 wrote: »If people were good at eating intuitively, why is anyone overweight?
The one's who are good at intuitive eating are the ones not overweight.
I'd say my wife is one of them and I'm not.
It's true that some people are able to intuitively eat an appropriate amount of calories for their size and activity level. I would count myself among that group; I've never actually been overweight.
However asking a question like that on a site that is designed to help people control their intake through calorie counting will add a bit of bias to the response. The main reason people use mfp is to count calories. Although I suppose it's not the only reason.
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HealthyBodySickMind wrote: »However asking a question like that on a site that is designed to help people control their intake through calorie counting will add a bit of bias to the response. The main reason people use mfp is to count calories. Although I suppose it's not the only reason.
Also why I laugh at all the posters who want to argue CICO.
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The problem I tend to have lies in the terminology and how people attempt to apply it.
If someone thinks of intuitive eating as just eating what they feel like eating when they feel like eating it, there's a very good chance this will only work with people who have never had a problem managing a healthy weight.
There certainly are people who can manage their weight using non tracking methods of eating that rely on habit development and/or some other combination of guidelines to help them consume a reasonable amount of calories without necessarily counting those calories, and I think there is a great deal of merit in learning these approaches or some combination of techniques specifically for people who can't stand calorie counting.
And so yes, if you take "'intuitive eating" to just mean free-wheeling it, it's not a good idea, but there are plenty of valid non tracking methods whereby people can learn to use hunger/satiety and typically some combination of guidelines or strategies to moderate their food intake.1 -
I can't/don't intuitively eat because food tastes good. I will probably always need some sort of leash to keep me from gaining my lost weight back.1
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As far as "if it worked why are we obese" I'm sort of repeating a previous point when I say that "eating intuitively" isn't the same as just winging it, but to elaborate further on the obesity part, we are in a VERY obesogenic environment.
Incredibly energy dense food is abundant and it's cheap and convenient. Foods that have a very high energy content, high reward value, and ease of access combined with a declining amount of physical activity is a gigantic problem.
That's of course not to suggest that obesity is singularly environmental -- but I think it's a very big component to it. Check out Stephan Guyenets lectures and podcasts on the neurobiology of obesity, great stuff IMO.6 -
The problem I tend to have lies in the terminology and how people attempt to apply it.
If someone thinks of intuitive eating as just eating what they feel like eating when they feel like eating it, there's a very good chance this will only work with people who have never had a problem managing a healthy weight.
There certainly are people who can manage their weight using non tracking methods of eating that rely on habit development and/or some other combination of guidelines to help them consume a reasonable amount of calories without necessarily counting those calories, and I think there is a great deal of merit in learning these approaches or some combination of techniques specifically for people who can't stand calorie counting.
And so yes, if you take "'intuitive eating" to just mean free-wheeling it, it's not a good idea, but there are plenty of valid non tracking methods whereby people can learn to use hunger/satiety and typically some combination of guidelines or strategies to moderate their food intake.
Yeah, that's me...
I definitely wouldn't call how I eat "intuitive." Much of it is habit and I have rules...and I have exceptions to the rules and so long as those exceptions don't become the rule, I'm good to go.1 -
As far as "if it worked why are we obese" I'm sort of repeating a previous point when I say that "eating intuitively" isn't the same as just winging it, but to elaborate further on the obesity part, we are in a VERY obesogenic environment.
Incredibly energy dense food is abundant and it's cheap and convenient. Foods that have a very high energy content, high reward value, and ease of access combined with a declining amount of physical activity is a gigantic problem.
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Good points. I like.
The environment is definitely getting more complex (in a way) so our eating behavior needs to advance along. It's becoming management of nutrition and all.
In old age or poor parts of the world it's simply that people work like cattle and eat scarcely and few selection of food. Nobody needs to change their eating behavior or could get overweight.
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And so yes, if you take "'intuitive eating" to just mean free-wheeling it, it's not a good idea, but there are plenty of valid non tracking methods whereby people can learn to use hunger/satiety and typically some combination of guidelines or strategies to moderate their food intake.
Yes, when at maintenance (and at times for weight loss), I don't track -- I do what I call eating mindfully and pay attention to portion sizes, keep more indulgent (high cal, not that nutritious) foods for treats and notice how often I have them, don't use restaurant eating as a reason to indulge completely as I go out once a week, and most important for me, don't graze, but stick to 3 regular meals and perhaps a planned snack. Doing that, I know if I'm overeating and don't tend to do it.
If I just eat to desire, graze, etc., I overeat and gain weight.
I would consider the latter more correctly "intuitive eating" and the former "eating to schedule, paying attention to portions" or, again "mindful eating." So based on this I'd say I can't intuitive eat and don't really expect to learn. But that doesn't mean I have to track.
My sister, who has always been thin, pays attention to eating healthfully, is focused on working out, and uses some tricks to make sure she doesn't overeat (she always has berries out or some other fruit, so if she desires to graze she eats that, she usually has nuts available for snacks, which she finds filling). But still I'd say she can intuitive eat -- she doesn't worry about eating to schedule or not snacking, she eats when she feels like it, she eats portion sizes that she likes without thinking about it at all. But still she just generally has no interest in a lot of the eating I would do if not mindful. (For the record, I've never particularly considered this unfair or bothersome, it just is, and I think the differences between people are interesting. I know someone else, a man, quite thin, who seems to have 0 interest in food. He'll eat and enjoy a delicious meal if made for him or if we go to a restaurant, but otherwise he seems happy to just eat something like a bowl of rice. Not sure he eats all that healthfully, or cares, but he's not neurotic about food, just not all that interested.)1 -
Hmm, I think the bigger thing I use to control my eating is structure -- if I follow structured eating I don't overeat. Using structure is also how I found it easy to stick with my calories when logging, and I think my sister perhaps naturally tends to gravitate to a kind of structure when eating, even if she does not consciously think about it, whereas I had to think about it and consciously stick to it (although the more consistently I do it the more natural it feels, of course).
I've noticed a lot of people starting MFP and asking how to not eat certain things or stick to their calories, and my reaction has always been a little puzzlement (you just don't, or do) until I realized that perhaps they didn't intuitively understand that they'd need structure to meet the goals and that eating to plan was part of it, not just logging and stop eating at 1400 or whatever. So they'd be doing things like thinking "I'll eat less" and logging and then realizing they were over by noon and feel frustrated. Too often people think this means they have some broader problem than that for many of us it's important to eat according to structure, as just eating as we feel like it (especially at first) won't work so well (but the structure starts to feel natural).
I really dislike the idea that in a natural state all humans should be able to live in an environment of plenty and just eat to whim (or to perceived hunger, which is not that different) and not overeat. We've generally not done that or needed to, so that only a minority seem to work that way seems normal, not a sign that the rest of us are messed up.1
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