Newbie Gains? Baloney?

SHBoss1673

works when I do it. What browser are you using?

Fithealthyforlife

An interesting observation about "noob gains"...

I lost a little over 50 lbs dieting with my primary exercise being running and started to get that "skinny fat" look. I have been going to the gym and doing core/upper body exercises at home more regularly the last couple of months to try to get more definition. One thing I have read over and over here is that you can only have "noob gains" if you work out while eating a deficit diet. That may be true, but it turn out that "noob gains" is really all I wanted. I understand that some people want a lot more and that's fine; this is just sort of a PSA for people in my shoes who want to tone up and are leery of gaining anything back after fighting hard to lose it. I am getting pretty close to the size/shape/weight I was after without gaining any back.

Hi. That doesn't sound right based on everything else I've read and what we've all discussed above in this thread.

I think what's more likely, is that you can differentiate between noob gains if you're eating a defecit, because they might still happen and then abruptly end or taper off (?). But if you were eating a bit more, you'd continue to have gains after. So it'd be hard to differentiate what is a noob gain vs. regular hypertrophic gain (because it wouldn't stop, so there'd be no clear-cut division). At least that's my take...

_noob_

I'll give my example of newbie gains...

I lifted a lot in HS for football and 3 years during grad. school where i got lean at 6'0" 210 lbs (was like 240 in HS). My bench was 335, squat like 550 (I never maxed but repped 495) and DL was 465 (I'd only done them for a year at the time) in grad. school.

I stopped lifting completely from 2006-2012. In Feb. 2012 I started lifting again as I lost weight from 285 to 235 about midsummer. I started back being able to bench about 275, squat 400 and deadlift about 360. In about 4 months lifting I was up to 355 (a lifetime high acheived during a cut), 475 and 450, respectively. So basically I'd regained all my old strength even though I was losing weight the whole time.

Those were "restarting" newbie gains.

Who knows if I gained muscle mass or just retrained existing fibers.

Fithealthyforlife

works when I do it. What browser are you using?

I just switched browsers and it works now. Thanks for the tip.

Now, this graph is reassuring! I'm curious how it was constructed, though.

...how "experienced" is the red-line trainee? (How much time do they have under their belt?)

After working our 1 to 3 times a week with mostly light weights for several months now, I feel like I'm just at the verge of being able to generate hypertrophic changes now that I'm switching to heavier weights for a phase. I can tell because my muscles seem a bit firmer and the blood supply is better. That's usually the first stage of entering hypertrophy, in my experience. (Also, my connective tissues seem a lot stronger now).

phjorg1

ahh, how so, please explain your logic here. In all my research and in all the Kinesiology and Physical training I've taken gains made by a beginner exersizer or someone who has lapsed and reverted includes little to no hypertrophic effects. The first few weeks of training a new routine activate long dormant muscle fibers, there is very little, if any, new muscle mass added during the first 6 to 8 weeks (loosely speaking) of a brand new training routine for someone who hasn't trained those muscles before.

yes, the latter part of your blurb is the textbook definition of strength gains. Newb gains has a few loose definition, but all have to do with actual hypertrophy. Which as you know is different than strength. so for example, hypertrophy while in calorie deficit, or the increased hypertrophy you get while being new compared to trained lifters.

Skeletal muscle hypertrophy, by definition, is the addition of new cells to existing muscle fibers and bundles which can either lengthen or bulk existing muscle causing strength, performance, endurance, or size gains depending on the training methods, calorie balance, and genetics. Your body doen't go from no work to hypertrophic immediately, it first has to "learn" how to use 100% of the muscle available.

yes, I know how strength gains and hypertrophy gains work.

darkguardian419

I'll give my example of newbie gains...

I lifted a lot in HS for football and 3 years during grad. school where i got lean at 6'0" 210 lbs (was like 240 in HS). My bench was 335, squat like 550 (I never maxed but repped 495) and DL was 465 (I'd only done them for a year at the time) in grad. school.

I stopped lifting completely from 2006-2012. In Feb. 2012 I started lifting again as I lost weight from 285 to 235 about midsummer. I started back being able to bench about 275, squat 400 and deadlift about 360. In about 4 months lifting I was up to 355 (a lifetime high acheived during a cut), 475 and 450, respectively. So basically I'd regained all my old strength even though I was losing weight the whole time.

Those were "restarting" newbie gains.

Who knows if I gained muscle mass or just retrained existing fibers.

I've done a similar situation, with similar number gains (except my bench went from 135 to 315 in about 2 months).

Lyle McDonald at www.bodyrecomposition.com (sorry can't get exact link for you) has talked about getting back into lifting after an extended break (1 week vs 2 weeks vs 1 month vs 2+months). Initial strength is lower, but increasing/exceeding pre-break strength did not take much time, relatively speaking.

It is possible that going from lifting barbie weights back to real weights you will experience something similar, as your current lifting was not much of a workout... starting to lift heavy again would be a shock to your system as it's outside of the comfort zone.

Fithealthyforlife

It is possible that going from lifting barbie weights back to real weights you will experience something similar, as your current lifting was not much of a workout... starting to lift heavy again would be a shock to your system as it's outside of the comfort zone.

yes, that is what I was thinking. I also had periods of 3-8 weeks in there over the years where I did _nothing_. Now, I literally *doubled* my arm curl weight the other day compared to what I had been doing. I wouldn't call it a true "strength gain" because it was a lot more difficult. But I did do it...

darkguardian419

What is your end goal from lifting? Have you tried compound lifts at all?

Fithealthyforlife

What is your end goal from lifting? Have you tried compound lifts at all?

Goals: hypertrophy, strength, endurance, and a bit of definition. In that order.

Compounds: I currently do bench press and shoulder press with bars. I'm adding squats and deadlifts too.
Any compounds I'm still missing?

timbrom

I am rather confused by this thread. Get under a bar and make large pieces of metal move up and down. Keep using bigger pieces of metal. When you are using the biggest piece of metal, add more pieces of metal. Eat, sleep. Get strong. Who gives a flying **** about anything else?

Fithealthyforlife

I am rather confused by this thread. Get under a bar and make large pieces of metal move up and down. Keep using bigger pieces of metal. When you are using the biggest piece of metal, add more pieces of metal. Eat, sleep. Get strong. Who gives a flying **** about anything else?

Some of us are scientifically minded and enjoy knowing the theory behind it.

monjacq1964

I've heard about "newbie gains" but I'm skeptical. I think it's likely just because the person's body is fresh and the weights are challenging to them. We have a tendency (some people) over time to slack and not increase weights enough. Also, cycling (periodizing) workouts and taking occasional week or breaks can help reset the body.

I was a fairly serious lifter in high school (9 years ago). Then I sorta stopped. But I kept doing a little light to moderate lifting every once in a while, like once a week. I lost a lot of muscle over time of course, because the intensity wasn't enough and my diet wasn't what it should have been to keep muscle mass. Recently I started lifting more regularly. I've been doing light weights for a few months, and I am switching to moderate/heavy lifting for a while now to build some serious mass and definition.

Apparently I'm not a newbie and am not elligible for newbie gains now??? Sounds stupid to me. So here's the question: Would I have been better off to not have done any weight lifting at all over that period of years so I could be a newbie again and get newbie gains this time around? Did I defeat my future gains by doing low intensity lifting sporadically over a period of years?

Can't believe I'm asking this question!! My gut feeling says no! Newbie gains are just baloney, right?

thanks. now i want some baloney.

Fithealthyforlife

I've heard about "newbie gains" but I'm skeptical. I think it's likely just because the person's body is fresh and the weights are challenging to them. We have a tendency (some people) over time to slack and not increase weights enough. Also, cycling (periodizing) workouts and taking occasional week or breaks can help reset the body.

I was a fairly serious lifter in high school (9 years ago). Then I sorta stopped. But I kept doing a little light to moderate lifting every once in a while, like once a week. I lost a lot of muscle over time of course, because the intensity wasn't enough and my diet wasn't what it should have been to keep muscle mass. Recently I started lifting more regularly. I've been doing light weights for a few months, and I am switching to moderate/heavy lifting for a while now to build some serious mass and definition.

Apparently I'm not a newbie and am not elligible for newbie gains now??? Sounds stupid to me. So here's the question: Would I have been better off to not have done any weight lifting at all over that period of years so I could be a newbie again and get newbie gains this time around? Did I defeat my future gains by doing low intensity lifting sporadically over a period of years?

Can't believe I'm asking this question!! My gut feeling says no! Newbie gains are just baloney, right?

thanks. now i want some baloney.

hey, it's Balogna! And I hate the stuff, personally.

55in13

When I said I got "newb gains" at a deficit, what I meant was that I got my pecs and shoulders looking much more defined. I have just about gotten rid of the "skinny fat" look and I did not have to gain and cut to do it. I think a lot of people, myself included, get the idea from discussions here that they cannot get toned up while dieting. If you are going for "ripped", then you have to go to a lot more trouble with your diet and the exercise. But I think the term "noob gains" sounds like it is nothing of substance when for many of us, it is the very thing we are striving for.

timbrom

I am rather confused by this thread. Get under a bar and make large pieces of metal move up and down. Keep using bigger pieces of metal. When you are using the biggest piece of metal, add more pieces of metal. Eat, sleep. Get strong. Who gives a flying **** about anything else?

Some of us are scientifically minded and enjoy knowing the theory behind it.

Then you're looking in the wrong place. Have you read Practical Programming for Strength Training, by Mark Rippetoe and Ron Kilgore? It's an excellent resource and goes very in-depth into the precise mechanics of getting stronger, at every stage from a complete newbie to professional athletes.

My comment wasn't meant to say ignore the theory. This thread seems to be devolving into a semantic argument, and arguing semantics on the internet makes me angry, which makes me want to go move large pieces of metal up and down, which is actually productive.

DrMAvDPhD

Not baloney and I definitely experienced them and definitely noticed the difference when they started to wear off 6-8 months in.

However, I don't see how the possibility of experiencing or not experiencing newbie gains would change one lick of what you do. Either way you have to work for it.

DrMAvDPhD

What is your end goal from lifting? Have you tried compound lifts at all?

Goals: hypertrophy, strength, endurance, and a bit of definition. In that order.

Compounds: I currently do bench press and shoulder press with bars. I'm adding squats and deadlifts too.
Any compounds I'm still missing?

Row

mustgetmuscles1

Interesting article related to this topic.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/whats-my-genetic-muscular-potential.html

Fithealthyforlife

When I said I got "newb gains" at a deficit, what I meant was that I got my pecs and shoulders looking much more defined. I have just about gotten rid of the "skinny fat" look and I did not have to gain and cut to do it. I think a lot of people, myself included, get the idea from discussions here that they cannot get toned up while dieting. If you are going for "ripped", then you have to go to a lot more trouble with your diet and the exercise. But I think the term "noob gains" sounds like it is nothing of substance when for many of us, it is the very thing we are striving for.

I'm already at that point. :-)

Fithealthyforlife

I am rather confused by this thread. Get under a bar and make large pieces of metal move up and down. Keep using bigger pieces of metal. When you are using the biggest piece of metal, add more pieces of metal. Eat, sleep. Get strong. Who gives a flying **** about anything else?

Some of us are scientifically minded and enjoy knowing the theory behind it.

Then you're looking in the wrong place. Have you read Practical Programming for Strength Training, by Mark Rippetoe and Ron Kilgore? It's an excellent resource and goes very in-depth into the precise mechanics of getting stronger, at every stage from a complete newbie to professional athletes.

I have not. But thanks for the recommendation!