Robert Lustig on exercise
haroon_awan
Posts: 1,208 Member
Just heard a quote from a leading expert in pediatric endocrinology. In a discussion with a lecturer about sugar, fructose and calories:
RL: [Health care professionals] need to explain that a calorie is not a calorie. All calories are not the same. If you count calories you are doomed to failure. And that is what we have seen for the last 30 years. That is not what the companies that espouse this would have you believe. They believe well that if a calorie is a calorie, then you get to choose your calories. And if you are what you eat, everyone gets to choose what they eat. The fact of the matter is, if the calorie is not a calorie then it really does matter, the food quality determines the quality. And the problem is that our food quality right now is just god-awful.
Lecturer: Plus they tell you can always exercise it away.
RF: And you can’t. The fact is, that there’s not one study, not one study, anywhere in the world’s literature, that shows that exercise promotes weight loss. Why is that? Because it causes fat loss but muscle gain. Muscle ended up weighing more than fat and so there are no studies that showing weight loss, it clearly promotes metabolic health and I am all for it. But know what it’s for, if you expect to lose weight by exercising, by seeing it on the scale, you will be sorely disappointed.
Very surprised to hear such an ignorant comment (especially in a online course about nutrition). It's comments like this that lead to confusion among almost everyone who wants to start to lose weight and get fitter and healthier. He makes no other important aspects of exercise, particularly body composition and health which is what 99% of people are after.
RL: [Health care professionals] need to explain that a calorie is not a calorie. All calories are not the same. If you count calories you are doomed to failure. And that is what we have seen for the last 30 years. That is not what the companies that espouse this would have you believe. They believe well that if a calorie is a calorie, then you get to choose your calories. And if you are what you eat, everyone gets to choose what they eat. The fact of the matter is, if the calorie is not a calorie then it really does matter, the food quality determines the quality. And the problem is that our food quality right now is just god-awful.
Lecturer: Plus they tell you can always exercise it away.
RF: And you can’t. The fact is, that there’s not one study, not one study, anywhere in the world’s literature, that shows that exercise promotes weight loss. Why is that? Because it causes fat loss but muscle gain. Muscle ended up weighing more than fat and so there are no studies that showing weight loss, it clearly promotes metabolic health and I am all for it. But know what it’s for, if you expect to lose weight by exercising, by seeing it on the scale, you will be sorely disappointed.
Very surprised to hear such an ignorant comment (especially in a online course about nutrition). It's comments like this that lead to confusion among almost everyone who wants to start to lose weight and get fitter and healthier. He makes no other important aspects of exercise, particularly body composition and health which is what 99% of people are after.
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Replies
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You can't out-train a bad diet.0
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I guess that's why they call him LOLstig2
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Counting calories don't work
Ok then.1 -
The fact is, that there’s not one study, not one study, anywhere in the world’s literature, that shows that exercise promotes weight loss.
Say what now?
As far as I am aware exercise studies show it is better suited for maintaining weight rather than losing weight but it is a huge leap to then go on to say exercise doesn't promote weight loss...0 -
I was looking at that chart and i'm not sure some of those studies should be compared. Look at the deficit differences. Of course a diet deficit of 945 compared to and exercise created deficit of 190 cals is going to lose more weight. Do they have any studies out there that compare a same deficit (as in a diet deficit of 190 cals and an exercise deficit of 190 cals)?0
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I can see what LOLstig is trying to get at, but he's definitely not explaining things well. And some of what he's saying is just plain wrong.
What he's trying to say is that counting calories while eating a diet of almost 100% junk food will usually lead to long term failure. And that is what we've seen over the past 30 years.1 -
Lustig and Taubes are propagating the ONAAT fallacy. Like Atkins and others who have come before them, they appear to be dualists who divide the spectrum and subtleties of food into good vs. evil; and iconoclasts who get attention by challenging conventional wisdom.
The redundant aspirations of dietary dualistic iconoclasts over a span of decades have done us no favors. This good vs. evil foodview invited us all to cut fat and eat Snackwell cookies; then to cut carbs while ignoring trans fat. We could waste a lot of time and squander a lot of health finding more, equally silly places to go.
Calories, of course, do count; they are a measure of energy, and their role is rooted in the laws of thermodynamics. It is the overall quality, and quantity, of our diet that matters to health- not just one villainous or virtuous nutrient du jour. We should, indeed, eat food, not too much, mostly plants. The work we need most urgently is about what it will take to get there from here.
As dietary guidance, the vilification of one nutrient at a time has proven as flighty as hummingbirds, propelling us from one version of humbug to another. My advice is to grasp firmly your common sense, and stay grounded.
David Katz MD
Sugar Isn't Evil: A Rebuttal
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-katz-md/sugar-health-evil-toxic_b_850032.html0 -
I stopped at "If you count calories you are doomed to failure."1
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Do they have any studies out there that compare a same deficit (as in a diet deficit of 190 cals and an exercise deficit of 190 cals)?
The Sopkoet study (the last one listed in the table) did pretty much that and as you can see the results are similar.
Clearly an exercise only programme can lead to weight loss. A diet and exercise programme seems to be a preferable method and also generates good results (as the other studies in that table show...)
I understand the point being made by Dr Lustig in a real world application but that is by a rather large amount of reading between the lines and giving him the benefit of the doubt.
My point about exercise being more of a key driver in maintaining rather than losing weight was more a general comment from recollection of the exercise studies I have read...0 -
(Prepares for the roasting)
I am not sure what he said that was wrong. Food quality is awful and plays a part in all sorts of health issues. Vilification of any food group will always be hoodoo, the refuge of a good sales pitch hiding poor or utterly bastardised science.
Exercise doesn't promote weight loss? Well we know it aids loss and, to a greater extent, maintenance of loss. Neither diet nor exercise alone will achieve the results that the two combined will achieve. The details of the studies shown will probably show more caveats and extraneous variables that the results alone will suggest - I haven't read them all, but have read many others.
I'm not sure what the OP sees as ignorance in the posted info.
EDIT: Just read a bit more of Dr Lustig. I see he is writing for a US audience so his views on sugar will be a little off kilter for the UK. We don't tend to have everything dipped/fortified in an unpronounceable something that is effectively a form of sugar. His sugar war is probably quite sound if your access to absolutely unprocessed foods is curtailed by an agri-industry that modifies everything with the food processors adding yet more additives.1 -
The redundant aspirations of dietary dualistic iconoclasts over a span of decades have done us no favors.
This sentence alone explains why 90% diet and fitness information on the web and in the popular media is bullsh!t.2 -
If you enter "Robert Lustig" into google translate you get "Robert Funny"
A cheap shot, but does reflect my opinion of his video.1 -
Counting calories doesn't work?:laugh:
Let me tell you he counts his money from people who pay to read his BS.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness industry for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition1 -
I can see what LOLstig is trying to get at, but he's definitely not explaining things well. And some of what he's saying is just plain wrong.
What he's trying to say is that counting calories while eating a diet of almost 100% junk food will usually lead to long term failure. And that is what we've seen over the past 30 years.
^This!
He's explaining calorie counting like a lot of people try to explain flexible dieting (IIFYM). They make the assumption that everyone is eating non nutritious foods with the goal of not going over a calorie limit. Obviously, this is wrong and misleading information.2 -
Oh I don't know.
I sometimes look at 'diet food' and am always surprised at how much non food food you can get into a small pot!
No fat yoghurt or cheese for example - I mean, please... how is that possible?
People who got fat on processed and ready made meals will probably look to similar products when calorie counting. The packaging makes it easy to count and the 'ping' convenience remains. WW etc make a fortune, so it obviously makes sound business sense.
Repeat custom of both groups and supermarket shelves suggests the diet/foodstuffs may not be as successful.0 -
ahamm002: Exactly my point too. Someone of his experience and education should understand that such comments are not clear. He makes such bold statements and yet provides such hippie arguments it makes redundant everything he said, some of which was accurate, surprisingly given the nature of the above quotes. How does "exercise" cause fat loss and muscle gain? How does he propose an individual to lose fat on a caloric surplus or muscle gain at a caloric deficit (except in certain cases eg a complete beginner etc) if protein levels are very low?
stefjc: See some of the comments above, but please explain how a calorie, as a unit of measurement, is not equal to another calorie. In fact, provide me a study which shows that, as a unit of measurement, 100ml of hot water is not equal to 100ml of cold water; or that 1lb of muscle weighs more than 1lb of fat. While you're at it, show me that exercise would not promote weight loss when caloric intake is at maintenance and the exercise would induce a negative energy balance. Furthermore, show me that exercise would not promote fat loss specifically when caloric intake is at maintenance, protein levels are around 0.8/lb of lean body mass, micronutrient needs are met, the exercise is a structured weight training program and finally the addition of the exercise induces a negative energy balance.
In terms of body composition, fat loss and muscle gain, 1 calorie from carb may or may not be the same as 1 calorie from protein in a study that does not control any external factors such as exercise level, caloric intake, macronutrient intake, level of fitness etc. But in a study where all of these are controlled and kept consisted (which is exactly what we are all trying to do using this website) it does not matter whether that calories comes from chicken breast or olive oil. When macronutrient levels are kept adequate and constant, along with level and type of activity and the level of fitness of the participants, in a caloric surplus they will gain weight and in a caloric deficit they will lose weight.
The geographical location is irrelevant. The UK has a problem with obesity, CHD, cancer, diabetes and other fatal health problems, just like many other countries, including the UK.1 -
Just heard a quote from a leading expert in pediatric endocrinology. In a discussion with a lecturer about sugar, fructose and calories:
RL: [Health care professionals] need to explain that a calorie is not a calorie. All calories are not the same. If you count calories you are doomed to failure. And that is what we have seen for the last 30 years. That is not what the companies that espouse this would have you believe. They believe well that if a calorie is a calorie, then you get to choose your calories. And if you are what you eat, everyone gets to choose what they eat. The fact of the matter is, if the calorie is not a calorie then it really does matter, the food quality determines the quality. And the problem is that our food quality right now is just god-awful.
Lecturer: Plus they tell you can always exercise it away.
RF: And you can’t. The fact is, that there’s not one study, not one study, anywhere in the world’s literature, that shows that exercise promotes weight loss. Why is that? Because it causes fat loss but muscle gain. Muscle ended up weighing more than fat and so there are no studies that showing weight loss, it clearly promotes metabolic health and I am all for it. But know what it’s for, if you expect to lose weight by exercising, by seeing it on the scale, you will be sorely disappointed.
Very surprised to hear such an ignorant comment (especially in a online course about nutrition). It's comments like this that lead to confusion among almost everyone who wants to start to lose weight and get fitter and healthier. He makes no other important aspects of exercise, particularly body composition and health which is what 99% of people are after.
What these guys are saying is not stupid...
I interpret it this way:
If you only keep track of the number of calories you eat, your chance of getting a balanced diet is slim. You need to count calories, protein, fats, and carbs!
And the part about not losing weight from weight training: it's true...if you eat a surplus, and work out, you will gain muscle, but you will not lose fat. You have to "diet" (which means eating a couple hundred calories under your baseline + workout calories). Example: If my daily amount needed before exercise is 2600 calories, and I burn 300 calories exercising, I'm not going to lose weight if I eat 3000 calories that day. However, if I eat 2700, I will lose fat in a slow, healthy manner. Of course, the exception to this is if I'm eating exactly the amount I need (2900). In that case, my body will try to add muscle, but it will also catabolize some muscle after it's built. Net affect: some fat loss.
There are also things you can do to disrupt normal metabolism/hormonal balance if your macros and/or calories are off kilter. I believe this can cause fat gain even on a "defecit" in some cases.
I really think that's all they're saying. Don't read into it.0 -
I've lost weight by way of exercise only. It took me 3.5 years but I lost weight and gained muscle. Most of the studies done regarding exercise vs. calorie deficit are not long term. They are usual a couple of months and never long term. Even though I was overweight at the time, my goal was to control my health, blood pressure, cholesterol, etc and I knew I had to tackle one thing at a time. I'm not good a multi-tasking.
I took my cues from watching and observing fast moving streams and rivers, especially those in high altitudes, the faster the water, the clearer the water ran, or so it appeared. Fast moving water seems to clear out the gunk and sediment in the water so I transferred that observation to what happens to my blood when I'm working out (don't know if that really translates well but that was my motivation). The first 3.5 years I lost inches and dropped three dress sizes. Thenbetween 3.5 and 4 yrs I dropped forty pounds. I don't know when that exactly happened because I wasn't weighing myself and I pursued my journey unannounced. I weighted myself when a newly purchased 2 piece dress skirt fell to the floor when I put it on. I had dropped 3 dress sizes betweeen the time I purchased the dress and when I decided to wear it. In total, I went from a size 22 to a size 10.
Another thing happend, my cravings deminished and my insatiable appitite calmed down. I believe I was overfed and undernourished (I have no scientific facts to back me up) and as my blood flow ramped up, clearing out all the fat and "sediment" in my blood stream, my body was able to dilevery to my cells the nutrients that it needed because like a fast moving stream/river, there was no sediment to block the micronutrients from entering my body.0 -
I've lost weight by way of exercise only. It took me 3.5 years but I lost weight and gained muscle. Most of the studies done regarding exercise vs. calorie deficit are not long term. They are usual a couple of months and never long term. Even though I was overweight at the time, my goal was to control my health, blood pressure, cholesterol, etc and I knew I had to tackle one thing at a time. I'm not good a multi-tasking.
I took my cues from watching and observing fast moving streams and rivers, especially those in high altitudes, the faster the water, the clearer the water ran, or so it appeared. Fast moving water seems to clear out the gunk and sediment in the water so I transferred that observation to what happens to my blood when I'm working out (don't know if that really translates well but that was my motivation). The first 3.5 years I lost inches and dropped three dress sizes. Thenbetween 3.5 and 4 yrs I dropped forty pounds. I don't know when that exactly happened because I wasn't weighing myself and I pursued my journey unannounced. I weighted myself when a newly purchased 2 piece dress skirt fell to the floor when I put it on. I had dropped 3 dress sizes betweeen the time I purchased the dress and when I decided to wear it. In total, I went from a size 22 to a size 10.
Another thing happend, my cravings deminished and my insatiable appitite calmed down. I believe I was overfed and undernourished (I have no scientific facts to back me up) and as my blood flow ramped up, clearing out all the fat and "sediment" in my blood stream, my body was able to dilevery to my cells the nutrients that it needed because like a fast moving stream/river, there was no sediment to block the micronutrients from entering my body.
Do you still experience the feeling of hunger the same? Or has it changed?0 -
No, I don't. I think I was ravenous before because my body was craving nutrients it couldn't get. My skin, my hair, etc improved tremendously after I began exercising. In fact although I am not suppose to fast, I can do it without feeling like I'm going to eat an elephant if one passed by. My body can handle extremes in cold and heat better, My skin would crack in the winter time, now it doesn't I suffered from bad sinus attacks three/four times a year, now if I get one a year that's a lot.
I get annoyed when people say you can't lose weight by exercise alone because I'm proof that it can happen. Granted my appetite changed as I advanced further into my exercise routine (I started out fast walking and could only do 15 minutes before I became winded). I also gained fourteen pounds during the first 8/12 weeks when I began walking (Started Feb 24th, 2006 because I couldn't do anything else. I now consider myself an exergamer using Video Games (EASA2.0; Get Fit Well B, and now using an awesome Wii-U workout Your Shape Fitness Evolved 2013. I average about 8 to 10 hours a week working out because I'm having fun and I enjoy the results.
Hope this helps.0 -
Haroon, I'd answer that, but as I did not claim anything you infer I did I don't see the point.
I too don't see that a professional talking to other professionals needs to couch his words in a manner that the man on the street needs to understand. I don't agree with all that he said, but I do think he outlined the problems with the dietary business. Simply that a calorie is a calorie as a statement is too simple and does not take into account the psychology of diet or the physiology of calorie intake. His viewpoint can be supported by science, most viewpoints can - hence the wide and varied theories and commercial diets.
As for geography not being of any matter... I agree that the rise of obesity in Europe is alarming, but it too calls into question the quality of food.
I'd ask again about fat free cheese - not something we have here. It always surprises me when I use a US centric kcal calculator. There are so many non food food items. These, in my opinion, simply makes the nutrition knowledge gap even wider. That in turn makes sensible and normal eating nigh on impossible.0 -
I get annoyed when people say you can't lose weight by exercise alone because I'm proof that it can happen.
Technically, you can't. Weight loss requires a calorie deficit. Exercise does not necessarily imply said deficit. If you are eating slightly above maintenance and then add enough exercise without changing eating, yes you will lose weight as you have now created a calorie deficit. You can lose weight by changing nothing but your exercise, and I don't think anyone is disagreeing that this is possible, but you have to be careful to change nothing else. People are terrible at knowing how much they eat, so it is very easy to start eating more when you start exercising, even if you think you aren't. It can be done, but it is difficult. Grats on having the focus to be able to pull it off.0 -
I get annoyed when people say you can't lose weight by exercise alone because I'm proof that it can happen.
Technically, you can't. Weight loss requires a calorie deficit. Exercise does not necessarily imply said deficit. If you are eating slightly above maintenance and then add enough exercise without changing eating, yes you will lose weight as you have now created a calorie deficit. You can lose weight by changing nothing but your exercise, and I don't think anyone is disagreeing that this is possible, but you have to be careful to change nothing else. People are terrible at knowing how much they eat, so it is very easy to start eating more when you start exercising, even if you think you aren't. It can be done, but it is difficult. Grats on having the focus to be able to pull it off.
If you go back and reread what I wrote, you will see that my eating habits did change once I spent time getting fit and improving my health. I clearly stated that my cravings diminished and why, although not scientific or backed by research study, I lost weight. It happened over a period of 3.5 years.
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I get annoyed when people say you can't lose weight by exercise alone because I'm proof that it can happen.
Technically, you can't. Weight loss requires a calorie deficit. Exercise does not necessarily imply said deficit. If you are eating slightly above maintenance and then add enough exercise without changing eating, yes you will lose weight as you have now created a calorie deficit. You can lose weight by changing nothing but your exercise, and I don't think anyone is disagreeing that this is possible, but you have to be careful to change nothing else. People are terrible at knowing how much they eat, so it is very easy to start eating more when you start exercising, even if you think you aren't. It can be done, but it is difficult. Grats on having the focus to be able to pull it off.
If you go back and reread what I wrote, you will see that my eating habits did change once I spent time getting fit and improving my health. I clearly stated that my cravings diminished and why, although not scientific or backed by research study, I lost weight. It happened over a period of 3.5 years.
And if you read what I wrote, you'll see that I congratulated you on having the dedication to pull that off. Didn't say it was impossible, just hard.0 -
Here's the break-down of Lustig's stuff, it's simple, doesn't require any magic, and remembering that almost all advice out there (except his) excludes BEHAVIOUR.
1. A Calorie is not a Calorie. Why? Sugar messes with appetite and satiety. You end up consuming more Calories than you otherwise would, to feel full. Then you get fatter.
2. Exercise doesn't lead to weight loss. Why? Behaviour. Remember the behaviour golden rule: Calorie deficit --> Hunger --> Eat. Did you get your Calorie deficit from exercise or from eating less than normal/baseline? It matters not. As others have said on here, exercising burns calories. That leads to hunger. If your current response to hunger is to eat, and you don't change that response, you will maintain your weight. Calories burned by exercise (or by being alive, for instance) aren't free or magical. The loss of them leads to hunger. How will you deal with that?
Clearly, for #2, if you are in a Calorie-controlled (counting) situation, you can generate weight-loss. That's called a diet, you're eating less than your body wants. But WHO REALLY IS? Most of us eat until we are no longer hungry. That is the key.
Overall solution: Don't eat much sugar.5 -
Here's the break-down of Lustig's stuff, it's simple, doesn't require any magic, and remembering that almost all advice out there (except his) excludes BEHAVIOUR.
1. A Calorie is not a Calorie. Why? Sugar messes with appetite and satiety. You end up consuming more Calories than you otherwise would, to feel full. Then you get fatter.
2. Exercise doesn't lead to weight loss. Why? Behaviour. Remember the behaviour golden rule: Calorie deficit --> Hunger --> Eat. Did you get your Calorie deficit from exercise or from eating less than normal/baseline? It matters not. As others have said on here, exercising burns calories. That leads to hunger. If your current response to hunger is to eat, and you don't change that response, you will maintain your weight. Calories burned by exercise (or by being alive, for instance) aren't free or magical. The loss of them leads to hunger. How will you deal with that?
Clearly, for #2, if you are in a Calorie-controlled (counting) situation, you can generate weight-loss. That's called a diet, you're eating less than your body wants. But WHO REALLY IS? Most of us eat until we are no longer hungry. That is the key.
Overall solution: Don't eat much sugar.
Hi newbie! Welcome to MFP! LOLustig1
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