Someone please help me understand why aspartame or Splenda is somehow bad for me?
Replies
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Underlying bias that if anything is enjoyable, it should not be enjoyed. Denying yourself enjoyment is an exercise of discipline, and therefore somehow (illogically) virtuous. And virtue shall be rewarded (illogically) with health. Honestly it's at the real heart of why so many people malign sugar itself. (i.e., unless you have an underlying condition, sugar is not actually bad for you -- TOO MUCH SUGAR is bad for you. Just like food is not bad for you, but too much food is. Sex is not bad for you but irresponsibly risky sex ... risky).
Many people's brains just get fried by nuance. Moderation is too hard to think about. Everything is vice or virtue.
And then you get the thinking that if sugar is enjoyable and bad for you, then artificial sweeteners are somehow "cheating" by letting you have the enjoyment w/o many of the potential health downsides, but CHEATERS if you're enjoying the sweetness, you don't deserve to be healthy so BAD.5 -
The reality in life, is usually people close to you don't really want to acknowledge that they want you to somehow secretly "fail" because your success is a reflection on how undisciplined they are to achieve the same.Underlying bias that if anything is enjoyable, it should not be enjoyed. Denying yourself enjoyment is an exercise of discipline, and therefore somehow (illogically) virtuous. And virtue shall be rewarded (illogically) with health. Honestly it's at the real heart of why so many people malign sugar itself. (i.e., unless you have an underlying condition, sugar is not actually bad for you -- TOO MUCH SUGAR is bad for you. Just like food is not bad for you, but too much food is. Sex is not bad for you but irresponsibly risky sex ... risky).
Many people's brains just get fried by nuance. Moderation is too hard to think about. Everything is vice or virtue.
And then you get the thinking that if sugar is enjoyable and bad for you, then artificial sweeteners are somehow "cheating" by letting you have the enjoyment w/o many of the potential health downsides, but CHEATERS if you're enjoying the sweetness, you don't deserve to be healthy so BAD.
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It's because of physiological differences between dogs and humans. Xylitol isn't toxic to humans, and there might even be a few health benefits (dental health, fewer ear infections). Though too much can cause, um, bathroom and gas issues. Some other common foods are the same way, like chocoolate (fine for humans, toxic to dogs and cats).4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »If you care about natural vs. artificial, there are natural sweeteners too, including stevia (Truvia), monkfruit, xylitol, and erythritol. But Splenda or any other approved sweetener is fine in moderation too. I use different sweeteners depending on what I'm sweetening - some seem to work better for particular foods than others. I agree with the "fearmongering" post, btw. Just adding this because sometimes people think every non-sugar sweetener is artificial.
Fwiw, things aren't necessarily safe because they're natural, or dangerous because they're artificial.
Actually, this kinda made me think, apologies this is a bit left field, but still a little related. Everyones issue with aspertame seems to be centered around the fact that high quantities gave rodents brain tumors. No one ever seems concerned about human consumption of xylitol which is highly toxic to dogs. Not that I think they should necessarily, but if you are going to worry about one why not the other.
This is precisely why i started having xylitol, my dentist recommended it to me.2 -
@Dudebro200 said...
I have consumed salty chlorine since I was born. I havent had any issues with that.
I'm not saying people shouldn't...but salt occurs in nature...splenda doesn't. That matters to some people Splenda makes me quite ill, so I don't use it. Truvia doesn't bother me, so I use it sometimes. I've had the opportunity to purchase naturally occuring truvia (stevia leaf) in my community. I like that, though I know the processed product has other ingrediants. Aspartame doesn't bother me but I'm trying to reduce it in my diet, for many reasons.
I really just think we should know what our foods/additives are made from...carmine, anyone?0 -
She's got it right. Most of the studies done on Aspartame and Splenda were performed on rats with unrealistic doses that no human in their right mind would consume. There is a reason why rat studies are not the most reliable for nutritional information because the gene expression and metabolism of rats is far different than the metabolism of humans in several ways, but conveniently when someone shows that such and such a thing causes something to happen to rats, they omit that part:https://examine.com/nutrition/is-diet-soda-bad-for-you/
If diet soda doesn't rest well with you, then don't drink it, but don't think you have to take it out because some clean eating guru told you so.4 -
dudebro200 wrote: »For almost 16 years, I have been drinking diet soda (prefer water however), and putting Splenda in my oatmeal, my coffee and anything that uses sugar in cooking.
I get a lot frowns from my whole-foods elitists friends who proceed to dump many grams of sugar into their lattes and teas.
If I drink regular Coke or coffee with sugar syrup, it tastes super sweet to me and I almost can't handle it.
How can someone judge me when they are consuming 200 units of empty calories and I consume 0? I am in better shape and look younger, but I am the unhealthy one because I consume aspartame?
I don't think either you or your friends are 'the unhealthy one'
Nothing wrong with aspartame in sensible amounts but nothing wrong with sugar in sensible amounts either
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4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »
Actually, this kinda made me think, apologies this is a bit left field, but still a little related. Everyones issue with aspertame seems to be centered around the fact that high quantities gave rodents brain tumors. No one ever seems concerned about human consumption of xylitol which is highly toxic to dogs. Not that I think they should necessarily, but if you are going to worry about one why not the other.
Yeah but chocolate, grapes, and onions are toxic to dogs too. And I am not giving up any of that.
Dogs have the issue with processing those foods in their livers or kidneys (can't remember which). It's a sudden thing due to toxicity, not a long term effect like cancer/tumors.
My opinion is against artificial sweeteners except for very rare occasions.2 -
I wrote a term paper on aspartame. I read through at least 30 scholarly published research studies from a bunch of sources, including meta analyses of the studies. I was expecting to find overwhelming evidence that aspartame was carcinogenic. What I found was almost all of the rat studies saying aspartame is harmful was conducted by the SAME team . The other couple dozen teams had no substantial correlation between aspartame and cancer. I saw a lot of studies proving placebo effect due to expectations. Some people really can't process it due to a specific condition, but most people aren't effected by it. By the time I had finished the paper, I decided it wasn't worth it to go out of my way to avoid the stuff. I'm not saying is great for you, but I haven't been convinced that it's bad yet either.7
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Why waste time on artificial sweeteners when real sugar is probably better for you? At least then you can argue it's natural lol0
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It's got more calories. If someone is trying to lose weight, there are lower-calorie alternatives. Some of them are even natural ones. It's also bad for teeth.MaddMaestro wrote: »Why waste time on artificial sweeteners when real sugar is probably better for you? At least then you can argue it's natural lol
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MaddMaestro wrote: »Why waste time on artificial sweeteners when real sugar is probably better for you? At least then you can argue it's natural lol
Umm, because we are on a calorie budget and one way to cut them is to substitute sugary drinks or sugar in coffee or foods with artificial sweeteners or artificially sweetened products.2 -
Yeah, fooling themselves by consuming coconut sugar/agave/honey because it is "better than sugar" even though it is still sugar.Christine_72 wrote: »They probably think they're "better" because they consume natural sugar V your artificial sugar. Personally i just use real sugar, everything in moderation, right? I've also recently started using xylitol every now and then, that is the extent of my AS usage thus far.
I have never had aspartame, and probably never will.
I personally like aspartame, xylitol, and Splenda. Stevia tastes absolutely awful to me (unless it is the ground leaves of the stevia plant).
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MaddMaestro wrote: »Why waste time on artificial sweeteners when real sugar is probably better for you? At least then you can argue it's natural lol
Because my body struggles with sugars. Sugar in solids are slightly better than in liquid form. I really dont enjoy loosing conciousness
The fun part is some days randomly my blood sugars will plummet to around 1
Medical staff being helpful will give glucose gel and wonder why im not waking up
I dont give the furry crack of a rats behind what other folks eat. Doesnt impact on my day, year, life so why sweat it1 -
ruqayyahsmum wrote: »MaddMaestro wrote: »Why waste time on artificial sweeteners when real sugar is probably better for you? At least then you can argue it's natural lol
Because my body struggles with sugars. Sugar in solids are slightly better than in liquid form. I really dont enjoy loosing conciousness
The fun part is some days randomly my blood sugars will plummet to around 1
Medical staff being helpful will give glucose gel and wonder why im not waking up
I dont give the furry crack of a rats behind what other folks eat. Doesnt impact on my day, year, life so why sweat it
That sounds terrible! I mean what wakes you up if not glucose gel? I don't know if this is a new problem for you or if it is something you have always had. If it's new have they ruled out an insulin producing tumor? Have you considered a continuous blood glucose monitor? (I am assuming you have not seen these yet, if you have then disregard) They have these patches you wear which keep continuous check on your glucose and when it gets low it alerts you. So maybe you can avoid passing out. Also you can set it up to alert people of your choosing should you bottom out when you are alone unable to call for help. It may be worth checking into with such severe hypoglycemia.
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I choose to avoid sweeteners when I can because (and this is mostly anecdotal, but there have been studies to support it) it HUGELY spikes my appetite when I eat them consistently. I'm on the keto diet for medical reasons (systemic inflammation) and use it to lose weight as well, but I recently made a bunch of low-carb cookies and cakes and all of a sudden I gained 5 pounds in water weight and was eating EVERYTHING. I was constantly hungry and couldn't get my appetite under control. Not to mention, my acne (which had been under control in keto) came back like crazy.
I know this is purely my experience and I can't speak for everyone, but when I avoid artificial sweeteners, I find that my appetite is much more stable, my moods are level, and I don't bloat as easily. Of course, I still indulge every now and again. Just not a daily affair.0 -
ThatUserNameIsAllReadyTaken wrote: »ruqayyahsmum wrote: »MaddMaestro wrote: »Why waste time on artificial sweeteners when real sugar is probably better for you? At least then you can argue it's natural lol
Because my body struggles with sugars. Sugar in solids are slightly better than in liquid form. I really dont enjoy loosing conciousness
The fun part is some days randomly my blood sugars will plummet to around 1
Medical staff being helpful will give glucose gel and wonder why im not waking up
I dont give the furry crack of a rats behind what other folks eat. Doesnt impact on my day, year, life so why sweat it
That sounds terrible! I mean what wakes you up if not glucose gel? I don't know if this is a new problem for you or if it is something you have always had. If it's new have they ruled out an insulin producing tumor? Have you considered a continuous blood glucose monitor? (I am assuming you have not seen these yet, if you have then disregard) They have these patches you wear which keep continuous check on your glucose and when it gets low it alerts you. So maybe you can avoid passing out. Also you can set it up to alert people of your choosing should you bottom out when you are alone unable to call for help. It may be worth checking into with such severe hypoglycemia.
It has to be given intravenously if im not at least semi concious. If i am then orange juice and toast followed by a sandwich and monitoring
I was blown off by my gp and consultants until i had an episode in hospital with a student nurse. Frightened the life out the poor girl. After that it was decided i needed to eat little and often by a diabetic nurse (im not diabetic, sugars are never high)
One health care assistant brought me a bowl of what she insisted was low sugar fruit yogurt
Waking up an hour later they told me the yogurt had 28g of sugar in it. Fun times
I know now when its starting to dip as i get dizzy and shaky. A slice of toast with jam will pull it back. If i start to get cold and sweat buckets then i need the orange juice with toast and a sarnie4 -
That's great. So as long as us BIG animals consume it in much much smaller portions than the very very small animals, we should be okay.
Artificial sweeteners are the MOST STUDIED additives on the market. There are decades of study on it.walkingforward wrote: »Christine_72 wrote: »4legsRbetterthan2 wrote: »If you care about natural vs. artificial, there are natural sweeteners too, including stevia (Truvia), monkfruit, xylitol, and erythritol. But Splenda or any other approved sweetener is fine in moderation too. I use different sweeteners depending on what I'm sweetening - some seem to work better for particular foods than others. I agree with the "fearmongering" post, btw. Just adding this because sometimes people think every non-sugar sweetener is artificial.
Fwiw, things aren't necessarily safe because they're natural, or dangerous because they're artificial.
Actually, this kinda made me think, apologies this is a bit left field, but still a little related. Everyones issue with aspertame seems to be centered around the fact that high quantities gave rodents brain tumors. No one ever seems concerned about human consumption of xylitol which is highly toxic to dogs. Not that I think they should necessarily, but if you are going to worry about one why not the other.
I dont really know what it is about aspartame that makes me avoid it.. I have no scientific explanation, it's just a gut feel.
I'm avoiding for the above reason (gut feel). Just because things are unknown about something does not mean it is ok or not ok. From Wikipedia article "mercury use was thought to prolong life, heal fractures, and maintain generally good health, although it is now known that exposure to mercury vapor leads to serious adverse health effects". Who knows what we will know about aspartame, or anything else in 10 years or 100 years.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
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A vast majority of those studies were done in very very large doses on very very small mammals. MODERATION. Moderation.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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So does nightshade and poisonous mushrooms. "Nature" can be just as destructive to the body when you give it a chance. It's such a cop out for "naturalists" to use this statement to justify that artificial/synthetic additives are "poisonous" to the body. Lol, bread, pizza, lassagne, tofu, etc. don't "exist" naturally either (can't pick it from a tree or pull it from the ground) so by in large, "naturalists" shouldn't even bother with any foods not grown by them specifically.melaniedscott wrote: »@Dudebro200 said...
I have consumed salty chlorine since I was born. I havent had any issues with that.
I'm not saying people shouldn't...but salt occurs in nature...splenda doesn't. That matters to some people Splenda makes me quite ill, so I don't use it. Truvia doesn't bother me, so I use it sometimes. I've had the opportunity to purchase naturally occuring truvia (stevia leaf) in my community. I like that, though I know the processed product has other ingrediants. Aspartame doesn't bother me but I'm trying to reduce it in my diet, for many reasons.
I really just think we should know what our foods/additives are made from...carmine, anyone?
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Calorie budgets? A 160z can of regular Pepsi for me is 120 calories. Drink 2 or 3 in a day and that's a decent percentage of something I can actually EAT. Diet Pepsi though..........0 calories. So now I don't have to "waste" time doing 120 calories expenditure worth of exercise to compensate for the can of regular Pepsi.MaddMaestro wrote: »Why waste time on artificial sweeteners when real sugar is probably better for you? At least then you can argue it's natural lol
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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Carbs can raise your insulin quite dramatically, especially if you don't consume them often. Weight gain comes from the influx of water and conversion of sugar to glycogen filling up the depleted cells from keto diet. And diet drinks DON'T raise insulin the same, so really your issue is with the psychological aspect of it and likely not a physical one.thecubanskiier wrote: »I choose to avoid sweeteners when I can because (and this is mostly anecdotal, but there have been studies to support it) it HUGELY spikes my appetite when I eat them consistently. I'm on the keto diet for medical reasons (systemic inflammation) and use it to lose weight as well, but I recently made a bunch of low-carb cookies and cakes and all of a sudden I gained 5 pounds in water weight and was eating EVERYTHING. I was constantly hungry and couldn't get my appetite under control. Not to mention, my acne (which had been under control in keto) came back like crazy.
I know this is purely my experience and I can't speak for everyone, but when I avoid artificial sweeteners, I find that my appetite is much more stable, my moods are level, and I don't bloat as easily. Of course, I still indulge every now and again. Just not a daily affair.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
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People will always invent ways to feel superior. It's human nature1
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dudebro200 wrote: »For almost 16 years, I have been drinking diet soda (prefer water however), and putting Splenda in my oatmeal, my coffee and anything that uses sugar in cooking.
I get a lot frowns from my whole-foods elitists friends who proceed to dump many grams of sugar into their lattes and teas.
If I drink regular Coke or coffee with sugar syrup, it tastes super sweet to me and I almost can't handle it.
How can someone judge me when they are consuming 200 units of empty calories and I consume 0? I am in better shape and look younger, but I am the unhealthy one because I consume aspartame?
Aspartame does not fit a whole food elitist's idea of "healthy" as it is not "natural" I assume.
They are your friends. You know they are food judgey... why are you surprised they judge negatively what you consume that is different than them? You seem kind of judgemental about sugar consumption so maybe you are all being negative on the topic.
I avoid consuming artificial sweeteners because they trigger migraines for me and taste odd to me. If other people want to consume them I don't think they are unhealthy. I personally don't go crazy with sweeteners of any kind anyway so you are all kind of weird to me wanting all these sweet foods and drinks.
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it depends on your genetics. If you have problems metabolizing phenyl amino acids (phenyl alanine), it is bad for you.
if the item in question has reached the temperature of boiling water or been at high temperature for a few hours (eg sat in a hot car), then the aspartame can break down into its constituent amino acids releasing methanol (wood alcohol), which turns into formaldehyde in the liver and is neurotoxic and a carcinogen. Small amount but can add up if you drink a lot of diet soda.
If neither applies, you are good to go.
There are some studies suggesting people who eat artificial sweeteners lose weight more slowly than those who don't, but I don't think that finding is peculiar to aspartame. You'd have to use "google scholar" to get details pertinent to your situation. It may just be the psychological effect of "no calories in the soda means I can put sour cream on my burrito bowl".1 -
MaddMaestro wrote: »Why waste time on artificial sweeteners when real sugar is probably better for you? At least then you can argue it's natural lol
The natural fallacy. Natural does not always mean better or safer. I'm not a big artificial sweetener person because it's not really sweet tasting in most uses to me. (Splenda seems to be the best)
But some natural things are actually poison.0 -
Artificial is just that artificial. The body doesn't recognize them and can cause actual weight gain, like most diet products. If you are concerned research and learn. Do it for you not bc of your friends. I found stevia in the raw works for me. Aspartame I cannot consume bc it's causes me upset stomach and it's been linked to cause cancer, migraine, weight gain etc. and some studies show a link between its affect on autoimmune disease. Should not be consumed by individuals with pkd (containing phenylalanine) who have tardive dyskinisia or schizophrenia as it can affect medicine for it and make effects worse.
It's really up to you to make the call what's right for you not anyone else and make an informed decision what you wish to put in your body. I choose not to use artificial sweeteners but I don't push that onto anyone else if they want to know they ask. And that's that. Blessings on your journey1 -
angelexperiment wrote: »Artificial is just that artificial. The body doesn't recognize them and can cause actual weight gain, like most diet products. If you are concerned research and learn. Do it for you not bc of your friends. I found stevia in the raw works for me. Aspartame I cannot consume bc it's causes me upset stomach and it's been linked to cause cancer, migraine, weight gain etc. and some studies show a link between its affect on autoimmune disease. Should not be consumed by individuals with pkd (containing phenylalanine) who have tardive dyskinisia or schizophrenia as it can affect medicine for it and make effects worse.
It's really up to you to make the call what's right for you not anyone else and make an informed decision what you wish to put in your body. I choose not to use artificial sweeteners but I don't push that onto anyone else if they want to know they ask. And that's that. Blessings on your journey
This was posted upthread by @LucasWilland: https://examine.com/nutrition/is-diet-soda-bad-for-you/
Aspartame isn't as unnatural as you think. Do what you want, but the reasons you mentioned are mostly false.2 -
Get new friends OP.1
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angelexperiment wrote: »Artificial is just that artificial. The body doesn't recognize them and can cause actual weight gain, like most diet products. If you are concerned research and learn. Do it for you not bc of your friends. I found stevia in the raw works for me. Aspartame I cannot consume bc it's causes me upset stomach and it's been linked to cause cancer, migraine, weight gain etc. and some studies show a link between its affect on autoimmune disease. Should not be consumed by individuals with pkd (containing phenylalanine) who have tardive dyskinisia or schizophrenia as it can affect medicine for it and make effects worse.
It's really up to you to make the call what's right for you not anyone else and make an informed decision what you wish to put in your body. I choose not to use artificial sweeteners but I don't push that onto anyone else if they want to know they ask. And that's that. Blessings on your journey
This response is exactly what I was talking about as the OP. Where can research and learn without being subjected to unverified claims ?0 -
Aspartame has been subject to more scare stories than any other sweetener, ranging from allergies and premature births to liver damage and cancer.
It is low calorie and up to 200 times sweeter than sugar. Aspartame is used all over the world as a sugar substitute in thousands of foods and drinks, including cereals, sugar-free chewing gum, low-calorie (diet) soft drinks and table-top sweeteners.
Aspartame has been extremely controversial since its approval for use by several European countries in the 1980s. A 1996 report suggested a link between aspartame and an increase in the number of diagnosed brain tumours. However, the study had very little scientific basis and later studies showed that aspartame was in fact safe to consume.
The European Ramazzini Foundation of Oncology and Environmental Sciences published several long-term studies in 2006 and 2007 linking the consumption of aspartame with an increase in cancers – namely lymphomas and leukaemias – in rats.
Following these studies, the US National Cancer Institute conducted a study of nearly half a million people, comparing those who consumed drinks containing aspartame with those who did not. Results of the 2006 study (PDF, 87kb) found aspartame did not increase the risk of leukaemia, lymphoma or brain cancer.
In 2013 the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) conducted a comprehensive review of the evidence (PDF, 2.25Mb) and concluded that aspartame was safe for human consumption, including pregnant women and children.
In digestion, aspartame is quickly and completely broken down into by-products – including phenylalanine, aspartic acid and methanol – which then enter our system through normal routes. Hardly any aspartame enters the bloodstream.
However, the EFSA said the acceptable daily intake recommendations did not apply to people with phenylketonuria (PKU), a rare genetic disorder where the body cannot break down phenylalanine. People with this condition need to closely monitor their phenylalanine intake.
The EFSA report stated that, "PKU mothers with poorly controlled phenylalanine intake in their diet during pregnancy may give birth to babies with congenital heart diseases, microcephalus and impaired neurological function."
It is worth noting that phenylalanine occurs naturally in many protein-rich foods, such as milk, eggs and meat. Table-top sweeteners containing aspartame or aspartame-acesulfame K must be marked with "contains a source of phenylalanine".
Acceptable daily intake: 40mg per kg of body weight3 -
ruqayyahsmum wrote: »ThatUserNameIsAllReadyTaken wrote: »ruqayyahsmum wrote: »MaddMaestro wrote: »Why waste time on artificial sweeteners when real sugar is probably better for you? At least then you can argue it's natural lol
Because my body struggles with sugars. Sugar in solids are slightly better than in liquid form. I really dont enjoy loosing conciousness
The fun part is some days randomly my blood sugars will plummet to around 1
Medical staff being helpful will give glucose gel and wonder why im not waking up
I dont give the furry crack of a rats behind what other folks eat. Doesnt impact on my day, year, life so why sweat it
That sounds terrible! I mean what wakes you up if not glucose gel? I don't know if this is a new problem for you or if it is something you have always had. If it's new have they ruled out an insulin producing tumor? Have you considered a continuous blood glucose monitor? (I am assuming you have not seen these yet, if you have then disregard) They have these patches you wear which keep continuous check on your glucose and when it gets low it alerts you. So maybe you can avoid passing out. Also you can set it up to alert people of your choosing should you bottom out when you are alone unable to call for help. It may be worth checking into with such severe hypoglycemia.
It has to be given intravenously if im not at least semi concious. If i am then orange juice and toast followed by a sandwich and monitoring
I was blown off by my gp and consultants until i had an episode in hospital with a student nurse. Frightened the life out the poor girl. After that it was decided i needed to eat little and often by a diabetic nurse (im not diabetic, sugars are never high)
One health care assistant brought me a bowl of what she insisted was low sugar fruit yogurt
Waking up an hour later they told me the yogurt had 28g of sugar in it. Fun times
I know now when its starting to dip as i get dizzy and shaky. A slice of toast with jam will pull it back. If i start to get cold and sweat buckets then i need the orange juice with toast and a sarnie
Just want to add, I suggested the continuous glucose monitor because you mentioned passing out and needing intravenous glucose. (The fun part is some days randomly my blood sugars will plummet to around 1)
If you pass out then you are missing signals some of the time. If this ever happens while you are driving you will definitely become a danger to yourself and others. A continuous glucose monitor will likely prevent you from missing signals and then passing out, you would see it coming at least soon enough to pull over and have some glucose tablets or call for help or whatever you need. I encourage you to push for answers. I mentioned that an insulin producing tumor could be at the root of this. If they have not checked for this put your foot down and stand your ground until they do. Even if you don't have one you will at least have that possibility stricken from the list.1
This discussion has been closed.
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