Is 5/3/1 big and beyond -good for muscle building as well?

viren19890

Hello all,

As my cut comes to an end- I'd like to regain strength which went down somewhat.

I'd like to put in as much lean muscle mass as possible until Nov 1-2017 .

How do I start with it?

I've used 5/3/1 and my numbers went up. Do you guys think that's a suitable program for my goals ? muscle mass? or muscle is purely dependent on calories in ?



TIA

Gallowmere1984

Moderate caloric surplus, along with 5/3/1 with BBB Less Boring accessories gave me pretty solid results.

Just a random example week of what I was doing (this was a 5/3/1 week, obviously):

Day 49: 2/23/17
Bench Press: 5x80/5x100/3x120/5x150/3x170/1+x190-5 completed
Shoulder Rows: 10x90x5
Overhead Press: 10x85x5
Chin ups: 15xwg/15xpg/14xpg/13xrg/10xwg/12xrg
Weighted Ab Crunch: 10x70x5
Dips: 16/12/9

Day 50: 2/25/17
Deadlift: 5x160/5x200/3x240/5x300/3x340/1+x375-2 completed
Chin ups: 12xwg/17xpg/17xrg/15xpg/14xsg/18xrg
Back Squat: 10x160x5
Leg Curl: 10x130x5
Cable Crunches: 15x85x5

Day 51: 2/26/17
Overhead Press: 5x55/5x70/3x85/5x105/3x120/1x+130-4 completed
Bench Press: 10x120x5
Chin ups: 15x1wg/18x1pg/16x1rg/10x1sg/14x1pg
DB Row: 10x80x5
DB Side Bends: 10x80x5

Day 52: 2/28/17
Back Squat: 5x110/5x135/3x160/5x200/3x225/1+x255-3 completed
Deadlift: 10x240x5
Chin ups: 20x1pg/16x1rg/12x1pg/11x1sg/12x1pg
Leg Press: 10x315x5
Ab Wheel: 5xMAX: 21/16/12/12/9

Also, I clearly like chins way too much, so you can definitely reduce that as desired. I'm a fan of a big back though.

viren19890

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

Moderate caloric surplus, along with 5/3/1 with BBB Less Boring accessories gave me pretty solid results.

Just a random example week of what I was doing (this was a 5/3/1 week, obviously):

Day 49: 2/23/17
Bench Press: 5x80/5x100/3x120/5x150/3x170/1+x190-5 completed
Shoulder Rows: 10x90x5
Overhead Press: 10x85x5
Chin ups: 15xwg/15xpg/14xpg/13xrg/10xwg/12xrg
Weighted Ab Crunch: 10x70x5
Dips: 16/12/9

Day 50: 2/25/17
Deadlift: 5x160/5x200/3x240/5x300/3x340/1+x375-2 completed
Chin ups: 12xwg/17xpg/17xrg/15xpg/14xsg/18xrg
Back Squat: 10x160x5
Leg Curl: 10x130x5
Cable Crunches: 15x85x5

Day 51: 2/26/17
Overhead Press: 5x55/5x70/3x85/5x105/3x120/1x+130-4 completed
Bench Press: 10x120x5
Chin ups: 15x1wg/18x1pg/16x1rg/10x1sg/14x1pg
DB Row: 10x80x5
DB Side Bends: 10x80x5

Day 52: 2/28/17
Back Squat: 5x110/5x135/3x160/5x200/3x225/1+x255-3 completed
Deadlift: 10x240x5
Chin ups: 20x1pg/16x1rg/12x1pg/11x1sg/12x1pg
Leg Press: 10x315x5
Ab Wheel: 5xMAX: 21/16/12/12/9

Also, I clearly like chins way too much, so you can definitely reduce that as desired. I'm a fan of a big back though.

SO I'm thinking high calories on workout days and low on non-workout days should balance out stuff. Although the saying "muscle is made on rest days" lol won't apply here.

I will do the regular program 4 days of 5/3/1 and then Variant one- which is big but boring lol
or the same rep scheme with variant 4 which is like 50,60,70% of TM and then goes up until week 4 then reset.

Main goal is to just gain as much muscle as possible while staying lean.

I hope my goal is reasonable. I have until Nov 1,2017

Gallowmere1984

I am currently in a bit of a recomp mode myself, as I am on a long but specific time schedule for a meet in December. I have room to gain about 6 lbs. between now and then, but no more if I want to be able to water cut and hit the 165 class.

Really, so long as you keep your diet on point and give the program everything you have, you're going to get results.

Chieflrg

Biggest thing about 5/3/1 is the lack of volume in the optimal range of your 1RM. Along with too many warm up sets. It can be tweaked, but there are way better programs out there that will deliver better results.

Gallowmere1984

Chieflrg wrote: »

Biggest thing about 5/3/1 is the lack of volume in the optimal range of your 1RM. Along with too many warm up sets. It can be tweaked, but there are way better programs out there that will deliver better results.

I do a whole three warm-up sets on the main lift, and nothing for the accessories. The accesory work covers the volume, assuming that you can deal with it. A lot of the time you see people doing the prescribed bare minimum, and never using the more voluminous (and heavier) options.

I swear, I think that most people who run it haven't actually read the book, or any of his additions. They just use an online calc for the main lifts, stick with 40% for the BBB accessories, and think that's all there is to it.

jaypries

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

Chieflrg wrote: »

Biggest thing about 5/3/1 is the lack of volume in the optimal range of your 1RM. Along with too many warm up sets. It can be tweaked, but there are way better programs out there that will deliver better results.

I do a whole three warm-up sets on the main lift, and nothing for the accessories. The accesory work covers the volume, assuming that you can deal with it. A lot of the time you see people doing the prescribed bare minimum, and never using the more voluminous (and heavier) options.

I swear, I think that most people who run it haven't actually read the book, or any of his additions. They just use an online calc for the main lifts, stick with 40% for the BBB accessories, and think that's all there is to it.

This. So very much this. I've run 5/3/1 for the past year+. Anytime I stall in one area, I simply add volume to the 5/3/1 base. For me personally, I notice my body will gain in 2 areas and lag in 2 others. You have to be willing to adjust as necessary and as your body needs.

If 5/3/1 is "lacking volume" near the 1RM, then that's completely on the user, since all the volume near 1RM is a variable based on effort.

I question those who say 5/3/1 isn't effective. I have to wonder if they're truly maximizing their last set or whether they're getting complacent with those last few reps. The last set of 5/3/1 is the bread and butter of the entire program.

Gallowmere1984

jaypries wrote: »

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

Chieflrg wrote: »

Biggest thing about 5/3/1 is the lack of volume in the optimal range of your 1RM. Along with too many warm up sets. It can be tweaked, but there are way better programs out there that will deliver better results.

I do a whole three warm-up sets on the main lift, and nothing for the accessories. The accesory work covers the volume, assuming that you can deal with it. A lot of the time you see people doing the prescribed bare minimum, and never using the more voluminous (and heavier) options.

I swear, I think that most people who run it haven't actually read the book, or any of his additions. They just use an online calc for the main lifts, stick with 40% for the BBB accessories, and think that's all there is to it.

This. So very much this. I've run 5/3/1 for the past year+. Anytime I stall in one area, I simply add volume to the 5/3/1 base. For me personally, I notice my body will gain in 2 areas and lag in 2 others. You have to be willing to adjust as necessary and as your body needs.

If 5/3/1 is "lacking volume" near the 1RM, then that's completely on the user, since all the volume near 1RM is a variable based on effort.

I question those who say 5/3/1 isn't effective. I have to wonder if they're truly maximizing their last set or whether they're getting complacent with those last few reps. The last set of 5/3/1 is the bread and butter of the entire program.

Yeap, and that's not even counting variances like First Set Last, Joker Sets, etc.

As I said, I am definitely starting to believe that only about 5% of the people who try 5/3/1 have actually read the book, and less than half of that have read Beyond 5/3/1.

not_a_runner

I just finished my 4th cycle using Joker sets and BBB less boring sets of 5x5 or 5x3.
I've actually lost about 10 lbs during this time and I'm hitting squat and deadlift rep PRs almost daily.
My final Joker set on 1+ squats the other day was actually an all time PR. (After a plus set!)

Reading the books is a necessity. A few years ago before I read them I think I tried doing just the warm ups and plus set and I blew it off after the first week because "not enough volume." It's been effectively kicking my kitten now that I actually know how to set it up according to my goals. Honestly I don't think I've ever trained as hard as I have the last few months.

There's a great online calculator called Black Iron Beast that has basically every option you could possibly want. It definitely makes more sense once you know what all of it means though haha.

Have any of you seen the new book? I think it's called 5/3/1 For Life. I'll probably be ordering a copy soon.

Gallowmere1984

TresaAswegan wrote: »

I just finished my 4th cycle using Joker sets and BBB less boring sets of 5x5 or 5x3.
I've actually lost about 10 lbs during this time and I'm hitting squat and deadlift rep PRs almost daily.
My final Joker set on 1+ squats the other day was actually an all time PR. (After a plus set!)

Reading the books is a necessity. A few years ago before I read them I think I tried doing just the warm ups and plus set and I blew it off after the first week because "not enough volume." It's been effectively kicking my kitten now that I actually know how to set it up according to my goals. Honestly I don't think I've ever trained as hard as I have the last few months.

There's a great online calculator called Black Iron Beast that has basically every option you could possibly want. It definitely makes more sense once you know what all of it means though haha.

Have any of you seen the new book? I think it's called 5/3/1 For Life. I'll probably be ordering a copy soon.

5/3/1 Forever.

The presale for that book has discount codes on his website, so if you snatch it early, you can save some cash. There's no ebook pending in the near future anyway, as he's stated that he needs a break before dealing with that.

not_a_runner

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

TresaAswegan wrote: »

I just finished my 4th cycle using Joker sets and BBB less boring sets of 5x5 or 5x3.
I've actually lost about 10 lbs during this time and I'm hitting squat and deadlift rep PRs almost daily.
My final Joker set on 1+ squats the other day was actually an all time PR. (After a plus set!)

Reading the books is a necessity. A few years ago before I read them I think I tried doing just the warm ups and plus set and I blew it off after the first week because "not enough volume." It's been effectively kicking my kitten now that I actually know how to set it up according to my goals. Honestly I don't think I've ever trained as hard as I have the last few months.

There's a great online calculator called Black Iron Beast that has basically every option you could possibly want. It definitely makes more sense once you know what all of it means though haha.

Have any of you seen the new book? I think it's called 5/3/1 For Life. I'll probably be ordering a copy soon.

5/3/1 Forever.

The presale for that book has discount codes on his website, so if you snatch it early, you can save some cash. There's no ebook pending in the near future anyway, as he's stated that he needs a break before dealing with that.

Ah, at least I was close haha.
Guess I'll get on that and save a few bucks! I'm not an ebook fan anyway.

Gallowmere1984

TresaAswegan wrote: »

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

TresaAswegan wrote: »

I just finished my 4th cycle using Joker sets and BBB less boring sets of 5x5 or 5x3.
I've actually lost about 10 lbs during this time and I'm hitting squat and deadlift rep PRs almost daily.
My final Joker set on 1+ squats the other day was actually an all time PR. (After a plus set!)

Reading the books is a necessity. A few years ago before I read them I think I tried doing just the warm ups and plus set and I blew it off after the first week because "not enough volume." It's been effectively kicking my kitten now that I actually know how to set it up according to my goals. Honestly I don't think I've ever trained as hard as I have the last few months.

There's a great online calculator called Black Iron Beast that has basically every option you could possibly want. It definitely makes more sense once you know what all of it means though haha.

Have any of you seen the new book? I think it's called 5/3/1 For Life. I'll probably be ordering a copy soon.

5/3/1 Forever.

The presale for that book has discount codes on his website, so if you snatch it early, you can save some cash. There's no ebook pending in the near future anyway, as he's stated that he needs a break before dealing with that.

Ah, at least I was close haha.
Guess I'll get on that and save a few bucks! I'm not an ebook fan anyway.

Apparently the presale ended a bit early, due to massive volume. Ah well, I missed the boat myself, but I don't mind paying full price for good stuff, which everything from Jim has proven to be.

Chieflrg

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

Chieflrg wrote: »

Biggest thing about 5/3/1 is the lack of volume in the optimal range of your 1RM. Along with too many warm up sets. It can be tweaked, but there are way better programs out there that will deliver better results.

I do a whole three warm-up sets on the main lift, and nothing for the accessories. The accesory work covers the volume, assuming that you can deal with it. A lot of the time you see people doing the prescribed bare minimum, and never using the more voluminous (and heavier) options.

I swear, I think that most people who run it haven't actually read the book, or any of his additions. They just use an online calc for the main lifts, stick with 40% for the BBB accessories, and think that's all there is to it.

Accessories should not cover the volume, that is poor programing. Accessories should assist the main and be a very small percent of the work volume wise not the majority like the BBB3 month challenge.

50 reps per week at only 50% of TM one month, 60% next, and 70% the following... that is a ridiculous amount of volume at low intensity. Its a recipe for overtraining, its inefficient, and unnecessary. Mind you these accessories are actually your main lifts doubling as accessories in this variant.

So if you squat 400, your training max is 360. How does squatting 50 reps at 180lb every week assist your lift? Way too much volume as a accessory.

Chieflrg

jaypries wrote: »

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

Chieflrg wrote: »

Biggest thing about 5/3/1 is the lack of volume in the optimal range of your 1RM. Along with too many warm up sets. It can be tweaked, but there are way better programs out there that will deliver better results.

I do a whole three warm-up sets on the main lift, and nothing for the accessories. The accesory work covers the volume, assuming that you can deal with it. A lot of the time you see people doing the prescribed bare minimum, and never using the more voluminous (and heavier) options.

I swear, I think that most people who run it haven't actually read the book, or any of his additions. They just use an online calc for the main lifts, stick with 40% for the BBB accessories, and think that's all there is to it.

This. So very much this. I've run 5/3/1 for the past year+. Anytime I stall in one area, I simply add volume to the 5/3/1 base. For me personally, I notice my body will gain in 2 areas and lag in 2 others. You have to be willing to adjust as necessary and as your body needs.

If 5/3/1 is "lacking volume" near the 1RM, then that's completely on the user, since all the volume near 1RM is a variable based on effort.

I question those who say 5/3/1 isn't effective. I have to wonder if they're truly maximizing their last set or whether they're getting complacent with those last few reps. The last set of 5/3/1 is the bread and butter of the entire program.

Not necessarily. My assertion is that 5/3/1 was lacking volume in the optimal range relative to a 1rm with too much volume/tonage focused on the warm ups. As well as there are better alternative programs.

As I mentioned one can tweak the 5/3/1 program, but as written it has too much volume at warm ups to get to the 70-80% of 1rm range. Basically your wasting volume and energy to get to tonage that drives progressive overload.

Let take an example of a lifter whos 1rm is 400 lbs.

400lb 1RM= (280-320lbs) for optimal range at low intensity.

5/3/1 squatter doing Week of 1's(wk3) will get in that range the last working set according to the sets prescribed in the "5/3/1 Beyond" as follows...

360 training max
Warm up
135x5
155x5
185x5
215x5
245x5
275x3
305x*5x1 AMRAP for 5 cap as suggested by book.
1-2 sets of jokers maybe if energy is there.

So that's 28 reps in volume just to get to a optimal range. You say Joker? Okay but how much volume and energy was wasted just to get there because intensity was too high to get to range for a core lift.

This is my point with too much volume on warm up sets.

I rather hammer out this.

150x10
150x5
215x3
250x2
300x5x(3-5sets)

8 less reps of volume to get to my optimal range and more energy because my intensity was lower in warm ups.

Tonage just to get to optimal set:
5/3/1: 5500 lbs
Alternative method: 3385 lbs

So one can focus more energy at higher intensity with more gas in tank for the heavier working sets.

Not to mention slightly better recovery for following workout.

*edited due to many spelling errors & to add content relative.

giantrobot_powerlifting

viren19890 wrote: »

Hello all,

As my cut comes to an end- I'd like to regain strength which went down somewhat.

I'd like to put in as much lean muscle mass as possible until Nov 1-2017 .

How do I start with it?

I've used 5/3/1 and my numbers went up. Do you guys think that's a suitable program for my goals ? muscle mass? or muscle is purely dependent on calories in ?



TIA

Run Wendler's "Building the Monolith" if you want size and strength.

https://jimwendler.com/blogs/jimwendler-com/101078918-building-the-monolith-5-3-1-for-size

barbellsandbellydance

If you are a novice you will gain both muscle and strength with a simple linear program. The more advanced you are, the more complex your program will need to be. A hypertrophy program will help you put on muscle mass and the key to this is volume and tempos. A strength program will use much lower volume and your SOM will be much faster so that you can lift as heavy as possible. They are two different goals that require totally different programs, but they work well if you alternate between them as a bigger muscle has more potential to become stronger and vice versa. You need to choose one type of program and see it through for now. If you have any other questions, let me know

AnvilHead

barbellsandbellydance wrote: »

If you are a novice you will gain both muscle and strength with a simple linear program. The more advanced you are, the more complex your program will need to be. A hypertrophy program will help you put on muscle mass and the key to this is volume and tempos. A strength program will use much lower volume and your SOM will be much faster so that you can lift as heavy as possible. They are two different goals that require totally different programs, but they work well if you alternate between them as a bigger muscle has more potential to become stronger and vice versa. You need to choose one type of program and see it through for now. If you have any other questions, let me know

You've copy/pasted this answer to two different threads. So is it your opinion, then, that no hypertrophy will occur on a strength program and no strength increase will occur on a hypertrophy program?

viren19890

Thank you all however, I've noticed for me 5/3/1 didn't give me size but my strength went up drastically and I didn't gain size because my diet was horrible.

This time around I will try a different approach. I do the main lifts and then accessory work is done using 5 sets with 6-8 rep approach.

basically 8-10 sets per muscle group a week. I read a study (lol saw a youtube video which had a link to a study) that for natural builders 8-10 sets with 6-8 reps works good for hypertrophy. Now since May 2017 I've been on that approach and I see them veins and size.

I've changed my diet again this time around and I'll follow Lyle McDonalds program now and get fully lean first and then re-start.

What is life if not an experiment eh? lol