Progress on 5/3/1
mom23mangos
Posts: 3,069 Member
I just finished up my third round of 5/3/1 and it seems like I have made very little progress over 3 months. I know I'm at a spot where I will no longer quickly add weight, but I just want to make sure I'm not just spinning my wheels. I mainly went with 5/3/1 due to it being a shorter session length.
I missed a week with squats due to a hip flexor injury, so it has one less data point. I don't know what's up with my deads. They are all over the place.
The question for those that have run this program is, is this normal?
I missed a week with squats due to a hip flexor injury, so it has one less data point. I don't know what's up with my deads. They are all over the place.
The question for those that have run this program is, is this normal?
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Replies
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I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.0
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If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.3 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
You are totally right @Gallowmere1984. I gassed out on a lot of the deadlifts. The rep range for some of them were 14-17 reps and my heart, lungs and hands gave out way before my legs/back did. But on the other hand, I think the calc'd 1RM's are totally bogus. I don't think my deadlift is anywhere near there. I'd bet 200lbs max. Maybe I'll test it out next time. I've never tried anything above 185.0 -
mom23mangos wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
You are totally right @Gallowmere1984. I gassed out on a lot of the deadlifts. The rep range for some of them were 14-17 reps and my heart, lungs and hands gave out way before my legs/back did. But on the other hand, I think the calc'd 1RM's are totally bogus. I don't think my deadlift is anywhere near there. I'd bet 200lbs max. Maybe I'll test it out next time. I've never tried anything above 185.
Max calculators tend to be off when you get into higher rep ranges.
I believe I've heard that women tend to be able to rep more weight closer to their max than men. I think it all differs though. I can squat triples within 25 lbs of my squat max, but I can only pull triples within 45 lbs of my deadlift, on a good day.
I just finished my 4th cycle, and there were definitely days when I just didn't have it in me to push as hard on the AMRAPs as I had other days, especially on deadlifts. I like to look back at what I got the previous cycle (or if I've used the same weight recently) and try to come as close to matching the reps as I can. If I added 5 lbs and matched the reps, I know I'm on the right track!
ETA- I also programmed with training numbers that were much much lower than my actual 1RMs.0 -
ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
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ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
Yeah, I'd say that Beyond is pretty much 100% essential to getting the most out of the program. The original 5/3/1 was great in principle and theory, for the group it was really aimed at (high intermediate to advanced lifters), but was just too slow of an approach for newer lifters.
The most important thing that I got out of Beyond though, was the 7th week deloads. Losing 25% of potential training time to f-about weights just didn't set well with me.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
Yeah, I'd say that Beyond is pretty much 100% essential to getting the most out of the program. The original 5/3/1 was great in principle and theory, for the group it was really aimed at (high intermediate to advanced lifters), but was just too slow of an approach for newer lifters.
The most important thing that I got out of Beyond though, was the 7th week deloads. Losing 25% of potential training time to f-about weights just didn't set well with me.
Yeah that 4th week chit is just stupid.
My body responds better all around when a deload isn't stamped.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
Yeah, I'd say that Beyond is pretty much 100% essential to getting the most out of the program. The original 5/3/1 was great in principle and theory, for the group it was really aimed at (high intermediate to advanced lifters), but was just too slow of an approach for newer lifters.
The most important thing that I got out of Beyond though, was the 7th week deloads. Losing 25% of potential training time to f-about weights just didn't set well with me.
I'm the opposite. I love my deload weeks in BLS. But that is because I battle tendinitis in my forearms
...
Also, this seems typical for 5/3/1. But I believe that is the intent because you should be looking at the program over a very long period of time. IIRC, Wendler looks at programming on a 52 week timeframe.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
Yeah, I'd say that Beyond is pretty much 100% essential to getting the most out of the program. The original 5/3/1 was great in principle and theory, for the group it was really aimed at (high intermediate to advanced lifters), but was just too slow of an approach for newer lifters.
The most important thing that I got out of Beyond though, was the 7th week deloads. Losing 25% of potential training time to f-about weights just didn't set well with me.
I'm the opposite. I love my deload weeks in BLS. But that is because I battle tendinitis in my forearms...
Also, this seems typical for 5/3/1. But I believe that is the intent because you should be looking at the program over a very long period of time. IIRC, Wendler looks at programming on a 52 week timeframe.
I never had more tendonitis in my life then when on Wendler's and I have a disease that attacks all my joints and tendons. I would guess part of it is because my volume is more at a desired level.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
Yeah, I'd say that Beyond is pretty much 100% essential to getting the most out of the program. The original 5/3/1 was great in principle and theory, for the group it was really aimed at (high intermediate to advanced lifters), but was just too slow of an approach for newer lifters.
The most important thing that I got out of Beyond though, was the 7th week deloads. Losing 25% of potential training time to f-about weights just didn't set well with me.
I'm the opposite. I love my deload weeks in BLS. But that is because I battle tendinitis in my forearms...
Also, this seems typical for 5/3/1. But I believe that is the intent because you should be looking at the program over a very long period of time. IIRC, Wendler looks at programming on a 52 week timeframe.
I never had more tendonitis in my life then when on Wendler's and I have a disease that attacks all my joints and tendons. I would guess part of it is because my volume is more at a desired level.
Just out of curiosity - did you try changing around the order of days? When I squat one day, bench the next, I tend to have issues with my left shoulder and elbow. Once I started benching first, squatting the next day, those issues have essentially gone away.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
Yeah, I'd say that Beyond is pretty much 100% essential to getting the most out of the program. The original 5/3/1 was great in principle and theory, for the group it was really aimed at (high intermediate to advanced lifters), but was just too slow of an approach for newer lifters.
The most important thing that I got out of Beyond though, was the 7th week deloads. Losing 25% of potential training time to f-about weights just didn't set well with me.
I'm the opposite. I love my deload weeks in BLS. But that is because I battle tendinitis in my forearms...
Also, this seems typical for 5/3/1. But I believe that is the intent because you should be looking at the program over a very long period of time. IIRC, Wendler looks at programming on a 52 week timeframe.
I never had more tendonitis in my life then when on Wendler's and I have a disease that attacks all my joints and tendons. I would guess part of it is because my volume is more at a desired level.
Just out of curiosity - did you try changing around the order of days? When I squat one day, bench the next, I tend to have issues with my left shoulder and elbow. Once I started benching first, squatting the next day, those issues have essentially gone away.
Yeah. I bounced that way because squats take gas away from my bench if I do them the day before.
I found its the unnecessary volume. I squat 3 days a week now and bench 1-2 times but it's still less volume then when I ran Wendler's. My shoulders, elbows, fingers, and knees all have subsided from tendonitis to level I can lift without pain.
Good point to bring up for others though
. 0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
Yeah, I'd say that Beyond is pretty much 100% essential to getting the most out of the program. The original 5/3/1 was great in principle and theory, for the group it was really aimed at (high intermediate to advanced lifters), but was just too slow of an approach for newer lifters.
The most important thing that I got out of Beyond though, was the 7th week deloads. Losing 25% of potential training time to f-about weights just didn't set well with me.
I'm the opposite. I love my deload weeks in BLS. But that is because I battle tendinitis in my forearms...
Also, this seems typical for 5/3/1. But I believe that is the intent because you should be looking at the program over a very long period of time. IIRC, Wendler looks at programming on a 52 week timeframe.
Yeah, but BLS deloads are also every eight weeks or so, which is more in line with the Beyond 5/3/1 timeline, as opposed to the original every fourth week ridiculousness.1 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
Yeah, I'd say that Beyond is pretty much 100% essential to getting the most out of the program. The original 5/3/1 was great in principle and theory, for the group it was really aimed at (high intermediate to advanced lifters), but was just too slow of an approach for newer lifters.
The most important thing that I got out of Beyond though, was the 7th week deloads. Losing 25% of potential training time to f-about weights just didn't set well with me.
I'm the opposite. I love my deload weeks in BLS. But that is because I battle tendinitis in my forearms...
Also, this seems typical for 5/3/1. But I believe that is the intent because you should be looking at the program over a very long period of time. IIRC, Wendler looks at programming on a 52 week timeframe.
Yeah, but BLS deloads are also every eight weeks or so, which is more in line with the Beyond 5/3/1 timeline, as opposed to the original every fourth week ridiculousness.
Agreed that 4 weeks is too fast. That is why i worked with @SideSteel to modify the programming a bit. The longer periods seem to be more beneficial and still supported by the current evidence out there and anecdotes from Wendler and people like Mike Matthews.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »Gallowmere1984 wrote: »ijsantos2005 wrote: »I've heard 5/3/1 being described as "snail gains" before.Gallowmere1984 wrote: »If I had to wager a guess on your deads, it looks like you're just gassing out on some sessions. Those DL amraps can be brutal if your conditioning sucks. Using them as a metric for actual 1RM isn't a great idea. For example, my most recent session calced out to something like a 421 1RM, but I've pulled 425 with ease.
ETA: if you want a better gauge of how your strength is progressing, on your next 5/3/1 week, just do the prescribed reps, and don't amrap the last set. Then, just work up to a real 1RM test doing progressively heavier singles until you miss.
This to both.
I ran it for 6 months and then badtardized it and ran it for over another year.
As written with warm up sets and AMRAPs it's a slow moving program compared to other proven programs that have been around longer.
If you cap your AMRAP low as mentioned above and reduce the obnoxious amount of volume to warm up to get to the AMRAP set and beyond(jokers), you'll see better results.
Yeah, I'd say that Beyond is pretty much 100% essential to getting the most out of the program. The original 5/3/1 was great in principle and theory, for the group it was really aimed at (high intermediate to advanced lifters), but was just too slow of an approach for newer lifters.
The most important thing that I got out of Beyond though, was the 7th week deloads. Losing 25% of potential training time to f-about weights just didn't set well with me.
I'm the opposite. I love my deload weeks in BLS. But that is because I battle tendinitis in my forearms...
Also, this seems typical for 5/3/1. But I believe that is the intent because you should be looking at the program over a very long period of time. IIRC, Wendler looks at programming on a 52 week timeframe.
Yeah, but BLS deloads are also every eight weeks or so, which is more in line with the Beyond 5/3/1 timeline, as opposed to the original every fourth week ridiculousness.
Agreed that 4 weeks is too fast. That is why i worked with @SideSteel to modify the programming a bit. The longer periods seem to be more beneficial and still supported by the current evidence out there and anecdotes from Wendler and people like Mike Matthews.
Wendler has stated several times that he exclusively uses the 7th week deloads now with people that he trains directly. Essentially, we could probably take that as the 4th week dls being completely dead.
I'm also interested to see his new Krypteia program, once my copy of his new book arrives. He's stated that it's the best thing he's ever come up with, and uses it for nearly everyone.0 -
That graph is awesome. Is that on this app?0
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No, I found a Wendler app that's good for tracking your progress on the main lifts. Sucks at tracking the accessories though.0
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mom23mangos wrote: »No, I found a Wendler app that's good for tracking your progress on the main lifts. Sucks at tracking the accessories though.
Yeah, I came across that app myself, looked for fifteen minutes and uninstalled. I kept hoping that blackironbeast would finally get his app done, but it never materialized, and the "coming soon" thing for it on his website was recently removed.
I just use that, since it has all of the accessory options available, then track the progress itself in my phone's notepad.0 -
Gallowmere1984 wrote: »mom23mangos wrote: »No, I found a Wendler app that's good for tracking your progress on the main lifts. Sucks at tracking the accessories though.
Yeah, I came across that app myself, looked for fifteen minutes and uninstalled. I kept hoping that blackironbeast would finally get his app done, but it never materialized, and the "coming soon" thing for it on his website was recently removed.
I just use that, since it has all of the accessory options available, then track the progress itself in my phone's notepad.
HA! That just came up in my Facebook memories the other day and I'm like oh yeah there was supposedly going to be an app.
I usually print from there and write in a notebook. Track main lifts on an excel sheet when I get bored.0
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