How do squats even work?

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ceiswyn
ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
in Fitness and Exercise
I have read many different articles on the technique. I have tried the advice of most of them. Every time, the same thing happens; I start off in the correct position, descend about two inches, and then have to choose between leaning forward, which I think I'm not supposed to do, or slowly falling over backward.

Am I misunderstanding how the exercise works? Am I allowed to lean forward after all? If not, how in heck does everyone else manage to avoid falling over backwards?! Or is this a problem with my mass distribution and shape (I'm literally the exact same shape as the fat broad in the BC comic strips, and additionally all my weight is in my thighs and hips)?

Help me do squats!
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  • Mycophilia
    Mycophilia Posts: 1,225 Member
    edited April 2017
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    It's fine to lean forward as long as your back remains neutral and the bar/center of mass is over the middle of your foot.
  • Lizarking
    Lizarking Posts: 507 Member
    edited April 2017
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    Consider doing goblet squats to form a base of strength and get a good feel. Or hire someone to help in person. Not necessarily a personal trainer, but someone that knows how to coach a squat.


    You can post a form video too.
  • cqbkaju
    cqbkaju Posts: 1,011 Member
    edited April 2017
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    Mycophilia wrote: »
    It's fine to lean forward as long as your back remains neutral and the bar/center of mass is over the middle of your food.
    @Mycophilia is correct. There are dozens of videos on YouTube about properly performing the squat.
    "Neutral" in this instance means straight.

    If I remember correctly, a whole chapter is devoted to squat form in Starting Strength: Basic Barbell Training, 3rd edition.

    Are you doing a high bar or low bar squat? That can have an impact on your balance and center of gravity.
    Regardless of bar placement, my first guess is that the weight you are using is too heavy for good technique.
    Make sure you can squat an empty 45 lb Olympic bar or even an empty 20 lb "standard, 1 inch" exercise bar with good form and work up from there.

    For a more literal answer, they work wonderfully!
    But not as good as a trap bar deadlift in my opinion, unless perhaps you are using a good safety squat bar.

    [edit] Another issue I have seen is you do not have the necessary flexibility in your hips or ankles which is affecting your form.
    This seems to be more common with older people who never took the time to stretch or previously spent most of their "exercise time" running.
  • cathipa
    cathipa Posts: 2,991 Member
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    Google Bret Contreras
  • MonkeyMel21
    MonkeyMel21 Posts: 2,388 Member
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    Are you doing your squats with no weights? for whatever reason I just can't do squats with no weights. I can't go down very far and also feel like I'll fall forward or backward.
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
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    I'm trying to do simple bodyweight squats in order to get the technique right. My trainer gave me goblet squats to do with something to sit on at the bottom, but honestly I could do those all day. What I can't do is get any further down without going up on my toes, because with my feet flat I just can't get my weight far enough forward to avoid falling over backward.

    If this is a muscular/technique problem, I want to work on it. If it's a laws of physics 'your teeny torso just cannot counterbalance your huge *kitten*' problem, then that's a different story!
  • jemhh
    jemhh Posts: 14,261 Member
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    ceiswyn wrote: »
    I have read many different articles on the technique. I have tried the advice of most of them. Every time, the same thing happens; I start off in the correct position, descend about two inches, and then have to choose between leaning forward, which I think I'm not supposed to do, or slowly falling over backward.

    Am I misunderstanding how the exercise works? Am I allowed to lean forward after all? If not, how in heck does everyone else manage to avoid falling over backwards?! Or is this a problem with my mass distribution and shape (I'm literally the exact same shape as the fat broad in the BC comic strips, and additionally all my weight is in my thighs and hips)?

    Help me do squats!

    I'm going to assume that you are trying to do a bodyweight squat, not a variation using a barbell. I like both of these videos:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72tfVCxlmZI

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R_17mEoIgw

  • Lizarking
    Lizarking Posts: 507 Member
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    Yeah, sounds like a form issue. Try posting a side view video.

    mind you, you really only need to just break parallel to get the benefits with a weighted squat.
  • cqbkaju
    cqbkaju Posts: 1,011 Member
    edited April 2017
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    ceiswyn wrote: »
    What I can't do is get any further down without going up on my toes, because with my feet flat I just can't get my weight far enough forward to avoid falling over backward.
    That is what I was referring to with flexibility.
    I've even noticed this with older judo black belts who learned to compensate for it while executing o-goshi (major hip throw).

    The toes thing is a dead giveaway that you need to work on the flexibility in your calves and ankles and that your balance is being impacted.
    YouTube has some videos on good stretches.
    I am not really patient enough to try to describe them but put the front of your foot/toes on something like a 25 lb plate with your heel on the floor and lean forward.

    Practice yoga, t‘ai-chi ch‘uan or something to work on your balance as well.
  • kaizaku
    kaizaku Posts: 1,039 Member
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    ceiswyn wrote: »
    I'm trying to do simple bodyweight squats in order to get the technique right. My trainer gave me goblet squats to do with something to sit on at the bottom, but honestly I could do those all day. What I can't do is get any further down without going up on my toes, because with my feet flat I just can't get my weight far enough forward to avoid falling over backward.

    If this is a muscular/technique problem, I want to work on it. If it's a laws of physics 'your teeny torso just cannot counterbalance your huge *kitten*' problem, then that's a different story!

    You can also buy squat shoe's. Some say it is real good.
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
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    cqbkaju wrote: »
    Another issue I have seen is you do not have the necessary flexibility in your hips or ankles which is affecting your form.
    This seems to be more common with older people who never took the time to stretch or previously spent most of their "exercise time" running.

    Ah! This may be the fundamental issue. My ankles point really well, but they flex really badly. If squats require actual human ankle flexion, I may just have to give up and move on :)
  • cqbkaju
    cqbkaju Posts: 1,011 Member
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    ceiswyn wrote: »
    cqbkaju wrote: »
    Another issue I have seen is you do not have the necessary flexibility in your hips or ankles which is affecting your form.
    This seems to be more common with older people who never took the time to stretch or previously spent most of their "exercise time" running.

    Ah! This may be the fundamental issue. My ankles point really well, but they flex really badly. If squats require actual human ankle flexion, I may just have to give up and move on :)

    Don't give up. I have some suggestions in another post, above.
  • firef1y72
    firef1y72 Posts: 1,579 Member
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    ceiswyn wrote: »
    I have read many different articles on the technique. I have tried the advice of most of them. Every time, the same thing happens; I start off in the correct position, descend about two inches, and then have to choose between leaning forward, which I think I'm not supposed to do, or slowly falling over backward.

    Am I misunderstanding how the exercise works? Am I allowed to lean forward after all? If not, how in heck does everyone else manage to avoid falling over backwards?! Or is this a problem with my mass distribution and shape (I'm literally the exact same shape as the fat broad in the BC comic strips, and additionally all my weight is in my thighs and hips)?

    Help me do squats!

    I definitely lean forward, both with bodyweight and barbel squats. But I keep my head up and back straight. I did have to play around with foot position to get depth, although I can now get bum to floor in sumo, standard and narrow stance to start with I needed my feet slightly wider than shoulder width with toes turned out about 45 degrees.
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
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    cqbkaju wrote: »
    The toes thing is a dead giveaway that you need to work on the flexibility in your calves and ankles and that your balance is being impacted..

    If I try to force my ankles to flex any further than they go naturally, there's a crunching pain at the front. I suspect better ankle flexion is not gonna happen!

    I do do t'ai chi, so my general balance is pretty good; especially as practicing at home regularly involves having to stop suddenly with one foot in the air as a cat walks under it with a 'whatcha doin?' expression. Can always be worked on more, though :)
  • Katiebear_81
    Katiebear_81 Posts: 719 Member
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    ceiswyn wrote: »
    cqbkaju wrote: »
    Another issue I have seen is you do not have the necessary flexibility in your hips or ankles which is affecting your form.
    This seems to be more common with older people who never took the time to stretch or previously spent most of their "exercise time" running.

    Ah! This may be the fundamental issue. My ankles point really well, but they flex really badly. If squats require actual human ankle flexion, I may just have to give up and move on :)

    I agree. Don't give up. Work on your mobility in your ankles, it will help you overall in life.

    In the mean time, you can slide a plate weight under your heels to help you with your balance. This will have a similar effect to squat shoes. The big 10 lbs plates (about an inch thick) will be enough. Try with that and see how you do.

    Also, you can do box squats (where you touch down to something) without weight. It might help develop some muscle memory. :)
  • cqbkaju
    cqbkaju Posts: 1,011 Member
    edited April 2017
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    ceiswyn wrote: »
    cqbkaju wrote: »
    The toes thing is a dead giveaway that you need to work on the flexibility in your calves and ankles and that your balance is being impacted..

    If I try to force my ankles to flex any further than they go naturally, there's a crunching pain at the front. I suspect better ankle flexion is not gonna happen!

    I do do t'ai chi, so my general balance is pretty good; especially as practicing at home regularly involves having to stop suddenly with one foot in the air as a cat walks under it with a 'whatcha doin?' expression. Can always be worked on more, though :)

    The toes raised above the heel stretch can help but you need to be consistent.
    All I will say is that this is a form and flexibility issue which can be managed, with time.

    My left ankle has been reconstructed and the Achilles tendon is artificial.
    Some sort of plastic polymer, actually. Long story.
    Let's just say there are some side-effects to fighting full-contact for almost 15 years.
    I can still squat and deadlift with acceptable form after the surgeries. It just took perseverance and dedication.

    If there is a structural issue with the foot, causing pain, then you probably need to see an Podiatrist or Orthopedist.
    In the meantime you can put a block under your heels, but I personally would not do that until an pod/ortho says your feet and ankles are sound.
    Also, someone qualified needs to monitor your form for a while if you are going to do this.
    Pay a trainer who is experienced in various squat exercises to make sure you are doing it correctly before going full-bore on blocked/raised squats.
    At the very least have them show you how they squat before signing up with them.
    If they are not squatting with at least their bodyweight on the bar with a straight back and thighs parallel to the ground then they are not qualified to advise you and certainly do not pay them.

    It is also important to remember that blocked squats will probably not contribute much to your "functional strength" because you will always be in an unnatural position instead of improving your mechanics.
    This is in contrast with someone who has reasonable ankle flexibility.

    Here are the magic questions:
    Do you come up on your toes when getting out of a chair or off the toilet?
    Do you habitually push off with your hands to rise from either of them?

    If yes to either, then you may be heading for trouble if you don't address it.
  • jemhh
    jemhh Posts: 14,261 Member
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    ceiswyn wrote: »
    cqbkaju wrote: »
    The toes thing is a dead giveaway that you need to work on the flexibility in your calves and ankles and that your balance is being impacted..

    If I try to force my ankles to flex any further than they go naturally, there's a crunching pain at the front. I suspect better ankle flexion is not gonna happen!

    I do do t'ai chi, so my general balance is pretty good; especially as practicing at home regularly involves having to stop suddenly with one foot in the air as a cat walks under it with a 'whatcha doin?' expression. Can always be worked on more, though :)

    Do you have a board that you can put under your heels while squatting? That can help. Squat shoes are shoes with elevated heels, which reduces the amount of ankle flexion and makes it easier to squat lower. The higher the heel, the lower you can go. I'm not saying to run out and try it but I know that if I am wearing heels and have to squat for some reason (for me it's to get to the dog food in our pantry) it turns into a no effort super low squat without even thinking about it.
  • justthewayur
    justthewayur Posts: 1 Member
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    A few tips. If you struggle with stability, widen your stance and try performing your squat using the wall as a guide - similar to a chair but to keep you from falling backwards. Also, weight should push through your heels and your knees shouldn't go forward past your toes. I agree, google videos. However, be cautious, some are horrible. Here's a nice one I found that has great tips. It begins showing bad technique and then corrective measures. Hope this helps and keep trying.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-zp42gpbt8
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
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    I'll try the something-under-my-heels plan. Is squatting in kitten heels a thing? :wink:

    I don't know how likely it is that I can improve the flexion in my ankles; I've been doing achilles rehabilitation stretches religiously for two years without making the slightest impact on the lock-crunch-ow that happens at the front of the joint (though at least I'm not getting pain at the back anymore!) However if there's a workaround it at least won't restrict me, and if it improves, it improves.

    Thanks, all!
  • ceiswyn
    ceiswyn Posts: 2,256 Member
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    cqbkaju wrote: »
    Here is the magic questions:
    Do you come up on your toes when getting out of a chair or off the toilet?
    Do you frequently push off with your hands to rise from either of them?

    If yes to either, then you may be heading for trouble if you don't address it.

    No to both. I just lean forwards and then push straight up. Getting up is easy; getting down seems to be hard!

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