Sugar Addict needs support
Replies
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LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »I've experienced caffeine withdrawals, is that good enough? Or should I become a drug addict in order to REALLY understand my body's reaction to sugar? I didn't say it was a drug withdrawal. I said it felt similar to caffeine withdrawal, which no one disputes is an addiction.
According to the nih "The reviewed evidence supports the theory that, in some circumstances, intermittent access to sugar can lead to behavior and neurochemical changes that resemble the effects of a substance of abuse. "
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/. So maybe not an actual addiction, but close enough for some that the term works in a general layman's discussion about nutrition.
It seems to me that just like some can have a drink of alcohol without becoming an alcoholic, so to could someone eat a small amount of sugar and not have any further cravings. AGAIN, I'm not comparing it to heroine withdrawal. Not at all.
They have only been able to show the effects in animal models (typically when given intermittent access to food)... which haven't translated in human models. More likely, it's hyperpalatable foods that drive the reward response. As @storyjorie mentioned, cupcakes (roughly a split between carbs and fats). So we all just love good food. For me, I'd binge more on cheese or chips & guac than cupcakes which I rarely eat.
Also considering our bodies run on sugar and it breaks down nutrients to the lowest level and we don't have the responses to fruits, it seems less plausible to be an actual physical addiction.
Like I noted previously though, restriction is worse for me that eating smaller quantities.2 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Just here to say that no, "sugar withdrawal" is not at all like what drug addicts go through. It's not even close. Not even a little bit sorta close to being almost like something that's even remotely similar. It's kinda like getting a splinter and then wondering if that's similar to getting a leg amputated at the femur without any anesthesia.
It's not even a physical/chemical withdrawal. It's just a taste craving for something you enjoy.
...I know that's right, as i've lived to tell the tale.4 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »I've experienced caffeine withdrawals, is that good enough? Or should I become a drug addict in order to REALLY understand my body's reaction to sugar? I didn't say it was a drug withdrawal. I said it felt similar to caffeine withdrawal, which no one disputes is an addiction.
According to the nih "The reviewed evidence supports the theory that, in some circumstances, intermittent access to sugar can lead to behavior and neurochemical changes that resemble the effects of a substance of abuse. "
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2235907/. So maybe not an actual addiction, but close enough for some that the term works in a general layman's discussion about nutrition.
It seems to me that just like some can have a drink of alcohol without becoming an alcoholic, so to could someone eat a small amount of sugar and not have any further cravings. AGAIN, I'm not comparing it to heroine withdrawal. Not at all.
They have only been able to show the effects in animal models (typically when given intermittent access to food)... which haven't translated in human models. More likely, it's hyperpalatable foods that drive the reward response. As @storyjorie mentioned, cupcakes (roughly a split between carbs and fats). So we all just love good food. For me, I'd binge more on cheese or chips & guac than cupcakes which I rarely eat.
Also considering our bodies run on sugar and it breaks down nutrients to the lowest level and we don't have the responses to fruits, it seems less plausible to be an actual physical addiction.
Like I noted previously though, restriction is worse for me that eating smaller quantities.
What I know is the more sugar I consume, the more I want. Some part of my system does not register "enough" and I when I move away from heavy doses of sugar I experience caffeine-like withdrawal. I can have a small drink of alcohol once every 2-3 years and never miss it, yet I don't dismiss someone who says they're addicted to alcohol. I agree they need to do this study on humans because I don't think there have been enough studies to either call it an addiction officially, or dismiss it out of hand completely.2 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »So caffeine addiction isn't a thing now?
Technically, I think it's a dependency, not an addiction. It definitely can create a physical dependency that you will have (mild) physical withdrawal symptoms from.
On the other hand, alcohol CAN create a physical dependency, but that is not what determines alcohol addiction, and many, many alcoholics (or alcohol addicts) quit drinking without having serious withdrawal symptoms. (But people who quit should be aware that it can be life threatening to just stop drinking depending on their patterns. I did this after patterns that should have made me consider medical advice/supervision, it was unpleasant but I was okay, it was probably dumb.) The main issue for most alcoholics is much less a physical dependency than with quitting caffeine, but alcoholism fits the definition for addiction and caffeine dependency doesn't.Then there is nicotine, which is considered an addiction yet has another set of withdrawal issues entirely.
Nicotine probably could be considered both, but it definitely has a physical dependency element.
Sugar does not have a physical dependency element in that sense, and does not lead to physical withdrawal symptoms. (We know what causes keto flu, and it is not the same thing as withdrawal, and usually people talking about "withdrawal from sugar" aren't keto and are consuming plenty of food that breaks down to sugar in the body.)
However, that sugar does not create a physical dependence does not mean that it cannot be an addiction. I think eating addiction is probably more accurate, and it requires more than merely having trouble moderating some food, although it might be a continuum. I've seen interviews of some morbidly obese food addicts who I do think were every bit as addicted as an alcoholic, and I think binge eating disorder seems at least somewhat the same thing.
I also would agree with:Daddy78230 wrote: »I've quit smoking before, many, many times, before finally quitting several years ago. I've also had to cut the majority of my sugar and carbs from my diet due to health reasons. I would not say it's the same level, but it has a lot parallels. There's the habit and routine, the pleasurable associations...
I think this is because a huge part of quitting a bad habit IS these kinds of things, and an addiction is, among other things, a habit.
I don't really think it matters to the advice given whether one actually thinks it is an addiction or not, unless one decides that (a) it must be, and (b) that means it has to be removed from the diet entirely (which becomes a problem if you define it as sugar unless one is up for keto, I guess (which doesn't remove it entirely, but close enough perhaps), and I don't think that's the only or even the obvious first step for someone who thinks they have a problem moderating sweet things. (I would recommend to someone who thinks she has an addiction to alcohol that she consider quitting.)
Not really arguing just considering on this. Didn't psuLemon state that the body depends on sugar naturally? So if the physical dependency is already there its possible it is stronger for some people than others, perhaps leading to a more addictive like state.1 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »So caffeine addiction isn't a thing now? I thought it was considered an addiction and yet withdrawal consists of a few headaches, a little fatigue, and some crankiness. Then there is nicotine, which is considered an addiction yet has another set of withdrawal issues entirely. I can't name them personally as I've never experienced it. I wouldn't say I'm a sugar addict, but I do know what it's like to constantly want and think about sugary foods and not understand why. I'm not talking about a habitual thing, either. Its constant physical craving. Is it the same as heroine? No, of course not. But getting away from it did cause headaches, fatigue, serious crankiness, and a jittery feeling at times.
I have a friend who was a heroin addict for 28 years who was able to quit that, but not nicotine. He kicked heroin many times, and although the physical symptoms of that were worse than quiting smoking, something about smoking is just more compelling for him.
So I'm agreeing with you that the physical symptoms of withdrawal are not the end of the story.1 -
Carlos_421 wrote: »Just here to say that no, "sugar withdrawal" is not at all like what drug addicts go through. It's not even close. Not even a little bit sorta close to being almost like something that's even remotely similar. It's kinda like getting a splinter and then wondering if that's similar to getting a leg amputated at the femur without any anesthesia.
It's not even a physical/chemical withdrawal. It's just a taste craving for something you enjoy.
I used to have serious problems with alcohol and other substances and behaviors and am here to tell you the cravings I've felt for food felt exactly the same. And the same cognitive behavioral therapy techniques have been useful for everything.6 -
You are going to get responses all across the board with this. People who have never had the addiction will tell you it doesn't exist. But, i know how it goes. I would recommend with the carbs thing that unless you are diabetic to still eat them. A little whole grain pasta or rice is going to give you a balanced diet. And it might help curb your cravings. I eat pasta and rice (open diary) every week and i still lose weight but dont have cravings. Have you tried eating a piece of fruit when it happens? Maybe the natural sugar would help. I also tend to add a lot of avocado lately in my diet and i think it helps with cravings and is so tasty in pretty much everything. I also think adding in a lot fruits/veggies/proteins and eating every 2 hours helps, because if you are not hungry you are probably less edgy. You can do this! I have heard the first week is the absolute hardest, so if you got past that point you can only get better from here on out.1
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sugar is not an addictive substance.
you are gaining weight because you are consuming too many calories.
if you truly believe that you have an addiction to sugar, check yourself into a rehabilitation center.5 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »Not really arguing just considering on this. Didn't psuLemon state that the body depends on sugar naturally? So if the physical dependency is already there its possible it is stronger for some people than others, perhaps leading to a more addictive like state.
That's not what a dependence is, though. Yes, the body naturally runs on sugar, just like it needs food and water. Dehydration is not water withdrawal, it's lack of something we naturally need. Lack of caffeine is not the same thing.
Because the body naturally runs on sugar, switching to running more on ketones may (does?) lead to a short term feeling that one lacks energy and the rest and before the new energy kicks in (this is not meant to be scientific). That is just a different process than physical withdrawal.
Also, again, most of the time people are not referring to keto flu. They HAVE sugar in their bodies and are getting plenty of sugar. What we are talking about (addiction or no), is a psychological thing. That is NOT minimizing it, again. Take a drug addict or alcoholic through rehab so that they are not suffering from withdrawal. Are they over the addiction? No, that's not enough.
I think one reason the addiction thing is touchy is that the normal model for addiction treatment in the US (and beyond, but I know the US) is abstinence. If you are an addict, you must not have whatever it is, ever again, or you will lose it and probably ruin your life and be completely out of control. That's the model, that's the assumption. I don't think it really applies to sugar, at least not for most. (And as psulemon said, it's usually not "sugar," but a variety of hyperpalatable things. Are some more inclined, for whatever reasons, personal taste, childhood associations, etc., to the sweet? Sure.)
I do think this is an interesting topic, although I wish the debate about addiction didn't always get tagged to threads where the OP often just wants practical advice on how to eat less sugar. (Which always happens, and I am not innocent.)3 -
danigirl1011 wrote: »You are going to get responses all across the board with this. People who have never had the addiction will tell you it doesn't exist. But, i know how it goes. I would recommend with the carbs thing that unless you are diabetic to still eat them. A little whole grain pasta or rice is going to give you a balanced diet. And it might help curb your cravings. I eat pasta and rice (open diary) every week and i still lose weight but dont have cravings. Have you tried eating a piece of fruit when it happens? Maybe the natural sugar would help. I also tend to add a lot of avocado lately in my diet and i think it helps with cravings and is so tasty in pretty much everything. I also think adding in a lot fruits/veggies/proteins and eating every 2 hours helps, because if you are not hungry you are probably less edgy. You can do this! I have heard the first week is the absolute hardest, so if you got past that point you can only get better from here on out.
fruit sugar = sugar
why would you recommend that someone who claims sugar addiction consume more sugar? would you make the same recommendation to a cocaine addict?5 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »So caffeine addiction isn't a thing now?
Technically, I think it's a dependency, not an addiction. It definitely can create a physical dependency that you will have (mild) physical withdrawal symptoms from.
On the other hand, alcohol CAN create a physical dependency, but that is not what determines alcohol addiction, and many, many alcoholics (or alcohol addicts) quit drinking without having serious withdrawal symptoms. (But people who quit should be aware that it can be life threatening to just stop drinking depending on their patterns. I did this after patterns that should have made me consider medical advice/supervision, it was unpleasant but I was okay, it was probably dumb.) The main issue for most alcoholics is much less a physical dependency than with quitting caffeine, but alcoholism fits the definition for addiction and caffeine dependency doesn't.Then there is nicotine, which is considered an addiction yet has another set of withdrawal issues entirely.
Nicotine probably could be considered both, but it definitely has a physical dependency element.
Sugar does not have a physical dependency element in that sense, and does not lead to physical withdrawal symptoms. (We know what causes keto flu, and it is not the same thing as withdrawal, and usually people talking about "withdrawal from sugar" aren't keto and are consuming plenty of food that breaks down to sugar in the body.)
However, that sugar does not create a physical dependence does not mean that it cannot be an addiction. I think eating addiction is probably more accurate, and it requires more than merely having trouble moderating some food, although it might be a continuum. I've seen interviews of some morbidly obese food addicts who I do think were every bit as addicted as an alcoholic, and I think binge eating disorder seems at least somewhat the same thing.
I also would agree with:Daddy78230 wrote: »I've quit smoking before, many, many times, before finally quitting several years ago. I've also had to cut the majority of my sugar and carbs from my diet due to health reasons. I would not say it's the same level, but it has a lot parallels. There's the habit and routine, the pleasurable associations...
I think this is because a huge part of quitting a bad habit IS these kinds of things, and an addiction is, among other things, a habit.
I don't really think it matters to the advice given whether one actually thinks it is an addiction or not, unless one decides that (a) it must be, and (b) that means it has to be removed from the diet entirely (which becomes a problem if you define it as sugar unless one is up for keto, I guess (which doesn't remove it entirely, but close enough perhaps), and I don't think that's the only or even the obvious first step for someone who thinks they have a problem moderating sweet things. (I would recommend to someone who thinks she has an addiction to alcohol that she consider quitting.)
Not really arguing just considering on this. Didn't psuLemon state that the body depends on sugar naturally? So if the physical dependency is already there its possible it is stronger for some people than others, perhaps leading to a more addictive like state.
in that case you can get addicted to water too...5 -
I have done what you have in the past and went cold turkey with the sugar, and I ended up binge eating and gaining all my weight back. So now I just have smaller amounts. I won't buy a whole family size block of Cadbury's chocolate, a whole pack of tim tams, a whole bag of fun-size mars bars and say 'oh I will just have a small amount each day'. No. Doesn't work for me.
What I will do is say, buy one mars bar or a kit kat or a small ice-cream. Sit and eat and enjoy. I also like diet hot chocolates, fruit and sometimes diet yoghurt with no sugar.1 -
Another MFPer recommended this video. Although the focus is on carbs v fat, midway through there is a brain scan that is quite enlightening. https://proteinpower.com/drmike/2017/03/11/dr-david-ludwig-high-carb-vs-low-carb-vs-slow-carb-diets/
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Not in a calorie deficit of maintenance intake though. Don't buy into all the hype. People like Ludwig, Fong, etc. are majoring in the minors. Sugar isn't the issue of why people are obese or severely overweight. It's over consumption of calories.
If sugar was the MAIN reason, then you'd have to explain why other countries in the world who buy and consume more sugar than the US don't have the same obesity issues. Many industrialized countries have sugar laden products especially in Asia.
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Anytime you eat, your body will store fat/nutrients. You don't just need insulin. The same thing occurs with Acylation Stimulating Protein and Glucose Dependent Insulintropic Pepetide.
Net fat storage is driven off of energy balance regardless of the type of calorie.0 -
You may benefit from eating small meals every few hours. I did it for a different reason, but one of the benefits that came with it was I had no desire to eat sweets or overeat anything for that matter. It helps manage blood sugar. If I do treat myself to a sweet treat, I am able to control my urge to binge on them. I might just have a spoon full of ice cream and put the rest back. Getting enough chromium, magnesium, vitamin b3, omega-3, and biotin will help with blood sugar as well.2
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bettersusan wrote: »Sugar [...] is hard on our livers and kidneys, and I already have a rare, autoimmune liver disease.
Did your autoimmune disease specialist tell you that about sugar?0 -
Now THIS is good advice.beatyfamily1 wrote: »You may benefit from eating small meals every few hours. I did it for a different reason, but one of the benefits that came with it was I had no desire to eat sweets or overeat anything for that matter. It helps manage blood sugar. If I do treat myself to a sweet treat, I am able to control my urge to binge on them. I might just have a spoon full of ice cream and put the rest back. Getting enough chromium, magnesium, vitamin b3, omega-3, and biotin will help with blood sugar as well.
A.C.E. Certified Personal and Group Fitness Trainer
IDEA Fitness member
Kickboxing Certified Instructor
Been in fitness for 30 years and have studied kinesiology and nutrition
0 -
LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »LowCarb4Me2016 wrote: »So caffeine addiction isn't a thing now?
Technically, I think it's a dependency, not an addiction. It definitely can create a physical dependency that you will have (mild) physical withdrawal symptoms from.
On the other hand, alcohol CAN create a physical dependency, but that is not what determines alcohol addiction, and many, many alcoholics (or alcohol addicts) quit drinking without having serious withdrawal symptoms. (But people who quit should be aware that it can be life threatening to just stop drinking depending on their patterns. I did this after patterns that should have made me consider medical advice/supervision, it was unpleasant but I was okay, it was probably dumb.) The main issue for most alcoholics is much less a physical dependency than with quitting caffeine, but alcoholism fits the definition for addiction and caffeine dependency doesn't.Then there is nicotine, which is considered an addiction yet has another set of withdrawal issues entirely.
Nicotine probably could be considered both, but it definitely has a physical dependency element.
Sugar does not have a physical dependency element in that sense, and does not lead to physical withdrawal symptoms. (We know what causes keto flu, and it is not the same thing as withdrawal, and usually people talking about "withdrawal from sugar" aren't keto and are consuming plenty of food that breaks down to sugar in the body.)
However, that sugar does not create a physical dependence does not mean that it cannot be an addiction. I think eating addiction is probably more accurate, and it requires more than merely having trouble moderating some food, although it might be a continuum. I've seen interviews of some morbidly obese food addicts who I do think were every bit as addicted as an alcoholic, and I think binge eating disorder seems at least somewhat the same thing.
I also would agree with:Daddy78230 wrote: »I've quit smoking before, many, many times, before finally quitting several years ago. I've also had to cut the majority of my sugar and carbs from my diet due to health reasons. I would not say it's the same level, but it has a lot parallels. There's the habit and routine, the pleasurable associations...
I think this is because a huge part of quitting a bad habit IS these kinds of things, and an addiction is, among other things, a habit.
I don't really think it matters to the advice given whether one actually thinks it is an addiction or not, unless one decides that (a) it must be, and (b) that means it has to be removed from the diet entirely (which becomes a problem if you define it as sugar unless one is up for keto, I guess (which doesn't remove it entirely, but close enough perhaps), and I don't think that's the only or even the obvious first step for someone who thinks they have a problem moderating sweet things. (I would recommend to someone who thinks she has an addiction to alcohol that she consider quitting.)
Not really arguing just considering on this. Didn't psuLemon state that the body depends on sugar naturally? So if the physical dependency is already there its possible it is stronger for some people than others, perhaps leading to a more addictive like state.
I think he meant the body needs it, not that the body is dependent on it in an addictive manner. The body needs water, too, you're not going to say the body is addictive to water. Needing it to survive and being addicted are two different things.0 -
I buy bags of frozen berries instead. Has been working great.0
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