Can one build and maintain muscle on a keto diet?

ldwatene

So I've done a little bit of research into this type of diet and I'm quietly keen to give it a go.

My only concern is I'm mostly about muscle and strength. Just finished a 4 month mass cycle and half way through a 2 month cut cycle which I'll probably repeat before I move onto recomp.

As I still have a decent amount of extra fat I'd like to burn I'm wondering if keto would help me achieve this better without compromising on my strength and muscle goals.

Thoughts please.

AnvilHead

Keto is probably the worst possible approach for your goals. Protein is low (because protein is as insulogenic as carbs) and strength training is primarily fueled by glycogen, not fat. Glycogen comes from carbs, and carbs are also anti-catabolic.

Jthanmyfitnesspal

Weight loss is certainly about calorie reduction. You have to eat adequate protein (20-30% of calories). For the rest, it depends on what you do. If you do extended cardio, you need adequate carbs. If you lift, you need less, and eating lower carb helps you cut. I don't think it's particularly important to go ultra-low-carb. You will lose muscle as well as fat.

ldwatene

Awesome thanks for the feedback. That was pretty much what I figured. Good to have confirmation.

Gallowmere1984

AnvilHead wrote: »

Keto is probably the worst possible approach for your goals. Protein is low (because protein is as insulogenic as carbs) and strength training is primarily fueled by glycogen, not fat. Glycogen comes from carbs, and carbs are also anti-catabolic.

The second part is not necessarily true. If you look at a lot of Luis Villasenor's (DarthLuigi on Ketogains) stuff, he's shown quite definitively that acceptable (1g/lbs) protein intake will not prevent ketosis. About the only people using keto who go low on protein anymore, fall into one of three groups: type 2 diabetics, those using it as a treatment for things like seizures and the terribly misinformed.

The rest is pretty much entirely agreed upon, especially by me. My lifting sucked on keto, even with enough bulking kcals to gain 2.5 lbs/week.

sebastiansteinmann

Last thing I read was that the body does not cannibalize muscle for fuel until you go under 4% body fat. Guessing that's not a problem?

Working out in a ketonic state should not be a problem.

https://www.ruled.me/mythbusting-training-on-keto-diet/

Gallowmere1984

sebastiansteinmann wrote: »

Last thing I read was that the body does not cannibalize muscle for fuel until you go under 4% body fat. Guessing that's not a problem?

Working out in a ketonic state should not be a problem.

https://www.ruled.me/mythbusting-training-on-keto-diet/

It's more about the fact that, even when fat adapted, your strength output will be pretty crap when comparing a low-blood sugar and relatively glycogen depleted state, to higher BS and full glycogen stores.

That said, some powerlifters swear by "train low, compete high", so I'm inclined to at least give some credence to the idea that you're still building viable strength that will show itself once you replenish stores.

sebastiansteinmann

You actually dont get low blood sugar tho, only normal blood sugar. On a normal diet blood sugar is derived by the suger you put in your body, or have available in muscle/liver. But in a ketonic state fat is transformed into bloodsugar at a steady rate.

The first 1-2 weeks is probably hell tho, till the body adapts.

ldwatene

Hmm interesting views.

Gallowmere1984

sebastiansteinmann wrote: »

You actually dont get low blood sugar tho, only normal blood sugar. On a normal diet blood sugar is derived by the suger you put in your body, or have available in muscle/liver. But in a ketonic state fat is transformed into bloodsugar at a steady rate.

The first 1-2 weeks is probably hell tho, till the body adapts.

Except that's not what happens at all. Conversion of acetyl-coa to glucose is nearly non-existent in humans, though a pathway does exist for it. It does however, convert to pyruvate and lactate quite nicely while in ketosis. Energy sources? Yes. Glucose for blood sugar? No.

sebastiansteinmann

Brain needs blood sugar, I'm not dead. :-)
Ppl fast for a week only burning fat, and doing fine.

Record fast is over a year if I remember correctly.

Gallowmere1984

sebastiansteinmann wrote: »

Brain needs blood sugar, I'm not dead. :-)
Ppl fast for a week only burning fat, and doing fine.

Record fast is over a year if I remember correctly.

Gluconeogenesis doesn't tend to come directly from fatty acids. It does however come from a combination of pyruvate, lactate, glycerol and amino acids. Without the protein element, glycolysis doesn't occur.

That said, you're not necessarily wrong, just missing some key points. It's a big part of the reason why low protein keto diets should be avoided unless absolutely necessary for medical reasons. Since it's a demand driven process, the body is going to perform it when necessary, no matter if it's taking said AAs from the dietary blood pool, or stripping it from lean tissue.