When to take things to the next level?

sardelsa

I feel like there is so much information out there on bodybuilding, muscle and strength building, leaning out etc. Now I am aware of Helm's pyramids and what is most important .. but I feel like everytime I think I know what I’m doing, something new comes out and I think “shoot I’m not doing that, should I?” even though logic tells me that it’s probably not necessary. But of course my brain will say…Am I doing the best I really can? For example things like… carb cycling, refeeds, IF, creatine, BCAAs, protein/nutrient timing, insulin spiking, training style, fasted cardio, etc.

How do you know when to take things to the next level and move up the pyramid. How much difference will nutrient timing, carb cycling, specific supplementation really make, or is it a figure it out for yourself type thing.

What do you do that works for you? And how much research (if any) does it take for you to implement something new into your diet or training?

jseams1234

Yeah, it can be frustrating. The more you read and the deeper you get into fitness and lifting the more confusing it can get. For every study there is another study that says the previous program is junk and you should do it *this* way... then there are the folks that like to rewrite something, change a few terms, maybe the order and rebrand it as a new breakthrough. I often find myself doubting my program and what I'm doing as I read new research or opinions...

What I've done is slowly find what works best for me - something that provides definitive results based on time tested methods and stick to that. Resist the temptation to change things based on opinion pieces or "new" research unless what I find makes sense to me and doesn't require a drastic overhaul. I don't much care to constantly mess with something that is working.

Gallowmere1984

I am anal as hell about everything. Be careful, as it can consume you. If I had any kind of life outside of work and training, I'd be screwed.

Really, just hitting the bottom three tiers of said pyramids will cover about 90%+ of your results, and even if you skip the top tier altogether, you're only losing roughly 1-2%.

It's really a personal judgment call, but if you're really worried about it, then you may as well just invest the mental energy wasted on worrying, into actually doing.

trigden1991

For 98% of people (especially on these forums), the rules of calories in/calories out and making reasonable food choices is enough to achieve their goals. However there are others who are more advanced in their lifting/bodybuilding "careers" who implement some other mentioned eating styles/training methods/meal timings to achieve beyond average results.

What exactly is your goal? Without knowing that it's hard to give any real advice.

AnvilHead

You'd probably get a lot out of actually reading Helms' Pyramids books (there are actually two - one devoted to nutrition and one devoted to training). He addresses the subjects from an athlete perspective as opposed to a genpop perspective and accordingly, goes into greater depth and tailors the advice accordingly. He is a competitive powerlifter, bodybuilder and Olympic lifter, and his co-authors (Andrea Valdez and Andy Morgan) are both athletes also. Andrea Valdez is a figure competitor and Andy Morgan is a trainer and the owner of rippedbody.jp. The research Eric cites is up to date and everything in the books is solid, evidence-based stuff - no woo.

(Disclaimer: I don't have any affiliation or interest, financial or otherwise - just suggesting something I've found to be an excellent source of information)

leajas1

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

I am anal as hell about everything. Be careful, as it can consume you. If I had any kind of life outside of work and training, I'd be screwed.

Really, just hitting the bottom three tiers of said pyramids will cover about 90%+ of your results, and even if you skip the top tier altogether, you're only losing roughly 1-2%.

It's really a personal judgment call, but if you're really worried about it, then you may as well just invest the mental energy wasted on worrying, into actually doing.

Yes. I think it's really important to find programs/information from people and sources you can, to the best of your knowledge, trust (science (real science) based programs/information).

Then, there really is no end game here right (unless you're thinking about competition)? You've got the time to spend, so spend some months to a year trying something that seems in line with your current goals and see what it does for you. Then if you want, you can try another that seems in line with your goals at that point. Then report back to us.

Rammer123

jseams1234 wrote: »

Yeah, it can be frustrating. The more you read and the deeper you get into fitness and lifting the more confusing it can get. For every study there is another study that says the previous program is junk and you should do it *this* way... then there are the folks that like to rewrite something, change a few terms, maybe the order and rebrand it as a new breakthrough. I often find myself doubting my program and what I'm doing as I read new research or opinions...

What I've done is slowly find what works best for me - something that provides definitive results based on time tested methods and stick to that. Resist the temptation to change things based on opinion pieces or "new" research unless what I find makes sense to me and doesn't require a drastic overhaul. I don't much care to constantly mess with something that is working.

I agree. Find what works for you, learn about WHY certain programs are having you do certain things on certain days. The grip, the rep range, the number of sets, the number of exercises, the types of exercises, etc. All these things change the program and if you find out why you're doing certain things, you can tailor your workouts and create your own that are based around your goals.

My best advice is that there is not set point where it's like, alright, ive been training for X amount of time, now its time to do all this other "advanced level" stuff now. Take things one at a time. Try carb cycling, see how it effects YOUR training, see how you feel, see if you get any change in your weight loss/gain. Then try fasted cardio on a cut and see how it feels and see if you feel you have better results. It's all a process, and anyone claiming to have ALL the answers is either delusional or lying. It just takes time and consistent learning to really figure it out for yourself.

For me, it doesn't really take that much research for me to give it a go. If it is someone I trusted and heard the information from, I give it a try in terms of diet and training. Somethings for me get bagged pretty quick. I think I tried paleo for about 2 weeks and I it was just tough for me to stay excited about it. I've done keto, I've tried carb cycling, I've tried training in the lower rep ranges, higher rep ranges, powerlifting programs, hypertrophy programs just to see what I ENJOY and what works for ME. Currently I do morning fasted cardio with some BCAA's pre and during, usually do intermittent fasting, and don't eat until like 2:00ish, never really been hungry in the mornings, although I love breakfast foods. Train in the evening, push, pull, legs, push, pull, legs, rest. Start with lower rep ranges 4-8 for the first couple exercises, then move into 8-12 reps and finish off with a couple at 15-20.

Everyone is truly different mainly in their enjoyment. What good is it if you're maximizing your results to their fullest potential training 6x per week for 90 minutes but training is just super boring and unenjoyable.

Test things out, see how they work and go from there.

ndj1979

for me, keeping my training and micros/macros as spot on as possible is going to be as far as I can go. I like going out and clowning around on the weekends too much ...

but it all comes down to your goals and how far you want to go with it ...

JoRocka

When I find my baseline performance suffering- then I tweak.

Like- meal timing- used to be not that relevant to me. But I got up in heavier weights- suddenly it became a lot more mission critical.

Dance class- after 8 hours of work- 2 hours of lifting- 1.5 hrs into dancing- I needed a snack- because by 2-2.5 hours- I was glassy eyed and it was difficult to speak with me and I couldn't process instructions.

That's when I make adjustments.

When performance suffers. And I mean really suffers- not just "I'm having a *kitten* day"

sardelsa

Oh wow thanks everyone, great to see different perspectives.

As for me, I think it is more considerations for the future (as in how important is it to even worry about). I really have to get my sleep and recovery sorted first, then actually track my macros (I only track lightly).

So far my progress has been pretty good... I am not thinking about competing (in bikini) but not counting it out 100% in the future (if I do it will be 6+ years from now). I have had two pretty successful bulk cycles, I've had no real issues cutting although I don't know if things could be better (in terms of lowering BF%/reducing stubborn fat, etc) but overall I am reaching my goals.

What are my goals? Good question. Mostly aesthetic at the moment to reach some ideal of what I feel my body should look like. A little bit more muscle here and there, little bit leaner, etc. Nothing too drastic but I know it won't be easy either. If that makes sense.

Gallowmere1984

sardelsa wrote: »

Oh wow thanks everyone, great to see different perspectives.

As for me, I think it is more considerations for the future (as in how important is it to even worry about). I really have to get my sleep and recovery sorted first, then actually track my macros (I only track lightly).

So far my progress has been pretty good... I am not thinking about competing (in bikini) but not counting it out 100% in the future (if I do it will be 6+ years from now). I have had two pretty successful bulk cycles, I've had no real issues cutting although I don't know if things could be better (in terms of lowering BF%/reducing stubborn fat, etc) but overall I am reaching my goals.

What are my goals? Good question. Mostly aesthetic at the moment to reach some ideal of what I feel my body should look like. A little bit more muscle here and there, little bit leaner, etc. Nothing too drastic but I know it won't be easy either. If that makes sense.

Vague goals are good. I prefer them for the most part, second only to my ideal for me: the unobtainable. You'll never stop pushing if you really want something that you probably can't have (a 2100+ raw and unwrapped total, in my case).

gym4life64

The internet has a lot of good info, and a lot of bad info also. Because of looking for the "perfect" program, sometimes we get training or diet ADD. Meaning first YOU have buy into the program. Believe in it. Then give it a fair chance. If we are always changing the meat and potato's of the program, how do we know what works?

sardelsa

Gallowmere1984 wrote: »

sardelsa wrote: »

Oh wow thanks everyone, great to see different perspectives.

As for me, I think it is more considerations for the future (as in how important is it to even worry about). I really have to get my sleep and recovery sorted first, then actually track my macros (I only track lightly).

So far my progress has been pretty good... I am not thinking about competing (in bikini) but not counting it out 100% in the future (if I do it will be 6+ years from now). I have had two pretty successful bulk cycles, I've had no real issues cutting although I don't know if things could be better (in terms of lowering BF%/reducing stubborn fat, etc) but overall I am reaching my goals.

What are my goals? Good question. Mostly aesthetic at the moment to reach some ideal of what I feel my body should look like. A little bit more muscle here and there, little bit leaner, etc. Nothing too drastic but I know it won't be easy either. If that makes sense.

Vague goals are good. I prefer them for the most part, second only to my ideal for me: the unobtainable. You'll never stop pushing if you really want something that you probably can't have (a 2100+ raw and unwrapped total, in my case).

Hey why not shoot high and see where you land. I think there is nothing wrong with that. But wow that is and would be an insane amount of weight!

Oh and @AnvilHead thanks! I will definitely check out those books by Helms, sounds like great info for my collection.

Yea I try not to mess around too much with my training... that is one thing I try to keep fairly consistent. I have found what works and I cling to it for dear life (I am sure that can also be a negative because I don't really branch out and explore too much...) I have played around a little with nutrient timing.. and just recently started calorie cycling, but it is too early to tell if it is helping.. it does keep me stay in a deficit so I will give it that. But otherwise I don't do anything special