Starting Strength on calorie deficit?
cdahl383
Posts: 726 Member
Looking to start the Starting Strength program within the next week or two, but wondering what I should expect or change (if anything) regarding my calorie intake. I'm currently eating at a calorie deficit (500 cal below maintenance) while lifting weight at home (dumbbells, push-ups, etc) and walking every night. I haven't weighed myself in a while, but the weight is definitely coming off as my clothes are fitting much better and I'm also getting stronger with my lifts.
My question is, I'd like to start doing the Starting Strength program, but if I continue to eat in a calorie deficit, will that make doing the program useless as it recommends being in a calorie surplus while lifting? I'm definitely over 20% bodyfat, so most things I've read state I should focus on dropping below 20% bodyfat or even to 15% bodyfat before I even start to think about bulking.
I'm no bodybuilder, but I have put on some level of muscle over the years from lifting weights at the gym and at home. I'm assuming I can still make strength gains as I've never done any compound lifting exercises before (potential for newbie gains in some areas maybe), but I'm guessing zero mass gains as I'm simply not eating enough to do that.
Any advice or input? Thanks!
My question is, I'd like to start doing the Starting Strength program, but if I continue to eat in a calorie deficit, will that make doing the program useless as it recommends being in a calorie surplus while lifting? I'm definitely over 20% bodyfat, so most things I've read state I should focus on dropping below 20% bodyfat or even to 15% bodyfat before I even start to think about bulking.
I'm no bodybuilder, but I have put on some level of muscle over the years from lifting weights at the gym and at home. I'm assuming I can still make strength gains as I've never done any compound lifting exercises before (potential for newbie gains in some areas maybe), but I'm guessing zero mass gains as I'm simply not eating enough to do that.
Any advice or input? Thanks!
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Replies
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On a Caloric deficit, you'll be much less likely to put on any muscle. However, SS is a very good program to begin with. You should be able to get stronger, while keeping most of your existing muscle - at least, more than you would without strength training. If you do happen to put on muscle? Bonus.
And by the time you get sub 15% BF, you'll have a decent strength base to make any purposeful bulking you do easier.4 -
IMO you should be fine. Your deficit is moderate so I wouldn't worry about it. SS is a good program. Have fun.1
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Keep your protein high. At the very least 1g/lbs. If you have not lifted in a while there is a good chance you can recomp, for a little while at least, gaining muscle and loosing fat at the same time.
Once you are at a standstill you will have to make the decision if you want to increase your calories to bulk or keep them in a deficit to continue your cut.
Also, most people with extra body fat are insulin resistant, it is good to practice carb cycling if this is the case for you. Take in low gi carbs a few hours before you workout. Right after you workout take in some fast acting protein and fast acting carbs, many people use pixy stix. Right after you work out your muscles are insulin sensitive meaning your muscles will allow more glucose into your muscles to rebuild them. If you are insulin resistant most of the carbs you take in creates an insulin spike, your muscles cannot hold much of the glucose and instead it goes to your adipose tissues.4 -
Also, take creatine monohydrate, it will help you loose weight, gain muscle and improve cognition. It is one of the most studied supplements on the market and it is completely safe as long as you do not have a per-existing kidney disease.
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Do you really need to eat that much protein? I need to weigh myself again but I'm sure I'm around 200lbs right now. 200g of protein is a lot when only eating 2300-2400 calories a day. I guess I can just have another protein shake at the end of the day if I'm falling short. I thought I read somewhere where you only need 1g per 1lb of LBM. Maybe I got that mixed up. I have upped my protein though over the past month or so since I started getting back on track. I've been eating 150-160g on average.
I've never done any compound lifts before in my life. Never any serious squats, deadlifts, bench press, overhead press, power clean, etc. I've just used machines at the gym and dumbbells, etc. So some lifts will be completely new to me (especially my lower body) whereas certain lifts won't be new.
Never tried carb cycling before. How can you tell if you're insulin resistant? I have no clue how much bodyfat I have, but I"m guessing 20-25% range. I'm guessing if I dropped down into the 175-180lb range I'd look much better.
I've read a little on creatine. I read mostly positive stuff but some negative stuff. I don't have any kidney issues or any other health issues, so maybe it's worth a shot. I thought people mostly took that when bulking and looking to add muscle though.0 -
it's okay to wing it when you're just getting started with a strength thing, imo. don't wing the programme itself, but the eating thing . . . well, if you're constantly starving and/or find that you just run out of gas when you go to lift, then tinker a bit. my newbie experience was done on 1200 calories a day not counting manic bike-riding too, and i progressed for a couple of months with the weight training before it dawned on me i was out of my mind and i started eating more like a person who lifts.
i have the book too and recommend it constantly, but tbh not for the nutrition chapters
i like rippetoe for being one of the least-sexist sources out there, but with that said i believe that for that part of it he was specifically addressing people who're wanting to 'grow'. if you're not in that group you don't have to take it too seriously. 1 -
I'm 6'2 and currently 215lbish. I started my journey here at 288lbs and ran until I hit around 250 when I realized I needed to add strength training to my life. In November I hit 215lbs and have been able to remain there while slowly(I hope) converting my body from fat mass to lean muscle. I am assuming this is the case as my clothing sizes have all changed and I can see muscle definition where there was none before. I could probably do more with bulking and cutting but am not ready yet mentally to start bulking and cutting. I think you could make much faster gains on starting strength if you were eating in a surplus but I believe if your stressing your body enough it has no choice but to adapt and grow even if it is a bit slower you have time.
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creatine causes your cells to retain water which holds nutrients that they require while exercising and allows you to maybe squeak out an extra rep or 2 or a set but its no miracle drug. Persona.ly I gave myself 8 months before I started using it. I gained 3-5lbs of weight right away which I assume is water retention. I have had a side effect which was chronic dry mouth which lasted about a month until I just started slamming water all day every day.0
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Also, take creatine monohydrate, it will help you loose weight, gain muscle and improve cognition. It is one of the most studied supplements on the market and it is completely safe as long as you do not have a per-existing kidney disease.
It certainly won't help you lose weight or improve cognition.
Since it causes intramuscular water retention and does nothing for the fatty tissues that make up the brain.
But it is good for building muscle and recovery.lsutton484 wrote: »creatine causes your cells to retain water which holds nutrients that they require while exercising and allows you to maybe squeak out an extra rep or 2 or a set but its no miracle drug. Persona.ly I gave myself 8 months before I started using it. I gained 3-5lbs of weight right away which I assume is water retention. I have had a side effect which was chronic dry mouth which lasted about a month until I just started slamming water all day every day.
You definitely need to make sure you get a good quantity of water when supplementing anything... especially creatine.1 -
Your protein requirement is going to be higher when cutting than it otherwise would be. It will help spare as much muscle as possible. It's kind of a good, better, best situation.2
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Your protein requirement is going to be higher when cutting than it otherwise would be. It will help spare as much muscle as possible. It's kind of a good, better, best situation.1
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In the words of Coach Rip: YNDTP
"You're Not Doing The Program"
http://startingstrength.com/article/a_clarification
I presume you have read The Book?
Revise your diet goals or choose a program that is more forgiving if you are thinking long-term.
I am a fan of SS and Coach Rippetoe but you are going to burn up quickly if you aren't eating enough.
First:
You are supposed to eat to grow on SS with little concern for fat gains. That is the opposite what you are working towards, eh?
Second:
Coach Rip has made it clear many times that the target demographic for SS is mainly skinny kids in their teens and 20's.
"The Barbell Prescription" is essentially a supplement to Starting Strength that includes modifications for lifters north of 35...
Running SS when you are pushing 40 is going to be rough.
You may get away with it for a while if you are willing to eat enough protein and carbs at Maintenance but that will not last forever either.
Something like "Bigger Leaner Stronger" will work better if you want to cut.
StrongLifts5x5 might be a bit better also because you start with an empty bar.
You will be able to cut on it in the beginning due to the volume increase.
When you start to stall it basically becomes 3x5 (SS) anyway. Once you stall a few times you can re-evaluate your goals.
Greyskull LP might be a good choice also.
I listed a program here that is more forgiving as well because it has a rep range instead of being sets across:
http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10558904/heavy-lifting-for-beginners/p2
YMMV. Good luck and congrats on realizing strength training is important. I mean that.
There are lots of people here willing to give you tips and advice.
If you are lucky some of it will even be good!3 -
Looking to start the Starting Strength program within the next week or two, but wondering what I should expect or change (if anything) regarding my calorie intake. I'm currently eating at a calorie deficit (500 cal below maintenance) while lifting weight at home (dumbbells, push-ups, etc) and walking every night. I haven't weighed myself in a while, but the weight is definitely coming off as my clothes are fitting much better and I'm also getting stronger with my lifts.
My question is, I'd like to start doing the Starting Strength program, but if I continue to eat in a calorie deficit, will that make doing the program useless as it recommends being in a calorie surplus while lifting? I'm definitely over 20% bodyfat, so most things I've read state I should focus on dropping below 20% bodyfat or even to 15% bodyfat before I even start to think about bulking.
I'm no bodybuilder, but I have put on some level of muscle over the years from lifting weights at the gym and at home. I'm assuming I can still make strength gains as I've never done any compound lifting exercises before (potential for newbie gains in some areas maybe), but I'm guessing zero mass gains as I'm simply not eating enough to do that.
Any advice or input? Thanks!
It won't make the program useless. It recommends a surplus because it's really geared towards your typical beginners who are looking to put on mass and make linear strength gains. You will still get stronger in a deficit and if you haven't lifted much, you're likely to have some limited noob gains...you will retain the lean mass you have which is a good thing.
I ran Starting Strength years ago when I was dieting and I made good progress...it wasn't as fast or linear as it would have been in maintenance or a surplus, but I made good progress.2 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Also, take creatine monohydrate, it will help you loose weight, gain muscle and improve cognition. It is one of the most studied supplements on the market and it is completely safe as long as you do not have a per-existing kidney disease.
It certainly won't help you lose weight or improve cognition.
Since it causes intramuscular water retention and does nothing for the fatty tissues that make up the brain.
But it is good for building muscle and recovery.lsutton484 wrote: »creatine causes your cells to retain water which holds nutrients that they require while exercising and allows you to maybe squeak out an extra rep or 2 or a set but its no miracle drug. Persona.ly I gave myself 8 months before I started using it. I gained 3-5lbs of weight right away which I assume is water retention. I have had a side effect which was chronic dry mouth which lasted about a month until I just started slamming water all day every day.
You definitely need to make sure you get a good quantity of water when supplementing anything... especially creatine.
No, this statement is wrong.
https://authoritynutrition.com/what-is-creatine/
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Do you really need to eat that much protein? I need to weigh myself again but I'm sure I'm around 200lbs right now. 200g of protein is a lot when only eating 2300-2400 calories a day. I guess I can just have another protein shake at the end of the day if I'm falling short. I thought I read somewhere where you only need 1g per 1lb of LBM. Maybe I got that mixed up. I have upped my protein though over the past month or so since I started getting back on track. I've been eating 150-160g on average.
I've never done any compound lifts before in my life. Never any serious squats, deadlifts, bench press, overhead press, power clean, etc. I've just used machines at the gym and dumbbells, etc. So some lifts will be completely new to me (especially my lower body) whereas certain lifts won't be new.
Never tried carb cycling before. How can you tell if you're insulin resistant? I have no clue how much bodyfat I have, but I"m guessing 20-25% range. I'm guessing if I dropped down into the 175-180lb range I'd look much better.
I've read a little on creatine. I read mostly positive stuff but some negative stuff. I don't have any kidney issues or any other health issues, so maybe it's worth a shot. I thought people mostly took that when bulking and looking to add muscle though.
Creatine has many uses.
https://authoritynutrition.com/what-is-creatine/
You should keep protein high if you are wanting to loose fat and gain muscle.
http://journal.frontiersin.org/article/10.3389/fnut.2017.00013/full
https://authoritynutrition.com/how-much-protein-per-day/2 -
stanmann571 wrote: »Also, take creatine monohydrate, it will help you loose weight, gain muscle and improve cognition. It is one of the most studied supplements on the market and it is completely safe as long as you do not have a per-existing kidney disease.
It certainly won't help you lose weight or improve cognition.
Since it causes intramuscular water retention and does nothing for the fatty tissues that make up the brain.
But it is good for building muscle and recovery.lsutton484 wrote: »creatine causes your cells to retain water which holds nutrients that they require while exercising and allows you to maybe squeak out an extra rep or 2 or a set but its no miracle drug. Persona.ly I gave myself 8 months before I started using it. I gained 3-5lbs of weight right away which I assume is water retention. I have had a side effect which was chronic dry mouth which lasted about a month until I just started slamming water all day every day.
You definitely need to make sure you get a good quantity of water when supplementing anything... especially creatine.
No, this statement is wrong.
https://authoritynutrition.com/what-is-creatine/Although it can be beneficial for the elderly and those with reduced stores, research shows no effect on brain function in healthy adults (42).
Like I said. No effect on cognition.2 -
Doing Starting Strength on a calorie deficit is fine. It will build strength and help retain muscle.
You'd probably do just fine with 0.6g to 0.8g of protein per pound of body weight. I think people here over-sell protein a bit.
http://bayesianbodybuilding.com/the-myth-of-1glb-optimal-protein-intake-for-bodybuilders/3 -
stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Also, take creatine monohydrate, it will help you loose weight, gain muscle and improve cognition. It is one of the most studied supplements on the market and it is completely safe as long as you do not have a per-existing kidney disease.
It certainly won't help you lose weight or improve cognition.
Since it causes intramuscular water retention and does nothing for the fatty tissues that make up the brain.
But it is good for building muscle and recovery.lsutton484 wrote: »creatine causes your cells to retain water which holds nutrients that they require while exercising and allows you to maybe squeak out an extra rep or 2 or a set but its no miracle drug. Persona.ly I gave myself 8 months before I started using it. I gained 3-5lbs of weight right away which I assume is water retention. I have had a side effect which was chronic dry mouth which lasted about a month until I just started slamming water all day every day.
You definitely need to make sure you get a good quantity of water when supplementing anything... especially creatine.
No, this statement is wrong.
https://authoritynutrition.com/what-is-creatine/Although it can be beneficial for the elderly and those with reduced stores, research shows no effect on brain function in healthy adults (42).
Like I said. No effect on cognition.
...
Here is another article that explains it differently.
https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/this-is-your-brain-on-creatine.html2 -
Sorry, but how long have you ran Starting Strength for?BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »Doing Starting Strength on a calorie deficit is fine. It will build strength and help retain muscle.
You'd probably do just fine with 0.5g of protein per pound of body weight. I think people here over-sell protein a bit.
Why are you a better authority on the program over Coach Rippetoe?
What are your starting and ending poundages based on "0.5g of protein per pound of body weight"?
I think you may mean well but that seems like terrible advice.
* EDIT, I see you changed the post to make the recommendation more reasonable.
But still, Coach Rip generally expects you to eat to grow on his program.
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stanmann571 wrote: »stanmann571 wrote: »Also, take creatine monohydrate, it will help you loose weight, gain muscle and improve cognition. It is one of the most studied supplements on the market and it is completely safe as long as you do not have a per-existing kidney disease.
It certainly won't help you lose weight or improve cognition.
Since it causes intramuscular water retention and does nothing for the fatty tissues that make up the brain.
But it is good for building muscle and recovery.lsutton484 wrote: »creatine causes your cells to retain water which holds nutrients that they require while exercising and allows you to maybe squeak out an extra rep or 2 or a set but its no miracle drug. Persona.ly I gave myself 8 months before I started using it. I gained 3-5lbs of weight right away which I assume is water retention. I have had a side effect which was chronic dry mouth which lasted about a month until I just started slamming water all day every day.
You definitely need to make sure you get a good quantity of water when supplementing anything... especially creatine.
No, this statement is wrong.
https://authoritynutrition.com/what-is-creatine/Although it can be beneficial for the elderly and those with reduced stores, research shows no effect on brain function in healthy adults (42).
Like I said. No effect on cognition.
...
Here is another article that explains it differently.
https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/this-is-your-brain-on-creatine.html
The studies are clear. Unless you have a deficiency(vegetarians) or injury. Creatine has no measurable impact on cognition.1 -
Sorry, but how long have you ran Starting Strength for?BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »Doing Starting Strength on a calorie deficit is fine. It will build strength and help retain muscle.
You'd probably do just fine with 0.5g of protein per pound of body weight. I think people here over-sell protein a bit.
Why are you a better authority on the program over Coach Rippetoe?
What are your starting and ending poundages based on "0.5g of protein per pound of body weight"?
I think you may mean well but that seems like terrible advice.
Yet, you suggest Stronglifts on a cut, which is a complete ripoff of Starting Strength.2 -
Actually they are both "ripoffs" of Reg Parks' and Bill Starr's works if you want to think of it that way._dracarys_ wrote: »Yet, you suggest Stronglifts, which is a complete ripoff of Starting Strength.
What does that have to do with anything?
Coach Rip and Mehdi both acknowledge they didn't come up with their programs in a vacuum.
I recommended several programs. My first was actually "Bigger Leaner Stronger."
My recommendations were based on his stated goals.
It looks like @BusyRaeNOTBusty actually edited her protein recommendation to make it more reasonable.
Now you edited your post to add "on a cut". That is fine.
I was clear about how that would only get you so far on SL5x5 and again, it was not my first recommendation.1 -
Actually they are both "ripoffs" of Reg Parks' and Bill Starr's works if you want to think of it that way._dracarys_ wrote: »Yet, you suggest Stronglifts, which is a complete ripoff of Starting Strength.
What does that have to do with anything?
Coach Rip and Mehdi both acknowledge they didn't come up with their programs in a vacuum.
I recommended several programs. My first was actually "Bigger Leaner Stronger."
It looks like @BusyRaeNOTBusty actually edited her protein recommendation to make it more reasonable.
Because you said:StrongLifts5x5 might be a bit better also because you start with an empty bar.
You will be able to cut on it in the beginning due to the volume increase.
Then:Sorry, but how long have you ran Starting Strength for?
Why are you a better authority on the program over Coach Rippetoe?
when the above poster said Starting Strength was fine in a deficit. I was just pointing out that they're pretty similar programs to be arguing which should be done on a cut vs. which one should not.0 -
"You will be able to cut on {SL5x5} in the beginning due to the volume increase."_dracarys_ wrote: »when the above poster said Starting Strength was fine in a deficit. I was just pointing out that they're pretty similar programs to be arguing which should be done on a cut vs. which one should not.
There can be a lot of difference, volume and intensity wise, between 25 reps and 15 reps at roughly comparable RMs.
Works sets, not counting warm-ups:
3 sets * 5 reps * 45 lbs = 675 lbs of work
5 sets * 5 reps * 45 lbs = 1125 lbs of work. Almost twice as much. Simple math.
Which will have a higher CO? Therefore which would help you cut faster?
I don't think that should need explaining. Similar programs does not mean identical intensity.
But my point of contention was the original 0.5g of protein that was recommended, not SS vs SL.
She fixed that.1 -
Strength focused lifting programs have been shown to be best for muscle retention during a cut. The OPs goals are fat loss first, strength gain second. Yes Riptoe created his program with strength gain as number one priority which means weight gain will occur. This doesn't mean that the weight routine and progression can't effectively be used in a cut.
I actually prefer Stronglifts because I don't like power cleans. And I still think protein is over hyped.
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I do not disagree with this in principle. I responded to your original 0.5g recommendation.BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »Strength focused lifting programs have been shown to be best for muscle retention during a cut. The OPs goals are fat loss first, strength gain second. Yes Riptoe created his program with strength gain as number one priority which means weight gain will occur. This doesn't mean that the weight routine and progression can't effectively be used in a cut.
I actually prefer Stronglifts because I don't like power cleans. And I still think protein is over hyped.
That is just too low for a guy to build muscle efficiently IME, especially one who is not a kid.
0.8g or more I am fine with
I coach fighters. I've put almost every one of them is on a lifting program.
Most are on 5/3/1 but that is a different discussion.2 -
"You will be able to cut on {SL5x5} in the beginning due to the volume increase."_dracarys_ wrote: »when the above poster said Starting Strength was fine in a deficit. I was just pointing out that they're pretty similar programs to be arguing which should be done on a cut vs. which one should not.
There can be a lot of difference, volume and intensity wise, between 25 reps and 15 reps at roughly comparable RMs.
Works sets, not counting warm-ups:
3 sets * 5 reps * 45 lbs = 675 lbs of work
5 sets * 5 reps * 45 lbs = 1125 lbs of work. Almost twice as much. Simple math.
Which will have a higher CO? Therefore which would help you cut faster?
I don't think that should need explaining. Similar programs does not mean identical intensity.
But my point of contention was the original 0.5g of protein that was recommended, not SS vs SL.
She fixed that.
Ah, I see now.
Carry on.1 -
Not sure why I am bothering to defend myself but, my original recommendation of 0.5g was given because I mistakenly thought OP was a 200lb woman (I didn't look at the picture), who would have has a lower percentage of lean body mass. Most things I've read base protein needs on lean body mass, 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of lean body mass. A 200lb woman with 40% body fat, would only need 96g of protein. When you realized OP was a man, I grabbed an article quickly and changed my answer.1
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Fair enough. Yeah, no real need to defend yourself.BusyRaeNOTBusty wrote: »Not sure why I am bothering to defend myself but, my original recommendation of 0.5g was given because I mistakenly thought OP was a 200lb woman (I didn't look at the picture), who would have has a lower percentage of lean body mass. Most things I've read base protein needs on lean body mass, 0.8 to 1 gram per pound of lean body mass. A 200lb woman with 40% body fat, would only need 96g of protein. When you realized OP was a man, I grabbed an article quickly and changed my answer.
But I recommend my women fighters get at least 0.8g as well.
Eat like a man and train like a man. Literally.
Women train against the men in my program so fighting other women is often a piece of cake.
No weight classes when training in my gym either.
Now I want cake.
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OP here...Well here's another thought, it's not like I'm a complete blob right now, I could try starting strength and eat on a small surplus to see what happens. I'm assuming if I eat 200-300 calories over my maintenance I'd put on some weight but not a ton and some would be muscle as well. I'm not completely against the idea of eating more while doing starting strength, I just thought it seemed more appropriate to get down to a lower BF % first.
I've read where you can only put on muscle so quickly, it's generally a pretty slow process. I've also read where a lot of people go nuts with the bulking, like eating 1000 calories over maintenance. No way that's all turning to muscle. I would think maybe 300 calories over maintenance would be reasonable, maybe 1/2 lb a week of weight gain, some of muscle, a little of it fat. Over the course of 3 months that would be around 12lbs. I wouldn't look very fat if I put 12lbs back on right now and a lot of that would ilkely be muscle.
Guess I'm sort of torn as to what direction I should go in. Continue to drop weight, or actually follow the program to the tee and see what happens. No way I'll be ripped in time for summer stuff anyway, summer is already here. I could start the program now, eat a little more, then at some point in the fall or winter start cutting down and by next summer be in awesome shape. I'm just not a huge fan of overeating like crazy and packing on tons of weight if it's not really necessary.1
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