LCHF/Keto - why eat more protein when losing weight?
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richb178
Posts: 47 Member
I've seen various protein requirements ranging from 1g/kg of current weight to 1.4g/kg of reference weight, as well as others. Then there are keto-calcs that suggest higher protein when you input a higher weight than your goal weight. So why is this?
Honestly, even the lowest number is still too high for me to comfortably eat. I'm completely full and sated at about 75% of the lowest suggested grams. I've only been doing this about a week, so should I expect an increased appetite after some time? Maybe my metabolism will speed up and then I'll want to eat more? Right now, I'm just eating two meals, breakfast and dinner, and I have no hunger. I don't feel right force feeding more protein.
Anyway, I did Atkins about 15 years ago and lost 150lbs. I found the old book and looked up the old diet and was surprised to see that there was no mention of minimum protein levels that I could find, or even for fat - just limit carbs to 20 and eat until you're satisfied. I'm sure that when I was on Atkins that I didn't eat anywhere near the levels of protein that I'm seeing suggested above, and I was riding my bike and getting stronger - not losing muscle mass.
Just a little confused (not light headed, lol).
On a related note, Atkins said to just add fat so that you are satisfied. I guess the idea is that your body fat stores supply the extra fat calories missing from your diet. I assume the same is true for LCHF/Keto, and the 75-80% fat level is for maintenance at a higher calorie level, and not for when losing weight? I think maybe I should buy a book.
Thanks.
Honestly, even the lowest number is still too high for me to comfortably eat. I'm completely full and sated at about 75% of the lowest suggested grams. I've only been doing this about a week, so should I expect an increased appetite after some time? Maybe my metabolism will speed up and then I'll want to eat more? Right now, I'm just eating two meals, breakfast and dinner, and I have no hunger. I don't feel right force feeding more protein.
Anyway, I did Atkins about 15 years ago and lost 150lbs. I found the old book and looked up the old diet and was surprised to see that there was no mention of minimum protein levels that I could find, or even for fat - just limit carbs to 20 and eat until you're satisfied. I'm sure that when I was on Atkins that I didn't eat anywhere near the levels of protein that I'm seeing suggested above, and I was riding my bike and getting stronger - not losing muscle mass.
Just a little confused (not light headed, lol).
On a related note, Atkins said to just add fat so that you are satisfied. I guess the idea is that your body fat stores supply the extra fat calories missing from your diet. I assume the same is true for LCHF/Keto, and the 75-80% fat level is for maintenance at a higher calorie level, and not for when losing weight? I think maybe I should buy a book.
Thanks.
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Replies
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Weight loss is calories in vs. calories out. Eat fewer calories than your body burns is a day - you're in a deficit.
When you are eating in a deficit, your body uses the food you eat, fat stores, and sometimes lean muscle mass for fuel.
Filling foods help you eat at a deficit (and feel comfortable). Protein, fiber, and fat are filling. Different combinations for different people.
Macros are protein, fat and carbs. The combination you choose to eat is up to you. Some people have health issues and need to manage carbs, other don't.
Protein is an important macro because it's like muscle insurance. If you want to minimize lean muscle mass while losing weight......eat adequate protein, strength train, and maintain a moderate deficit.
I don't eat low carb or keto. I've lost weight and re-gained. I won't be eating low carb for maintenance. My diet to lose weight, resembles my diet to maintain. Lifestyle changes for me.5 -
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I also want to add to what the person above stated is that aside from water protein is the most abundant material in the body. So it is really important.1
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OK, great, thanks - I understand and believe all of that, but it doesn't answer my question. I'll be more concise:
Why am I recommended to eat more protein while I'm fat and overweight than when I am at a healthy weight?
As I can't eat as much as recommended w/o force feeding myself, I'm just going to have to go with eating less than recommended for now. Maybe, in time, my appetite will increase and I can add more protein back into my diet. I'll also assume that I don't need to eat such a high percentage of fat while I'm losing weight and my body is supplying stored fat to keep me in ketosis (I suppose the scale will answer that question).0 -
OK, great, thanks - I understand and believe all of that, but it doesn't answer my question. I'll be more concise:
Why am I recommended to eat more protein while I'm fat and overweight than when I am at a healthy weight?
As I can't eat as much as recommended w/o force feeding myself, I'm just going to have to go with eating less than recommended for now. Maybe, in time, my appetite will increase and I can add more protein back into my diet. I'll also assume that I don't need to eat such a high percentage of fat while I'm losing weight and my body is supplying stored fat to keep me in ketosis (I suppose the scale will answer that question).
When I was obese I guestimated my bodyfat percentage and went with the 1g/lb of LEAN mass because I sure as hell wasn't about to eat 240g of protein when I weighed 240. It's a rough estimate so when the calculator guessed I had 125lbs of lean mass I added 15 as a buffer and ate 140g. Do you know your bf% roughly?0 -
The keto-calc gave a BF estimate and recommended 147g of protein if not exercising. I can't eat that w/o forcing it down. For example, today I ate 90g and I'm stuffed. I'm not going to worry about it because I feel great, but I'll look to see if protein starts trending up.0
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You don't need to base protein on your current weight, if you're overweight. Protein is for maintaining your lean mass. You don't need extra to maintain (!?) your fat mass.
If your authority quotes protein gram goals in terms of body weight, use a healthy goal weight as the basis, not your current weight. If your authority expresses it in terms of lean body mass (LBM), estimate that, and use that.
This is maybe one time that the estimate from a home scale (with a body fat % reading) may be adequate. Yeah, they're very inaccurate, but once you do the math to get a protein goal, it's probably within a few grams. Just round up.
Personally, I went with 0.6-0.8g protein per pound of goal weight while losing, but I'm not LCHF.0 -
OK, great, thanks - I understand and believe all of that, but it doesn't answer my question. I'll be more concise:
Why am I recommended to eat more protein while I'm fat and overweight than when I am at a healthy weight?
You aren't. The estimates I respect are .8-1 g per lb of LBM (needs an accurate body fat estimate) OR .65-.85 g per lb of a healthy goal weight (this is the one that converts to 1.4-1.9 g/kg of a healthy body weight. The idea is to protect against losing muscle, which indeed can be an issue with keto (see here: http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/).
You can probably get away with somewhat less anyway, especially if you have a whole lot to lose, as you are less likely to lose lean mass if you have a lot to lose (and also if your deficit is not huge).
That said, I can't imagine how 1g/kg would be tough, especially if one is already cutting carbs to 20 g or some such (I did keto for a bit and my carbs were more like 50 g, as I could not get in enough vegetables or the moderate amount of nuts and seeds I like at a lower level).
When I started and was QUITE obese, a gram per kg would have been about 90 g, which is basically what makes sense to me now -- my LBM is around 95 now that I've lost the weight.1 -
The keto-calc gave a BF estimate and recommended 147g of protein if not exercising. I can't eat that w/o forcing it down. For example, today I ate 90g and I'm stuffed. I'm not going to worry about it because I feel great, but I'll look to see if protein starts trending up.
Try this calculator, with your goal weight-
https://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/interactiveDRI/1 -
OK, great, thanks - I understand and believe all of that, but it doesn't answer my question. I'll be more concise:
Why am I recommended to eat more protein while I'm fat and overweight than when I am at a healthy weight?
As I can't eat as much as recommended w/o force feeding myself, I'm just going to have to go with eating less than recommended for now. Maybe, in time, my appetite will increase and I can add more protein back into my diet. I'll also assume that I don't need to eat such a high percentage of fat while I'm losing weight and my body is supplying stored fat to keep me in ketosis (I suppose the scale will answer that question).
The idea is to find low calorie foods rich in protein so that you get all the protein you need within your recommended calorie allotment. I'm not sure what your allotment is but I have little trouble getting 100g of protein, often closer to 115g, in the 1600 calories I eat per day. When I first started and I was not getting that much protein, I changed the foods not the amount of calories I was eating to reach my goal.
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When losing weight, extra protein is recommended to (a) reduce hunger and (b) help preserve muscle as you lose weight. The body tends to cannibalise muscle when losing weight, and eating more protein can reduce this effect.0
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Well, multiple keto-calcs have high protein recommendations when I put in my current weight, and kept those recommendations even on very high caloric restrictive diet plans. Using my goal weight, it was only in the 120's. And the .65-.85g/lbs HGW still gives 123 to 161 g of protein. I forced down about 125g of protein my first day, but it was not easy.lemurcat12 wrote: »You aren't. The estimates I respect are .8-1 g per lb of LBM (needs an accurate body fat estimate) OR .65-.85 g per lb of a healthy goal weight (this is the one that converts to 1.4-1.9 g/kg of a healthy body weight. The idea is to protect against losing muscle, which indeed can be an issue with keto (see here: http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/).
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Interesting. Using my goal weight(s), it came up with 70-80g of protein (and 400g of carbs!). That certainly matches more with what I feel like eating, and what I think I was eating about 15 years ago on Atkins (even though the recommendations is for a high carb diet). I don't exactly trust government recommendations, but if they think less protein is adequate, then I feel better about maybe splitting the difference and shooting for around 100g while losing weight.OliveGirl128 wrote: »Try this calculator, with your goal weight-
https://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/interactiveDRI/
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born_of_fire74 wrote: »
Yes, I think I need to look into other sources of protein. I'm sure I could get more protein eating steak, but that's too expensive - maybe once a week.The idea is to find low calorie foods rich in protein so that you get all the protein you need within your recommended calorie allotment. I'm not sure what your allotment is but I have little trouble getting 100g of protein, often closer to 115g, in the 1600 calories I eat per day. When I first started and I was not getting that much protein, I changed the foods not the amount of calories I was eating to reach my goal.0 -
I wonder of this is more of a problem with high carb diets? I've heard/seen/read that with low carb diets, burning ketones rather than glucose tends to preserve muscle.CattOfTheGarage wrote: »When losing weight, extra protein is recommended to (a) reduce hunger and (b) help preserve muscle as you lose weight. The body tends to cannibalise muscle when losing weight, and eating more protein can reduce this effect.
I also wonder if my heavy frame has extra muscle it can afford to lose while I lose about 1/2 my weight? Oh well, can't worry too much about it now. I'm pretty sure I'm not wasting away.
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Carbs are protein sparing - your body's preferred fuel.
So if you have carbs to burn for energy taking protein for fuel (whether from food or from lean mass) is less likely.
Part of the reason recovery drinks after extreme exercise are often 4:1 ratio of carbs to protein.4 -
Well, multiple keto-calcs have high protein recommendations when I put in my current weight, and kept those recommendations even on very high caloric restrictive diet plans. Using my goal weight, it was only in the 120's. And the .65-.85g/lbs HGW still gives 123 to 161 g of protein. I forced down about 125g of protein my first day, but it was not easy.lemurcat12 wrote: »You aren't. The estimates I respect are .8-1 g per lb of LBM (needs an accurate body fat estimate) OR .65-.85 g per lb of a healthy goal weight (this is the one that converts to 1.4-1.9 g/kg of a healthy body weight. The idea is to protect against losing muscle, which indeed can be an issue with keto (see here: http://caloriesproper.com/protein-ketosis-and-lean-mass/).
Some of the calculators don't adjust for the fact that you are going to be higher body fat when you need to lose a lot of weight. It's a problem (even more) with non keto calculators too, if they have a bodybuilding bias.
I generally eat 100 g, and I'm 5'3, 125 (and female), so I guess I'm not seeing what's so tough about 125 for a much larger man, especially if you are consuming only 20 g of carbs. 125 g of protein is 500 cal, 20 g of carbs is 80, so you still have lots and lots left for fat. What were you eating that you found so hard to consume, and what did you eat when gaining?1 -
I wonder of this is more of a problem with high carb diets? I've heard/seen/read that with low carb diets, burning ketones rather than glucose tends to preserve muscle.CattOfTheGarage wrote: »When losing weight, extra protein is recommended to (a) reduce hunger and (b) help preserve muscle as you lose weight. The body tends to cannibalise muscle when losing weight, and eating more protein can reduce this effect.
I also wonder if my heavy frame has extra muscle it can afford to lose while I lose about 1/2 my weight? Oh well, can't worry too much about it now. I'm pretty sure I'm not wasting away.
No, it's not more of a problem with high carb diets -- the opposite, actually. The calories proper link (from a low carb friendly source) I posted above is on topic -- you should check it out.
YES, it is true that if you have a lot to lose it's less of a deal, but for me preserving as much muscle as possible when losing (since you will lose some) was very important, as what's the point of being thin if you still have a mediocre body fat percentage.
I find it hard to understand how you have a healthy diet on keto without easily getting adequate protein, since for me including some lean (or not terribly fatty anyway) meat and veg was key, and the protein would add up easily. When you cut back on carbs so drastically protein tends to be part of what replaces it. That's why I was curious how you were eating. (I'd have a hard time eating just fat -- doesn't seem appealing.)0 -
Yes, I think I need to look into other sources of protein. I'm sure I could get more protein eating steak, but that's too expensive - maybe once a week.born_of_fire74 wrote: »The idea is to find low calorie foods rich in protein so that you get all the protein you need within your recommended calorie allotment. I'm not sure what your allotment is but I have little trouble getting 100g of protein, often closer to 115g, in the 1600 calories I eat per day. When I first started and I was not getting that much protein, I changed the foods not the amount of calories I was eating to reach my goal.
What are your current sources of protein and in what quantities do you eat them?
100 g of cooked chicken breast provides 31 g of protein. 3.5 ounces is a serving size for me, but I imagine yours is bigger. Do you have meat/eggs two meals a day?0 -
It's not inaccurate, there are plenty of opinions based on keto diets. I myself have used it in the past and had great success (in weight loss).. however it made me very sick in the long run.
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