Pick apart my strategy to warn me of future problems

neillc57

Hi,
I started with MFP on 5/6/17 at 257lb a 5'10". I bet I was way more than 35% fat and I am still pretty fat.
I track min macros of protein 150g, fat 75g, fiber 43g. Early on I had the protein much lower and it killed me in the gym. I also eat less driven by hunger but upping the macros for protein and fat drove me to hit calorie targets.
Set calories to be ~1900. I stick to this for almost all days. Certainly my averages stick to this.
At first I was losing 3lbs a week. Then things slowed down toward 1lbs / week. I read about NEAT and changed what I did (parked at the end of the grocery store and gym parking lots, added some more walking etc). Back up to 2lbs/week.
I only eat stuff I like eating or stuff I can make myself like eating (celery + something else with taste etc). I love nuts and meat and prefer this to stuff like ice cream etc. If I wanted ice cream then I would be looking to satisfy that want with the protein and fat macros. So maybe pick some high fat lower sugar version. Not happened yet but I think I could handle it if I did.
This morning I was 221lbs. I still look very fat. Gym is still going great.
Pretty much I eat when I am hungry but last night I had to hold off eating my late night nuts because I was eating early for everything. So I am feeling that at some point things are going to change and life is going to get tough (more hunger)
My diary is open. Each meal may be two different meals. I eat way too much salt. I believe resistant starches at breakfast are a key for me so that might explain the strange breakfasts.
So people who are further along than me feel free to tell me what mistakes I am making that you avoided etc. I like to read others diaries to get ideas about stuff I don't know about that I might like to eat!

French_Peasant

I think your approach sounds fabulous and your macros look great, especially the protein and fiber. Don't sweat the 1 lb per week--it's still a great loss, and concurrently, don't expect of seek the 3 lbs per week--it's not sustainable, but is more appropriate at the beginning if you have a very considerable amount of weight to lose. Also, (and you may already know this) be aware that the closer you get to goal, the slower it will be to pare off the last few pounds, and you will have to tighten up your calories as you lose weight.

If you've been doing this for almost 3 months, I don't think you're going to suddenly be struggling with hunger down the road. It sounds like you have the ability to look at it dispassionately and not freak out when you're a little hungry (resisting the nuts). To me, it sounds like you have a healthy approach and a very healthy mental attitude in place to succeed over the long haul. A bit of ice cream now and then isn't going to hurt, if you have an occasion where you really feel like ice cream.

I just glanced quickly through your diary--your logging looks impeccable. The only critique I would have is that you seem to have a lot of the same veg repeated, and no fruit that I noticed--I would just encourage you to branch out with your veg a little more so you are "eating the rainbow" and getting a broad cross-section of micros. I am, of course, a mom. All sorts of vegetables can be roasted or sauteed with garlic and spices and would be a great companion to the legume dishes you are making.

neillc57

French_Peasant wrote: »

If you've been doing this for almost 3 months, I don't think you're going to suddenly be struggling with hunger down the road. It sounds like you have the ability to look at it dispassionately and not freak out when you're a little hungry (resisting the nuts). To me, it sounds like you have a healthy approach and a very healthy mental attitude in place to succeed over the long haul. A bit of ice cream now and then isn't going to hurt, if you have an occasion where you really feel like ice cream.

For me the nuts are a big deal. I would buy a huge container of nuts and then pretty much eat them continuously until they were all gone. It's actually amazing that I don't have that problem now I am logging.
I do want to change something. I am thinking of shifting away from roasted and salted nuts to raw and unsalted. I might not like them but I will give it a try. I do eat some raw now like pecans. I use pecans to hit my fat macro when I am behind but don't have enough protein headroom for peanuts! The nuts are now going into the ballast which is my after 9pm fill up my macros nuts + meats etc time. Best bit of the day. I often fill up ballast early in the day with items I want to eat and then subtract from them as I eat other stuff. This way I avoid not being able to hit my macros at the end of the day.

French_Peasant wrote: »

I just glanced quickly through your diary--your logging looks impeccable

After only a few days I realized I have to weight everything exactly (no portions) and I stopped logging exercise and eating the calories. One thing I struggle with is drained weight. For example I just grabbed a tin of sardines in water (I try to get in some seafood most or every other day). Net WT 125g, Serving size 90g. Does net weight include the can weight? Is 90g the drained weight? The legal requirement hinges on if you consume the liquid normally. My problem is that if I weight it I am damn well eating it (fat off cooked meat, runoff from seafood etc! see later on asparagus).

French_Peasant wrote: »

The only critique I would have is that you seem to have a lot of the same veg repeated, and no fruit that I noticed--I would just encourage you to branch out with your veg a little more so you are "eating the rainbow" and getting a broad cross-section of micros. I am, of course, a mom. All sorts of vegetables can be roasted or sauteed with garlic and spices and would be a great companion to the legume dishes you are making.

I have identified this myself. It's driven by two things. I buy stuff at costco and the amount are huge. So if I buy celery its going to be massive amount of celery every day. I used to do the huge salad boxes (colorful lettuce). I was eating almost a box a day. I went off it mainly because of the effect on my teeth (feel funny afterward, stuff sticks). Had to clean them after. Recently I tried asparagus but I found it goes off quick. I really liked it. Another issue is that I weight the whole stork so I am damn well eating the woody bit at the end! That can be hard. You will see yesterday I eat some green beans. I really liked them so I will do again.
The fruit thing I noticed and I really like fruit. I just haven't gotten to it and I can't buy at costco. Quantities too high.

Thank you very much for your input. I will work on more fruit and veg variability.

stanmann571

neillc57 wrote: »

French_Peasant wrote: »

If you've been doing this for almost 3 months, I don't think you're going to suddenly be struggling with hunger down the road. It sounds like you have the ability to look at it dispassionately and not freak out when you're a little hungry (resisting the nuts). To me, it sounds like you have a healthy approach and a very healthy mental attitude in place to succeed over the long haul. A bit of ice cream now and then isn't going to hurt, if you have an occasion where you really feel like ice cream.

For me the nuts are a big deal. I would buy a huge container of nuts and then pretty much eat them continuously until they were all gone. It's actually amazing that I don't have that problem now I am logging.
I do want to change something. I am thinking of shifting away from roasted and salted nuts to raw and unsalted. I might not like them but I will give it a try. I do eat some raw now like pecans. I use pecans to hit my fat macro when I am behind but don't have enough protein headroom for peanuts! The nuts are now going into the ballast which is my after 9pm fill up my macros nuts + meats etc time. Best bit of the day. I often fill up ballast early in the day with items I want to eat and then subtract from them as I eat other stuff. This way I avoid not being able to hit my macros at the end of the day.



Thank you very much for your input. I will work on more fruit and veg variability.

Costco has the single serving Kirkland mixed nuts. It's great, because I grab a bag on the way out the door and munch when the urge strikes.

Rusty740

It sounds like you've got the weight loss thing handled. The adjustments are only necessary when you need to change something. Either your weight loss has stopped, or you're losing gym progress or something.

Protein: While you are losing weight, protein should be higher than when gaining weight. This is for two reasons, high protein helps you keep your muscle, and protein is helpful to keep you satiated. Typically, protein for weight loss is a bit less than 1 g/lb bodyweight. Any more than this is not doing much, less is ok, but not too much less. 0.8 g/lb is a nice number. So while you might not notice, you could be losing muscle faster than you want. I'd consider bumping up your protein a bit to maybe 175 g or so at the expense of a few grams of fat and more carbs.

Reducing the carbs like this will reduce your performance in the gym, but not to worry, you don't need to hit PRs while you are losing weight. You only need to keep your lifting from suffering too much.

The longer your weight loss goes, the more muscle % you will lose. I think it starts to get noticeable around 4-8 months or so, but that's a ball park. Considering this, some people advise losing weight at 10 lb increments. Lose 10 lbs, then maintain for a few weeks or a month, then lose 10 more. There's some evidence, I think it was Brad Scheonfeld, of the body having 'set points' where it gets comfortable. I think this is due to the time delay it takes for some hormones to adjust to the new weight. I didn't know about this when I lost weight for about 15 months and while I don't know if it would have helped I might have tried it out. Lifting weights and adequate protein is still more important though I would say.

Since your loss is going well, you'll need to think about what you want to do when you hit your goal. You're going to need another goal (most of us do anyway). Maybe maintaining is what you want, that's cool, you'll need to think of a plan to achieve that so that when you do make your first goal, you aren't just lost wondering what to do.

Six pack??

I share my diary (although I'm in a bulk) you're welcome to add me or just check out the kinds of things I'm eating. Just don't look at this past weekend, or last weekend (summer trips ) I ate it all.

rmgnow

Sounds like you're on a good track.
Actually a fast track

When you get down more in weight the lbs per week will probably slow down a bit too.
So it depends on how low you want to go.

I'm at just about .5 lbs per week, so you have that to look forward to

inertiastrength

I wouldn't change anything you seem to have a good attitude and understanding of how weight loss works. Just need time

neillc57

stanmann571 wrote: »

Costco has the single serving Kirkland mixed nuts. It's great, because I grab a bag on the way out the door and munch when the urge strikes.

Eating in the car was a big problem for me. I would buy stuff to eat later and have eaten it all before I got home. The only thing I eat in the car is sugar free gum now. It's 5cals per stick and I will replace this with some lower calorie equivalent if I can now I am nearing the end of the huge box I purchased from costco. I want to just be able to eat it and ignore the .5 cal or what ever zero really is. Sort of like eat a stick on every trip.
To eat single serving nuts I would still need to weigh it and I prefer to pick the nuts. It's a good idea though and I will look out for them next time I am there. I need some emergency options. This hasn't happened to me but if I am off somewhere for family and I really get hungry I want something I can just eat (protein bar, nuts etc). With the logging I seem impervious to very long runs without food. So my kids, wife etc can all eat out and I eat when I get home 3 hours late without problems. Me not eating out is causing some but not much friction. I want more progress before I just log a highly inaccurate dinner at a restaurant. I need a scale in the car I just decided,

neillc57

Rusty740 wrote: »

It sounds like you've got the weight loss thing handled. The adjustments are only necessary when you need to change something. Either your weight loss has stopped, or you're losing gym progress or something.

The reason I made the first post was that I was a little scared that I might be starting to shift into a phase where I start being hungry all the time. I had assumed (maybe wrongly) that eventually it's going to get much tougher. So far it's been kind of trivial. My wife might eat chocolate and I don't care. I can eat some nuts later. Or my kids want to go to the outback and I just say 'go without me'. I never realized the power of logging it and eating whatever the hell I want so long as it fits in the budget and I hit my macros.

Rusty740 wrote: »

Protein: While you are losing weight, protein should be higher than when gaining weight. This is for two reasons, high protein helps you keep your muscle, and protein is helpful to keep you satiated. Typically, protein for weight loss is a bit less than 1 g/lb bodyweight. Any more than this is not doing much, less is ok, but not too much less. 0.8 g/lb is a nice number. So while you might not notice, you could be losing muscle faster than you want. I'd consider bumping up your protein a bit to maybe 175 g or so at the expense of a few grams of fat and more carbs.

My original calculation was based on 0.8g/lbs or lean body weight. I guessed at 40%+ body fat. This gave me a protein amount of 130g (rounded up a bit). I did 0.4g fat/lbs giving me 65g. After a few weeks on that I was dying in the gym. Lost strength, strange pains (just fetching plates off the stands would hurt my wrists) but I felt great. I dreaded the gym but I was swimming half a mile a day and that was incredible. After increasing the protein + fat to the levels I mentioned I had to eat more at night and after a few weeks my strength seems to be coming back and the weird pains have subsided. I did dumbbell benchpress at 85lbs each the other day and forgot to use the wrist wraps. I didn't realize till after and my wrists were great. I was doing 90 prior to the diet and to be honest I think I can get back there again. I had dropped as low as 80 when my protein was too low.

Rusty740 wrote: »

Reducing the carbs like this will reduce your performance in the gym, but not to worry, you don't need to hit PRs while you are losing weight. You only need to keep your lifting from suffering too much.

I am glycogen depleted. I lost 7 pounds in the first few days (gym 5 days a week, swim a mile each day). I am in ketosis for much of the day I think. At least if I check it I am. Just checked and I am in the small range for ketones. I already had to change my workout to break them up more. I often can't manage three body parts so move some to either other days or later on in the day. I am 52 and people report they have to do this because of age anyway.

Rusty740 wrote: »

The longer your weight loss goes, the more muscle % you will lose. I think it starts to get noticeable around 4-8 months or so, but that's a ball park. Considering this, some people advise losing weight at 10 lb increments. Lose 10 lbs, then maintain for a few weeks or a month, then lose 10 more. There's some evidence, I think it was Brad Scheonfeld, of the body having 'set points' where it gets comfortable. I think this is due to the time delay it takes for some hormones to adjust to the new weight. I didn't know about this when I lost weight for about 15 months and while I don't know if it would have helped I might have tried it out. Lifting weights and adequate protein is still more important though I would say.

Since I still feel and look really fat so I want to keep going. My waist has been like 52". When I started it was 49". I am down to 45" which is still huge (44" jeans are a little lose though). I will look into this though. Thanks for that.

Rusty740 wrote: »

Since your loss is going well, you'll need to think about what you want to do when you hit your goal. You're going to need another goal (most of us do anyway). Maybe maintaining is what you want, that's cool, you'll need to think of a plan to achieve that so that when you do make your first goal, you aren't just lost wondering what to do.

I didn't put much effort into picking a goal. Literally I found out about MFP and decided to do it that day. I didn't really think it would work. Nothing worked before for anything beyond a few days to a week. So I set my target weight to 200lbs because that was the weight I was 20 years ago when I came to America (I am from the UK). I was pretty strong then and I am weaker now. I was still pretty fat though even then I think. I think that weights too conservative now but when I put it in I was like 'yep right, no chance of that'. Now I am thinking sub 200 but not sure what. I have always had very large moobs. I was really fat as a kid. So maybe go till they are diminished. Then I will increase the cals to gain 1lb per month and train like mad.

Rusty740 wrote: »

Six pack??

I share my diary (although I'm in a bulk) you're welcome to add me or just check out the kinds of things I'm eating. Just don't look at this past weekend, or last weekend (summer trips ) I ate it all.

Thanks for that. I will check it out.[/quote]

Realistically I think I can shoot for a lose skin skirt :-). Thanks I will check it out.

neillc57

rmgnow wrote: »

Sounds like you're on a good track.
Actually a fast track

When you get down more in weight the lbs per week will probably slow down a bit too.
So it depends on how low you want to go.

I'm at just about .5 lbs per week, so you have that to look forward to

So I looked into this. It turns out your muscles and body get more efficient but it's a trivial amount for most people. You weigh less and so you take less energy to move about but experiments where they put back that weight don't make that much difference. They think it's all about NEAT. A subconscious malaise were you avoid doing stuff and the effect is huge. You park closer to the grocery store entrance, you sit, lie or sleep more etc. So now if I take my kids swimming I tell them we are parking in 'Afghanistan' and we walk from the farthest end of the parking lot to the pool. I drop my kids off an activity and I am walking (and maybe later running) round the block.

I fully expect for stuff to slow down though. Thanks!

WickAndArtoo

You will learn to like the unsalted nuts the longer you eat them. My favorite are raw unsalted almonds, they are SO good. I actually prefer them raw and unsalted now, I love the texture and the way I can nibble at them slowly and enjoy it.

Nice work on your progress, and like others have mentioned, weight loss will slow as you lose more.

BarneyRubbleMD

WickAndArtoo wrote: »

You will learn to like the unsalted nuts the longer you eat them. My favorite are raw unsalted almonds, they are SO good. I actually prefer them raw and unsalted now, I love the texture and the way I can nibble at them slowly and enjoy it.

Nice work on your progress, and like others have mentioned, weight loss will slow as you lose more.

Same here! I use to eat way to many nuts but always the salted kind. Now I eat only unsalted nuts and actually prefer them and really like how the flavors of the various nuts are more noticeable with the unsalted nuts and as a bonus, I eat less of them too.

Rusty740

Rusty740 wrote: »

Reducing the carbs like this will reduce your performance in the gym, but not to worry, you don't need to hit PRs while you are losing weight. You only need to keep your lifting from suffering too much.

I am glycogen depleted. I lost 7 pounds in the first few days (gym 5 days a week, swim a mile each day). I am in ketosis for much of the day I think. At least if I check it I am. Just checked and I am in the small range for ketones. I already had to change my workout to break them up more. I often can't manage three body parts so move some to either other days or later on in the day. I am 52 and people report they have to do this because of age anyway.
[/quote]

Looks like your setting yourself up for great success. I'm just curious about the ketones stuff you mentioned here. I assumed that your carbs would be a few hundred per day, which means you wouldn't be keto. How can you check this?

neillc57

Rusty740 wrote: »

Looks like your setting yourself up for great success. I'm just curious about the ketones stuff you mentioned here. I assumed that your carbs would be a few hundred per day, which means you wouldn't be keto. How can you check this?

I tried low carb way before it was a fad in the US a few years ago. You learn that you can buy keto-stix at the drug store that you pee on to detect ketones. You often have to ask for them as they may not be on the shelves. You can also get sticks that test ketones and sugar but that's not needed for me. My doctor always looked disappointed that I didn't come back as diabetic. I think he thought it pretty much a certainty at my weight but of course he didn't know I lifted weights and I think that gives you a level of protection.
So lets look at the last week on carbs:

134, 127, 138, 113, 125, 104, 130

And fiber

44, 48, 48, 44, 47, 43, 44

Low carb people typically net these out. I would love to eat more fiber actually but I am kinda limited in calories. The thinking is early man would have consumed 100g / day.
I haven't studied this in detail but I typically wake up in quite deep ketosis. I eat probably my highest carb meal for breakfast (beans). I do this on purpose to get the resistant starches in my body. When they hit my lower intestine I get the secondary satiety of hunger from the buterate that's released. I am also eating the unmodified potato starch. I am just using it up mind you and will find more food to eat to give me the same thing when it's gone.
I will drop out of ketosis after breakfast but will then swim or go to the gym. The day I tested for you I had just done 4 sets of deadlifts. So that drove me back into ketosis.

The good think about having so many diabetics is there are all kinds of neat things you can buy and nobody bats an eyelid if you are fat and buy them. They just assume you are diabetic. I have glucose test machines etc. You might be able to get ketone detection in blood which would be more immediate than urine.

Rusty740

neillc57 wrote: »

Rusty740 wrote: »

Looks like your setting yourself up for great success. I'm just curious about the ketones stuff you mentioned here. I assumed that your carbs would be a few hundred per day, which means you wouldn't be keto. How can you check this?

I tried low carb way before it was a fad in the US a few years ago. You learn that you can buy keto-stix at the drug store that you pee on to detect ketones. You often have to ask for them as they may not be on the shelves. You can also get sticks that test ketones and sugar but that's not needed for me. My doctor always looked disappointed that I didn't come back as diabetic. I think he thought it pretty much a certainty at my weight but of course he didn't know I lifted weights and I think that gives you a level of protection.
So lets look at the last week on carbs:

134, 127, 138, 113, 125, 104, 130

And fiber

44, 48, 48, 44, 47, 43, 44

Low carb people typically net these out. I would love to eat more fiber actually but I am kinda limited in calories. The thinking is early man would have consumed 100g / day.
I haven't studied this in detail but I typically wake up in quite deep ketosis. I eat probably my highest carb meal for breakfast (beans). I do this on purpose to get the resistant starches in my body. When they hit my lower intestine I get the secondary satiety of hunger from the buterate that's released. I am also eating the unmodified potato starch. I am just using it up mind you and will find more food to eat to give me the same thing when it's gone.
I will drop out of ketosis after breakfast but will then swim or go to the gym. The day I tested for you I had just done 4 sets of deadlifts. So that drove me back into ketosis.

The good think about having so many diabetics is there are all kinds of neat things you can buy and nobody bats an eyelid if you are fat and buy them. They just assume you are diabetic. I have glucose test machines etc. You might be able to get ketone detection in blood which would be more immediate than urine.

That's really interesting. I'm just thinking that the body uses a range or processes to produce energy and I imagine it produces ketones regularly for everyone as soon as the liver is done with the stored glycogen. (I think) I'm not sure producing ketones would mean someone was 'in' ketosis, I dunno, probably splitting hairs about something I don't know much about.

In any case, I can attest to the high protein, lowerish carb macro split working for my fat loss. I think it mostly had to do with the protein being high than the carbs being low. Anyhow, great job.

neillc57

Rusty740 wrote: »

That's really interesting. I'm just thinking that the body uses a range or processes to produce energy and I imagine it produces ketones regularly for everyone as soon as the liver is done with the stored glycogen. (I think) I'm not sure producing ketones would mean someone was 'in' ketosis, I dunno, probably splitting hairs about something I don't know much about.

In any case, I can attest to the high protein, lowerish carb macro split working for my fat loss. I think it mostly had to do with the protein being high than the carbs being low. Anyhow, great job.

Read a little of this:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2129159/

It's my understanding that availability of carbs turns off the production of ketones very quickly. The ketones are a way of sparing glucose for the few organs that can't use anything else. You're brain which is like a 60w light bulb can burn both glucose and ketones (both small enough to get past the blood brain barrier). So by switching the brain over you get massive carb savings. I got the headaches for the first week of the diet and that's a sure sign of a shift of the brain to ketones. After the switch things are great because it turns out your brain actually likes ketones better than glucose. Ketosis isn't a goal of mine mind you but I find it very interesting.