What the health?

Strives4Progress
Strives4Progress Posts: 78 Member
edited November 20 in Food and Nutrition
Has anyone watched the Netflix "documentary", What the health? Any opinions on what they are advising?

I've seen quite a few different health/food docs and they all seem to contradict each other and induce scare tactics. It's hard to know what's good or bad for us anymore.
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Replies

  • Strives4Progress
    Strives4Progress Posts: 78 Member
    Ok. Good to know. Ty :smile:
  • OliveGirl128
    OliveGirl128 Posts: 801 Member
    There's been numerous threads about this 'documentary' already, (you can find them with the search option on top), but yeah-there's been quite a backlash from many vegans over this.

  • Old_Cat_Lady
    Old_Cat_Lady Posts: 1,193 Member
    edited July 2017
    Animal rights activists making up stories that meat causes cancer, osteoporosis, arthritis, etc, etc.
    Funny they don't just say eating a piece of meat will kill you on the spot.
    They take data and screw around with it.
  • Strives4Progress
    Strives4Progress Posts: 78 Member
    OliveGirl128 wrote: »
    There's been numerous threads about this 'documentary' already, (you can find them with the search option on top), but yeah-there's been quite a backlash from many vegans over this.

    Sorry. I did try searching the forums first but nothing came up.
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  • Old_Cat_Lady
    Old_Cat_Lady Posts: 1,193 Member
    edited July 2017
    Here is a review from a site: (they skew data - royally)
    https://www.vox.com/science-and-health/2017/7/25/16018658/what-the-health-documentary-review-vegan-diet
    They will stop at nothing until every single animal is "saved".

    Decades ago, all they could do is throw a bucket of paint at fur coats. Now, they have the internet.
  • Wednesday_Mouse
    Wednesday_Mouse Posts: 5 Member
    Yeah, even as a vegan I can't reccomend this documentary. It's awful. That's not to say there aren't huge benefits to a plant-based or vegan diet, but I really really wouldn't rely on this as a source of information.
  • OliveGirl128
    OliveGirl128 Posts: 801 Member
    Strives4Progress wrote: »
    OliveGirl128 wrote: »
    There's been numerous threads about this 'documentary' already, (you can find them with the search option on top), but yeah-there's been quite a backlash from many vegans over this.

    Sorry. I did try searching the forums first but nothing came up.

    Weird, when I tried searching just now nothing came up either? Think the search option is being glitchy right now.

    I just did a quick manual search because this topic has been floating around a lot lately, and here's the most recent thread about it

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10578059/netflix-what-the-health#latest

  • goldthistime
    goldthistime Posts: 3,213 Member
    edited July 2017
    In support of the view that veganism hasn't been proven to be healthier than omnivorism (not sure if that's a word), I found this article with reference to a specific study and other existing studies:

    https://www.google.ca/amp/nationalpost.com/news/canada/vegetarians-study-lower-risk-death/wcm/ffea78b6-40cd-4de2-a0e5-920e362f5d25/amp

    It's titled: "Sorry, vegetarians. A new study says eating green won't lower your risk of early death"

    And contained this statement "After adjusting for other factors, such as age, smoking and alcohol consumption, and a history of ever being diagnosed with high blood pressure or conditions like Type 2 diabetes, heart disease and stroke the researchers found no evidence that any of the variations of vegetarian diets had a protective effect on early death."
  • Hypsibius
    Hypsibius Posts: 207 Member
    Strives4Progress wrote: »
    Has anyone watched the Netflix "documentary", What the health? Any opinions on what they are advising?

    I've seen quite a few different health/food docs and they all seem to contradict each other and induce scare tactics. It's hard to know what's good or bad for us anymore.

    I watched it. If I recall (and I'm not splicing together food documentaries) there's some useful information in there about the unethical treatment of animals, how the industry bullies farmers, and just how poorly the chickens are treated.

    It jumps the shark when it starts telling people that white meat chicken is as dangerous as smoking (it's not). In fact, those genetically-infused big-breasted chickens are pretty good for you.

    Legitimate questions here, but telling outright lies isn't the way to get ask them.
  • OliveGirl128
    OliveGirl128 Posts: 801 Member
    goldthistime wrote: »
    In support of the view that veganism hasn't been proven to be healthier than omnivorism (not sure if that's a word), I found this article with reference to a specific study and other existing studies:

    https://www.google.ca/amp/nationalpost.com/news/canada/vegetarians-study-lower-risk-death/wcm/ffea78b6-40cd-4de2-a0e5-920e362f5d25/amp

    It's titled: "Sorry, vegetarians. A new study says eating green won't lower your risk of early death"

    And contained this statement "After adjusting for other factors, such as age, smoking and alcohol consumption, and a history of ever being diagnosed with high blood pressure or conditions like Type 2 diabetes, heart disease and stroke the researchers found no evidence that any of the variations of vegetarian diets had a protective effect on early death."

    A bit connected-if you look at the Blue Zones, there's only one vegetarian group that qualifies, and of that group there's a sub-group within that community that includes fish into their diets and they have even better longevity of life outcomes. The common thread between the different zone groups is the focus on plant based foods, but all, except for the one vegetarian group, still include fish and other meat in small amounts, as well as other animal products like goat's milk, cheese made from sheep milk etc.

    http://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/04/11/398325030/eating-to-break-100-longevity-diet-tips-from-the-blue-zones
  • OliveGirl128
    OliveGirl128 Posts: 801 Member
    edited July 2017
    .
  • Jillj32
    Jillj32 Posts: 145 Member
    Not good
  • goldthistime
    goldthistime Posts: 3,213 Member
    New study out talking specificially about plant based diets, saying that people can eat an unhealthy plant based diet or a healthy one. Healthy plant based diets do result in a decreased risk of CHD, but unhealthy plant based diets have an increased risk.

    Healthful was defined as containing whole grains, fruits/vegetables, nuts/legumes, oils, tea/coffee. Unhealthful was defined as containing juices/sweetened beverages, refined grains, potatoes/fries, sweets.

    "Healthful and Unhealthful Plant-Based Diets and the Risk of Coronary Heart Disease in U.S. Adults", in Journal of American College of Cardiology, July 2017

    http://www.onlinejacc.org/content/70/4/411?download=true&sso=1&sso_redirect_count=4&access_token=
  • cwolfman13
    cwolfman13 Posts: 41,865 Member
    Strives4Progress wrote: »
    Has anyone watched the Netflix "documentary", What the health? Any opinions on what they are advising?

    I've seen quite a few different health/food docs and they all seem to contradict each other and induce scare tactics. It's hard to know what's good or bad for us anymore.

    This is because documentaries of any kind are biased towards their agenda...they're actually really crappy sources of information regardless of the topic. They can be interesting, but you have to take them with a huge grain of salt and seek out alternative points of view.
  • estherdragonbat
    estherdragonbat Posts: 5,283 Member
    edited July 2017
    It's behind a paywall. I'd be a bit curious as to how the study would consider someone who eats a bit of everything. Personally, I eat a mix of whole and refined grains, plenty of fruits, veggies, legumes, and oils, occasional nuts, seldom tea, never coffee. I've been known to cook with orange or apple juice, but seldom drink it. I don't have potatoes as often as I do rice, but I have them. And what's the context/dosage on sweets? Are we talking about a couple of hundred calories set aside for dessert, or that mythical strawman about subsisting on pop-tarts, fries, ice cream, and Twinkies?

    I'm seriously not snarking you. I'd just like some clarity on the parameters.
  • janejellyroll
    janejellyroll Posts: 25,763 Member
    estherdragonbat wrote: »
    It's behind a paywall. I'd be a bit curious as to how the study would consider someone who eats a bit of everything. Personally, I eat a mix of whole and refined grains, plenty of fruits, veggies, legumes, and oils, occasional nuts, seldom tea, never coffee. I've been known to cook with orange or apple juice, but seldom drink it. I don't have potatoes as often as I do rice, but I have them. And what's the context/dosage on sweets? Are we talking about a couple of hundred calories set aside for dessert, or that mythical strawman about subsisting on pop-tarts, fries, and Twinkies?

    I'm seriously not snarking you. I'd just like some clarity on the parameters.

    Yeah, my diet contains both beans and potatoes, coffee and refined grains. There's lots of vegetables, but I will also sometimes have chocolate.
  • lemurcat12
    lemurcat12 Posts: 30,886 Member
    estherdragonbat wrote: »
    It's behind a paywall. I'd be a bit curious as to how the study would consider someone who eats a bit of everything. Personally, I eat a mix of whole and refined grains, plenty of fruits, veggies, legumes, and oils, occasional nuts, seldom tea, never coffee. I've been known to cook with orange or apple juice, but seldom drink it. I don't have potatoes as often as I do rice, but I have them. And what's the context/dosage on sweets? Are we talking about a couple of hundred calories set aside for dessert, or that mythical strawman about subsisting on pop-tarts, fries, ice cream, and Twinkies?

    I'm seriously not snarking you. I'd just like some clarity on the parameters.

    Pretty good piece about a study comparing different diets (basically they can all be healthy and unhealthy depending on how done): https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2014/03/science-compared-every-diet-and-the-winner-is-real-food/284595/

    The study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24641555 (abstract, I used to be able to find a full copy, didn't spend a lot of effort but someone else might be able to).

    And this came up by accident, but is interesting: http://www.business.pitt.edu/katz/katz/faculty/lamberton/vice-bundles.php
  • goldthistime
    goldthistime Posts: 3,213 Member
    estherdragonbat wrote: »
    It's behind a paywall. I'd be a bit curious as to how the study would consider someone who eats a bit of everything. Personally, I eat a mix of whole and refined grains, plenty of fruits, veggies, legumes, and oils, occasional nuts, seldom tea, never coffee. I've been known to cook with orange or apple juice, but seldom drink it. I don't have potatoes as often as I do rice, but I have them. And what's the context/dosage on sweets? Are we talking about a couple of hundred calories set aside for dessert, or that mythical strawman about subsisting on pop-tarts, fries, ice cream, and Twinkies?

    I'm seriously not snarking you. I'd just like some clarity on the parameters.

    Under "Results", they say that they are comparing "extreme deciles". The worst 10% could possibly be subsisting on pop-tarts, fries, ice cream and Twinkies.

  • goldthistime
    goldthistime Posts: 3,213 Member
    Also found this write up on Satija et al's study...

    https://www.medpagetoday.com/cardiology/prevention/66674

    Certain Plant-Based Diets Linked to Lower CHD Risk

    ""Our current analysis extends the potentially protective association with healthful plant-based diet index to CHD. Specifically, greater adherence would lead to diets high in dietary fiber, antioxidants, unsaturated fat, and micronutrient content, and low in saturated fat and heme iron content, all of which could aid in weight loss/maintenance, enhance glycemic control and insulin regulation, improve lipid profile, reduce blood pressure, improve vascular health, decrease inflammation, and foster more favorable diet-gut microbiome interactions thereby lowering CHD risk," stated Satija's team.
    They noted that medical and health professionals should guide patients to "increase intake of healthy plant foods and reduce intake of animal foods and less healthy plant foods such as SSB for CHD prevention."
    Writing in an accompanying editorial, Kim Allan Williams, MD, MACC, chair of the division of cardiology at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago, commented that the findings add to the growing body of evidence that a plant-based diet reduces heart disease risk. He wrote that while not all plant-based foods are healthy, whole grains, unsaturated fats, and an abundance of fruits and vegetables "deserve more emphasis in dietary recommendations."
    Satija and colleagues used a baseline sample of 73,710 women from the Nurses' Health Study, 92,320 women from the Nurses' Health Study 2, and 43,259 men from the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study. Exclusion criteria included having coronary heart disease at baseline, as well as incidence of cancer, stroke, and coronary artery surgery.
    The researchers created food intake surveys to quantify dietary patterns into three graded plant-based diet indices -- overall, healthful, and unhealthful -- and analyzed how gradual reductions in animal protein consumption plus increases in plant food consumption influenced cardiovascular health.
    All participants responded to a follow-up questionnaire on lifestyle, health behaviors, and medical history every 2 years for more than two decades.
    Satija and colleagues found that people with higher scores on the plant-based diet index and healthful plant-based diet index were older, more active, leaner, and less likely to smoke than those with lower scores. Conversely, high consumers of unhealthful plant-based diet index were younger, less active, and more likely to smoke.
    The proportion of people with a history of diabetes decreased with increasing deciles of plant-based diet index and unhealthful plant-based diet index, but increased with higher healthful plant-based diet index intake, they added.


    When looking at all three food categories, the researchers found an inverse association for healthy plant foods and positive associations for animal foods and less healthy plant foods, with the results largely unchanged after red meat adjustment:
    Overall: pooled HR 0.93; 95% CI 0.84-1.03; P=0.01 for trend
    Healthful: 0.76; 95% CI 0.68-0.84; P<0.001
    Unhealthful: 1.32; 95% CI 1.19-1.46; P<0.001

    Additionally, the findings changed in expected directions with adjustment for sugar-sweetened beverages:
    Overall: pooled HR 0.90; 95% CI 0.81-0.99; P=0.003 for trend
    Healthful: 0.79; 95% CI 0.71-0.88; P<0.001
    Unhealthful: 1.22; 95% CI 1.10-1.36; P=0.005

    Similar results were found after modifying the healthful plant-based diet index to score fish intake positively (HR 0.74; 95% CI 0.67-0.81; P<0.001).
    Satija's team concluded that future research should replicate these findings in other racial/ethnic, occupational, and socioeconomic groups. Additionally, they called for further exploration of biological mechanisms involved in the potentially cardioprotective effects of healthful plant-based diet index in order to create personalized clinical interventions and prevention therapies for CHD.
    Williams agreed, but noted that a healthy plant-based diet presents both a challenge and an opportunity for cardiology: "Until recently, cardiologists have not delved deeply into nutrition, treating CVD's downstream effects rather than obliterating its roots, leaving primary and secondary prevention opportunities on the table. It is time that we educate ourselves on dietary patterns, risk, and outcomes, and focus more on 'turning off the faucet' instead of 'mopping up the floor.'"
    Limitations included the observational nature of the study, as well as the potential for measurement error in diet assessment."
  • estherdragonbat
    estherdragonbat Posts: 5,283 Member
    goldthistime wrote: »
    estherdragonbat wrote: »
    It's behind a paywall. I'd be a bit curious as to how the study would consider someone who eats a bit of everything. Personally, I eat a mix of whole and refined grains, plenty of fruits, veggies, legumes, and oils, occasional nuts, seldom tea, never coffee. I've been known to cook with orange or apple juice, but seldom drink it. I don't have potatoes as often as I do rice, but I have them. And what's the context/dosage on sweets? Are we talking about a couple of hundred calories set aside for dessert, or that mythical strawman about subsisting on pop-tarts, fries, ice cream, and Twinkies?

    I'm seriously not snarking you. I'd just like some clarity on the parameters.

    Under "Results", they say that they are comparing "extreme deciles". The worst 10% could possibly be subsisting on pop-tarts, fries, ice cream and Twinkies.

    Understood!
  • estherdragonbat
    estherdragonbat Posts: 5,283 Member
    goldthistime wrote: »
    Also found this write up on Satija et al's study...

    https://www.medpagetoday.com/cardiology/prevention/66674

    Certain Plant-Based Diets Linked to Lower CHD Risk

    ""Our current analysis extends the potentially protective association with healthful plant-based diet index to CHD. Specifically, greater adherence would lead to diets high in dietary fiber, antioxidants, unsaturated fat, and micronutrient content, and low in saturated fat and heme iron content, all of which could aid in weight loss/maintenance, enhance glycemic control and insulin regulation, improve lipid profile, reduce blood pressure, improve vascular health, decrease inflammation, and foster more favorable diet-gut microbiome interactions thereby lowering CHD risk," stated Satija's team.
    They noted that medical and health professionals should guide patients to "increase intake of healthy plant foods and reduce intake of animal foods and less healthy plant foods such as SSB for CHD prevention."
    Writing in an accompanying editorial, Kim Allan Williams, MD, MACC, chair of the division of cardiology at Rush University Medical Center in Chicago, commented that the findings add to the growing body of evidence that a plant-based diet reduces heart disease risk. He wrote that while not all plant-based foods are healthy, whole grains, unsaturated fats, and an abundance of fruits and vegetables "deserve more emphasis in dietary recommendations."
    Satija and colleagues used a baseline sample of 73,710 women from the Nurses' Health Study, 92,320 women from the Nurses' Health Study 2, and 43,259 men from the Health Professionals Follow-Up Study. Exclusion criteria included having coronary heart disease at baseline, as well as incidence of cancer, stroke, and coronary artery surgery.
    The researchers created food intake surveys to quantify dietary patterns into three graded plant-based diet indices -- overall, healthful, and unhealthful -- and analyzed how gradual reductions in animal protein consumption plus increases in plant food consumption influenced cardiovascular health.
    All participants responded to a follow-up questionnaire on lifestyle, health behaviors, and medical history every 2 years for more than two decades.
    Satija and colleagues found that people with higher scores on the plant-based diet index and healthful plant-based diet index were older, more active, leaner, and less likely to smoke than those with lower scores. Conversely, high consumers of unhealthful plant-based diet index were younger, less active, and more likely to smoke.
    The proportion of people with a history of diabetes decreased with increasing deciles of plant-based diet index and unhealthful plant-based diet index, but increased with higher healthful plant-based diet index intake, they added.


    When looking at all three food categories, the researchers found an inverse association for healthy plant foods and positive associations for animal foods and less healthy plant foods, with the results largely unchanged after red meat adjustment:
    Overall: pooled HR 0.93; 95% CI 0.84-1.03; P=0.01 for trend
    Healthful: 0.76; 95% CI 0.68-0.84; P<0.001
    Unhealthful: 1.32; 95% CI 1.19-1.46; P<0.001

    Additionally, the findings changed in expected directions with adjustment for sugar-sweetened beverages:
    Overall: pooled HR 0.90; 95% CI 0.81-0.99; P=0.003 for trend
    Healthful: 0.79; 95% CI 0.71-0.88; P<0.001
    Unhealthful: 1.22; 95% CI 1.10-1.36; P=0.005

    Similar results were found after modifying the healthful plant-based diet index to score fish intake positively (HR 0.74; 95% CI 0.67-0.81; P<0.001).
    Satija's team concluded that future research should replicate these findings in other racial/ethnic, occupational, and socioeconomic groups. Additionally, they called for further exploration of biological mechanisms involved in the potentially cardioprotective effects of healthful plant-based diet index in order to create personalized clinical interventions and prevention therapies for CHD.
    Williams agreed, but noted that a healthy plant-based diet presents both a challenge and an opportunity for cardiology: "Until recently, cardiologists have not delved deeply into nutrition, treating CVD's downstream effects rather than obliterating its roots, leaving primary and secondary prevention opportunities on the table. It is time that we educate ourselves on dietary patterns, risk, and outcomes, and focus more on 'turning off the faucet' instead of 'mopping up the floor.'"
    Limitations included the observational nature of the study, as well as the potential for measurement error in diet assessment."

    That's a bit more helpful. Personally, I guess, like many of us, I could improve a few things, but overall, I'm not doing too badly.
  • Windrunner666
    Windrunner666 Posts: 91 Member
    edited July 2017
    Strives4Progress wrote: »
    Has anyone watched the Netflix "documentary", What the health? Any opinions on what they are advising?

    I've seen quite a few different health/food docs and they all seem to contradict each other and induce scare tactics. It's hard to know what's good or bad for us anymore.

    It's mostly based on pseudoscience and woo, trying to get you to believe how everyone is conspiring agsinst vegans...etc. The big bad meat industry.. They had a potential to do it way better, but they turned to already paranoid audience that hates modern science and spews this bs.
    p.s. don't get me wrong, I am aspiring vegan but this 'documentary' just makes us look so bad.
  • Old_Cat_Lady
    Old_Cat_Lady Posts: 1,193 Member
    edited July 2017
    @windrunner
    No, it does not make you look bad. I'm almost vegetarian myself and I admire those who are. It makes the animal rights activists look bad. People are smart, they know the difference.
    This documentary was not about health at all in my opinion, it was just about trying to save the animals and saying anything to get the job done. I have a link up above about just some of the lies, lies, lies. Milk causes osteoporosis is my favorite lie in the movie, topping the one about meat causing cancer.
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