Weight training and eating in a deficit

jelleigh

Silly question here: I know that while losing it is still important to weight train so as to avoid (or slow?) lean muscle loss . I've also read here that to gain muscle you have to eat at least at maintenance or in a surplus. So here's the question: if I'm doing a progressive weight training program (like Stronglifts 5x5) , and each week you are increasing the weight you lift, which presumably means you are getting stronger and thus gaining muscle , does that mean you can't be in a deficit to do the program properly? (Which doesn't sound right?). If you DO do the program in a deficit, then what exactly is happening with the muscle growth ?

Sorry for what is probably a dumb question - just trying to get my head wrapped around this all to figure out how much I should set my calorie goal to.

malibu927

Getting stronger does not mean muscle growth

KelseyRL

I'm curious about this too. In the past, I ate a calorie deficit and did some strength training and I became obviously stronger and my muscles became much more noticeable, even though I lost 10 pounds. I guess I just have a hard time understanding why you can't build muscle in deficit.

try2again

I don't think it's a dumb question at all! I've been around MFP a while, and I'd like to know myself. Hopefully some of the experienced lifters can help us out. Maybe @usmcmp or @SideSteel ... I know there's many others, but I have a mental block on usernames

skymningen

KelseyRL wrote: »

I'm curious about this too. In the past, I ate a calorie deficit and did some strength training and I became obviously stronger and my muscles became much more noticeable, even though I lost 10 pounds. I guess I just have a hard time understanding why you can't build muscle in deficit.

Your muscles are under the fat cells, so if your calorie deficit is not too high and you do train you might be doing something like recomp leaning a little to the "loss" side. You probably managed to keep your muscles and lose fat and this made it possible that the muscle under it got more visible.

livingleanlivingclean

KelseyRL wrote: »

I'm curious about this too. In the past, I ate a calorie deficit and did some strength training and I became obviously stronger and my muscles became much more noticeable, even though I lost 10 pounds. I guess I just have a hard time understanding why you can't build muscle in deficit.

Your muscles become more noticeable as you lose the fat covering them, it's not that they grow and become bigger.

try2again

malibu927 wrote: »

Getting stronger does not mean muscle growth

Now maybe I have the dumb question, but I thought for a muscle to get stronger required the damage/rebuilding process that creates muscle growth. No?

So, when posters come on here talking about wanting to "build muscle", is it possible they're just concerned with getting stronger, not necessarily bigger?

pamfgil

There's also a thing known as newbie gains, so if you're just starting strength training and are sufficiently overweight, and not too large a deficit you may gain some muscle while losing weight, but we are not taking large amounts

heybales

try2again wrote: »

malibu927 wrote: »

Getting stronger does not mean muscle growth

Now maybe I have the dumb question, but I thought for a muscle to get stronger required the damage/rebuilding process that creates muscle growth. No?

So, when posters come on here talking about wanting to "build muscle", is it possible they're just concerned with getting stronger, not necessarily bigger?

You can get stronger for a decent amount of time using existing muscle.

Form improvements - using what you have more effectively.

CNS (Central Nervous System) improvements - using the whole muscle actually, and using it better.

Once you are totally tapped out - then the body feels the need to grow more.

Just starting lifting and plenty of fat to spare - yes you can increase muscle while eating in smallish deficit once existing is tapped out.

The amount of that gain is minor - not to be written off and is a plus since it won't happen later with less fat to spare - but shouldn't be the purpose for starting lifting at the start or doing it in general.

If you read the forums enough you'll at some point hear someone claim they did an extreme deficit and starting lifting and must have grown muscle because they are lifting heavier.

Many times when they are asked or if they shared the stats, it's something like a certain period of time they went from say a squat of 200 to 230.
And they lost 40 lbs.

I'll let you figure out the problem with that math, and consider the increase that should happen merely from form and CNS.
Did they gain strength and really muscle?

charlieaulert

In a calorie deficit, the idea of weight training to to maintain muscle mass.

The diet will help you lose your fat to reveal your muscles, which sit underneath the layer of body fat. Reduce body fat = any muscles you have will eventually appear.

sijomial

jelleigh wrote: »

Sorry for what is probably a dumb question - just trying to get my head wrapped around this all to figure out how much I should set my calorie goal to.

As @heybales has answered the strength/muscle gain part.....

Your calorie goal determines the rate at which you lose weight but also has an impact on your training performance, recovery and potential for actual growth. The smaller the deficit the less impact on training and general energy levels - it also makes a huge difference over the possibility of gaining some muscle.

Downside of course of having a small deficit is that it's going to take longer to lose the fat and get to goal weight.

Your choice - depends on your personal situation and your priorities.

elliej

Following on from all the science posts above, here's some personal experience. I am currently doing strong lifts 5x5 at a deficit, and I started lifting weights easy for me, so I progressed, now I'm getting further in I'm all the fails. I am simply not eating enough to build muscle in order for me to get stronger at the 5x5 pace; even adding 1.5kg at a time; it is slow. I think I am getting stronger, but what I'm mostly doing is making my muscles work making my body more likely to lose the fat instead of the muscle I am working hard to retain. Having previously dipped into lifting at maintenance around the same weight I can notice the difference in what my body is capable of.

usmcmp

When a person starts lifting they can gain some muscle (not a lot) and they will gain strength. There's not a lot out there about sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy, but both happen when we lift and different types of overloads (sets, reps, total weight, and volume) can emphasise one type over the other. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy needs extra energy to add volume into the cells, but myofibrillar hypertrophy can make the filaments within the muscles stronger (to a point) without additional calories.

Most new lifters eating at a deficit will see some gain in size due to muscle swelling for repairs. They will also feel like the muscles look bigger as the fat is lost and the muscle is revealed. It's sort of like how figure competitors look huge on stage, but in the off-season they only look like normal fit people because they're carrying a little bit more fat.

The importance of lifting in a deficit is simply use it or lose it. Lifting tells your body you need the muscle. Mainting muscle is expensive to your body calorie wise and in a deficit your body is worried you'll starve to death, so it's going to work to reduce the amount of calories you need by chipping away at muscle.

TR0berts

heybales wrote: »

try2again wrote: »

malibu927 wrote: »

Getting stronger does not mean muscle growth

Now maybe I have the dumb question, but I thought for a muscle to get stronger required the damage/rebuilding process that creates muscle growth. No?

So, when posters come on here talking about wanting to "build muscle", is it possible they're just concerned with getting stronger, not necessarily bigger?

...

Many times when they are asked or if they shared the stats, it's something like a certain period of time they went from say a squat of 200 to 230.
And they lost 40 lbs.

I'll let you figure out the problem with that math, and consider the increase that should happen merely from form and CNS.
Did they gain strength and really muscle?

LOL. Very true. In fact, it's the big reason why/how I try to explain why squat and deadlift aren't affected nearly as much as bench when losing weight.

try2again

usmcmp wrote: »

When a person starts lifting they can gain some muscle (not a lot) and they will gain strength. There's not a lot out there about sarcoplasmic and myofibrillar hypertrophy, but both happen when we lift and different types of overloads (sets, reps, total weight, and volume) can emphasise one type over the other. Sarcoplasmic hypertrophy needs extra energy to add volume into the cells, but myofibrillar hypertrophy can make the filaments within the muscles stronger (to a point) without additional calories.

Most new lifters eating at a deficit will see some gain in size due to muscle swelling for repairs. They will also feel like the muscles look bigger as the fat is lost and the muscle is revealed. It's sort of like how figure competitors look huge on stage, but in the off-season they only look like normal fit people because they're carrying a little bit more fat.

The importance of lifting in a deficit is simply use it or lose it. Lifting tells your body you need the muscle. Mainting muscle is expensive to your body calorie wise and in a deficit your body is worried you'll starve to death, so it's going to work to reduce the amount of calories you need by chipping away at muscle.

Thank you- this was a very simple, concise explanation!

jelleigh

Thanks so much for all The insight everyone!
OK so next question (mostly just from curiosity) - if I'm lifting 3 days a week like the program says, can you do a mixture of deficit and small surplus days and still be able to "feed" muscle growth? (Maybe this is totally not how it works but follow me on the math here). Let's say my maintenance is 2200 cal making my weekly TDEE 15400. For four days a week, let's say I eat 1400 (my current goal) and on (or the after? ) my weight training day I eat 2500. 1400 x 4=5400. 2500 x 3= 7500. Total of 13100 or an overall weekly deficit of 2300. Would eating the surplus on or near the days of the workout give my body the but extra to build while still having a weekly deficit? Or does it take, etc way more fuel than that to actually build muscle?
It probably doesnt matter much as my goal is to lose weight and get smaller and I can always focus on actual building later. I'm more just curious as to how much energy (cal) it takes to build muscle. If that's a calculation that exist. Like 1 lb of fat is 3500 cal. How many calories does it take take to build x amount of muscle ? Or maybe it's more of just the protein/other compounds requirement ? (Although if that was the case then I wouldn't imagine "dirty bulk" to be that effective)

usmcmp

It really comes down to overall calorie balance, if at the end of the week you are at a deficit you're not going to be building muscle. It would work if your weekly balance was maintenance. I believe building a pound of muscle takes 1600-2500 calories, but we aren't efficient. Women can build about a pound of muscle per month, so if your monthly surplus was right on the number you'll still not gain only muscle even with perfect lifting plan and appropriate macros.

cdahl383

You can definitely get stronger when lifting weights in a deficit, but that is likely due to your nervous system adapting and getting more efficient at the lifts. At a certain point that will likely taper off though and it will be much harder to increase the weight. If you want to actually add muscle mass you need to be in a slight surplus, you need to lift weights with some intensity, and you need to eat adequate protein and get adequate sleep (7-8hrs).

If you want to lose weight but not lose too much muscle, you want to continue lifting weights, eat adequate protein, get adequate sleep, and try to keep your deficit at 500cal or less. You want to try and still increase the weight on your lifts, but at a minimum try to retain a certain level as you lose weight.

heybales

jelleigh wrote: »

Thanks so much for all The insight everyone!
OK so next question (mostly just from curiosity) - if I'm lifting 3 days a week like the program says, can you do a mixture of deficit and small surplus days and still be able to "feed" muscle growth? (Maybe this is totally not how it works but follow me on the math here). Let's say my maintenance is 2200 cal making my weekly TDEE 15400. For four days a week, let's say I eat 1400 (my current goal) and on (or the after? ) my weight training day I eat 2500. 1400 x 4=5400. 2500 x 3= 7500. Total of 13100 or an overall weekly deficit of 2300. Would eating the surplus on or near the days of the workout give my body the but extra to build while still having a weekly deficit? Or does it take, etc way more fuel than that to actually build muscle?
It probably doesnt matter much as my goal is to lose weight and get smaller and I can always focus on actual building later. I'm more just curious as to how much energy (cal) it takes to build muscle. If that's a calculation that exist. Like 1 lb of fat is 3500 cal. How many calories does it take take to build x amount of muscle ? Or maybe it's more of just the protein/other compounds requirement ? (Although if that was the case then I wouldn't imagine "dirty bulk" to be that effective)

That idea of bulking during the 24-48 hr recovery window and cutting for the 24 hr prior to the workout (math timing problem even there though for many) could provide a small advantage if everything that has a more serious impact is being done dead on correct.

Like sleep, or enough protein in general, ect. If those bigger impact things are not lined up right - the mini bulk/cut's aren't going to do much noticeable for you.

Doesn't hurt to try, and in fact eating more after a good workout should aid recovery - so might like it.

And yes, it takes amino acids and carbs and essential fats to build muscle.
I've only seen studies that had calorie values for building LBM, but since that is muscle AND water and other things, it's not an equation for muscle only requirements. If they had done DEXA scan there would have been something.

Sunna_W

Eat protein to maintain muscle mass; eat healthy fat to lose flabby icky fat; don't eat sugar / carbs (over 100 g) and stay within your allotted calories and presto! you lose weight and fat and maintain muscle.