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When Does 'Harmless' Cross a Line?
snickerscharlie
Posts: 8,578 Member
I've always been a bit fascinated at how unproven diets, supplements and 'cures' make their way into the mainstream consciousness and become fact in people's minds, if for no other reason than it's trendy and a lot of people are doing it. And it seems that many do really, really care about being all 'current' and latch onto whatever the latest derp-du-jour is. My Facebook page is rife with it, and each idea or product - to me at least - seems stupider than the last.
I've wondered if an initial 'success' with something unproven but wildly popular would lead the inventor to ride their wave of possibly dubious popularity to greater heights (or depths, depending on your perspective) by suggesting even more improbable and perhaps potentially dangerous 'cures.'
Case in point:
Dave Asprey, whose claim to fame is being the Bulletproof Coffee Guy, is now promoting something entirely new, and, honestly, I can't imagine anyone being either stupid enough, desperate enough or enamoured enough of him to actually go ahead and do this based on his recommendation. But sadly, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people actually will.
Bulletproof Coffee, although certainly not something I would ever do (I actually prefer to eat my calories than drink them) is, in and of itself, relatively harmless. Yes, the claims of its 'benefits' are rather inflated, but that just heightens the hype and the popularity. To each their own, I say.
However, Asprey's latest recommendation, imo, crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed. He is now advocating for an idea that people should consider injecting their own urine as a potential cure for allergies. Although not the inventor of this 'therapy' he certainly seems to have embraced it.
I'll just drop the link here and let the good people of MFP decide for themselves:
https://blog.bulletproof.com/can-urine-injection-therapy-relieve-your-allergies/
I've wondered if an initial 'success' with something unproven but wildly popular would lead the inventor to ride their wave of possibly dubious popularity to greater heights (or depths, depending on your perspective) by suggesting even more improbable and perhaps potentially dangerous 'cures.'
Case in point:
Dave Asprey, whose claim to fame is being the Bulletproof Coffee Guy, is now promoting something entirely new, and, honestly, I can't imagine anyone being either stupid enough, desperate enough or enamoured enough of him to actually go ahead and do this based on his recommendation. But sadly, I'd be willing to bet that a lot of people actually will.
Bulletproof Coffee, although certainly not something I would ever do (I actually prefer to eat my calories than drink them) is, in and of itself, relatively harmless. Yes, the claims of its 'benefits' are rather inflated, but that just heightens the hype and the popularity. To each their own, I say.
However, Asprey's latest recommendation, imo, crosses a line that shouldn't be crossed. He is now advocating for an idea that people should consider injecting their own urine as a potential cure for allergies. Although not the inventor of this 'therapy' he certainly seems to have embraced it.
I'll just drop the link here and let the good people of MFP decide for themselves:
https://blog.bulletproof.com/can-urine-injection-therapy-relieve-your-allergies/
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Replies
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These kind of things just prove the old P.T. Barnum statement about a sucker being born every minute.12
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The Darwin Award goes to Dave Asprey! Lol5
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'Harmless' definitely crosses a line where one "application" of something can lead to severe harm. Compared to 'fad diets' where you could more or less say that people should be able to recognize they are getting unhappy and unhealthy gradually but all can be repaired by eating better again, something like injecting your own urine can go devastatingly wrong the first time you do it (sepsis?) and in the worst case there is no going back.4
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If you're mainlining your own piss into your veins, you should seriously reevaluate your decision making process.24
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Looked up this Dr. Rashid Buttar person - the apparent brains behind this therapy. Looks like there's lawsuits and plenty of claims of quackery in relation to his other 'treatments' of everything from cancer to autism.
And this from his own site:
"We offer 59 different IV Therapies oriented towards the principles of detoxification and immune modulation including heavy metal chelation, oxidative therapies, nutritional IVs, and many other treatments that detoxify and enhance the immune system. Our treatments are so effective that even the North Carolina Medical Board is trying to suppress the truth."
I would normally post the link when I quote stuff, but anyone interested can google it for themselves. The website is, um, curious.11 -
I mean you can drink your own pee but I don't see how that would do what he is calming the stuff you pee out is stuff you don't need. Sammy Sosa would pee on his hands to toughen them up, people used to tan leather with pee they would collect it house to house.0
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Throughout history people have tried a lot of dumb things to try to cure themselves or look better. Some people believe their cures while others are just out to make money from vulnerable people. There is an interesting medical history podcast called Sawbones that covers a lot of this kind of stuff. Really fun to listen to. There is an episode on urine. http://www.maximumfun.org/sawbones/sawbones-urine
I doubt many people are going to inject themselves with urine to cure allergies. It is probably too gross compared to just taking allergy meds for most people. Telling people to inject things into their body is definitely crossing a line into harmful though.2 -
Throughout history people have tried a lot of dumb things to try to cure themselves or look better. Some people believe their cures while others are just out to make money from vulnerable people. There is an interesting medical history podcast called Sawbones that covers a lot of this kind of stuff. Really fun to listen to. There is an episode on urine. http://www.maximumfun.org/sawbones/sawbones-urine
I doubt many people are going to inject themselves with urine to cure allergies. It is probably too gross compared to just taking allergy meds for most people. Telling people to inject things into their body is definitely crossing a line into harmful though.
Allergy meds merely control the symptoms associated with the allergy. They are not a 'cure.' as this urine method seems to be claiming, and exactly why some people may be drawn to trying it. My bone of contention with the Bulletproof Coffee Guy is that even though he does say to get your doctor to do this, he then goes on to give specific and detailed D-I-Y instructions.
I know that if I approached my doctor and asked her to inject my proffered-in-a-sterile-cup urine, she would likely have me committed as being a danger to myself. Chances are high that most real physicians would decline the request as well. So what's a person to do? Find an 'alternative' "doctor" amenable to this sort of thing (which likely wouldn't be covered by any medical plan) or just follow the directions provided?
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snickerscharlie wrote: »Looked up this Dr. Rashid Buttar person - the apparent brains behind this therapy. Looks like there's lawsuits and plenty of claims of quackery in relation to his other 'treatments' of everything from cancer to autism.
And this from his own site:
"We offer 59 different IV Therapies oriented towards the principles of detoxification and immune modulation including heavy metal chelation, oxidative therapies, nutritional IVs, and many other treatments that detoxify and enhance the immune system. Our treatments are so effective that even the North Carolina Medical Board is trying to suppress the truth."
I would normally post the link when I quote stuff, but anyone interested can google it for themselves. The website is, um, curious.
Well, shucks, if the MEDICAL BOARD doesn't think it's a good practice, I should definitely go do that - immediately *sarcasm*There is an interesting medical history podcast called Sawbones that covers a lot of this kind of stuff. Really fun to listen to. There is an episode on urine. http://www.maximumfun.org/sawbones/sawbones-urine
I keep hearing about Sawbones; I need to check it out! I'm finding that many of my regular podcasts are falling short of the time I'm spending on the treadmill as I increase mileage, lol. I need to find some good 50-ish minute ones.2 -
I mean you can drink your own pee but I don't see how that would do what he is calming the stuff you pee out is stuff you don't need. Sammy Sosa would pee on his hands to toughen them up, people used to tan leather with pee they would collect it house to house.
Not to mention helping to soften wool and sets the dyes.1 -
I'm not sure about this, but isn't it illegal (at least in the US) to possess syringes and needles without a prescription? Isn't he advocating for people to do something that's against the law? It seems to me that would take it out of the "harmless" category right there and into criminal behavior. If he was just promoting a "clinic" where one could get the injection or a prescription I would still call BS and definitely crossing a line (I would have to see some heavy-duty peer-reviewed, conclusive research to even consider changing that opinion), but his "how to" takes it into prosecution territory in my opinion.1
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I don't know how you get syringes without a prescription. I take a medication that needs IM injections, and believe me, it was a struggle, thanks to insurance woes, getting my prescription for just the right needles filled.2
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I'm not sure about this, but isn't it illegal (at least in the US) to possess syringes and needles without a prescription? Isn't he advocating for people to do something that's against the law? It seems to me that would take it out of the "harmless" category right there and into criminal behavior. If he was just promoting a "clinic" where one could get the injection or a prescription I would still call BS and definitely crossing a line (I would have to see some heavy-duty peer-reviewed, conclusive research to even consider changing that opinion), but his "how to" takes it into prosecution territory in my opinion.
I am not sure what the exact regulations are, but it is not illegal to possess SOME. My travel first-aid kit comes with several syringes so I can use one I know is new and clean if ever I need medical attention in a 3rd world country. There might be regulations as to what kind and/or quantity can be obtained but there is not a general "prescription only" regulation.4 -
I'm not sure about this, but isn't it illegal (at least in the US) to possess syringes and needles without a prescription? Isn't he advocating for people to do something that's against the law? It seems to me that would take it out of the "harmless" category right there and into criminal behavior. If he was just promoting a "clinic" where one could get the injection or a prescription I would still call BS and definitely crossing a line (I would have to see some heavy-duty peer-reviewed, conclusive research to even consider changing that opinion), but his "how to" takes it into prosecution territory in my opinion.
I am not sure what the exact regulations are, but it is not illegal to possess SOME. My travel first-aid kit comes with several syringes so I can use one I know is new and clean if ever I need medical attention in a 3rd world country. There might be regulations as to what kind and/or quantity can be obtained but there is not a general "prescription only" regulation.
But how do you get the specific ones he called for, including the filter syringes?
Since the meds I take come in glass ampules, I supposedly should use filter syringes and once did have a pharmacy give them to me. I don't see how they'd be routinely available in a generalized First Aid kit. (FTR, I don't bother with the filter syringes, they're too fussy. The ampules break off very cleanly.)0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm not sure about this, but isn't it illegal (at least in the US) to possess syringes and needles without a prescription? Isn't he advocating for people to do something that's against the law? It seems to me that would take it out of the "harmless" category right there and into criminal behavior. If he was just promoting a "clinic" where one could get the injection or a prescription I would still call BS and definitely crossing a line (I would have to see some heavy-duty peer-reviewed, conclusive research to even consider changing that opinion), but his "how to" takes it into prosecution territory in my opinion.
I am not sure what the exact regulations are, but it is not illegal to possess SOME. My travel first-aid kit comes with several syringes so I can use one I know is new and clean if ever I need medical attention in a 3rd world country. There might be regulations as to what kind and/or quantity can be obtained but there is not a general "prescription only" regulation.
But how do you get the specific ones he called for, including the filter syringes?
Since the meds I take come in glass ampules, I supposedly should use filter syringes and once did have a pharmacy give them to me. I don't see how they'd be routinely available in a generalized First Aid kit. (FTR, I don't bother with the filter syringes, they're too fussy. The ampules break off very cleanly.)
Have no idea. I should ask my brother the RN if he knows more. I will have to stress that it is for information only and that I am NOT contemplating doing any injections myself.0 -
I'm not sure about this, but isn't it illegal (at least in the US) to possess syringes and needles without a prescription? Isn't he advocating for people to do something that's against the law? It seems to me that would take it out of the "harmless" category right there and into criminal behavior. If he was just promoting a "clinic" where one could get the injection or a prescription I would still call BS and definitely crossing a line (I would have to see some heavy-duty peer-reviewed, conclusive research to even consider changing that opinion), but his "how to" takes it into prosecution territory in my opinion.
I am not sure what the exact regulations are, but it is not illegal to possess SOME. My travel first-aid kit comes with several syringes so I can use one I know is new and clean if ever I need medical attention in a 3rd world country. There might be regulations as to what kind and/or quantity can be obtained but there is not a general "prescription only" regulation.
You're right, I just did some googling and small quantities are allowed without script. Further googling brought up the fact that some medications don't fully metabolize in the system before a portion is excreted in the urine and could cause complications or drug interaction issues if the drugs injected with the urine ups the dosage or messes up the timing of meds.
eta: This isn't mentioned in the articLe and I don't think that's something the average person who is doing this on their own is going to be aware of. Extremely irresponsible and line-crossing.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »I'm not sure about this, but isn't it illegal (at least in the US) to possess syringes and needles without a prescription? Isn't he advocating for people to do something that's against the law? It seems to me that would take it out of the "harmless" category right there and into criminal behavior. If he was just promoting a "clinic" where one could get the injection or a prescription I would still call BS and definitely crossing a line (I would have to see some heavy-duty peer-reviewed, conclusive research to even consider changing that opinion), but his "how to" takes it into prosecution territory in my opinion.
I am not sure what the exact regulations are, but it is not illegal to possess SOME. My travel first-aid kit comes with several syringes so I can use one I know is new and clean if ever I need medical attention in a 3rd world country. There might be regulations as to what kind and/or quantity can be obtained but there is not a general "prescription only" regulation.
But how do you get the specific ones he called for, including the filter syringes?
Since the meds I take come in glass ampules, I supposedly should use filter syringes and once did have a pharmacy give them to me. I don't see how they'd be routinely available in a generalized First Aid kit. (FTR, I don't bother with the filter syringes, they're too fussy. The ampules break off very cleanly.)
I know where to get them, but not telling.
As for the OP, this is just disturbing. Although I thoroughly enjoyed the comments at the bottom of the piece.3 -
I wonder how long until injecting urine for allergies turns into "inject urine to lose 20 pounds in one month"! Yay, new OP material
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I'm convinced Asprey started the bullet proof coffee thing as part of a bet that he could start a ridiculous trend and make money off it.
It sounds like he's made another bet with this urine injection thing.2 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »Looked up this Dr. Rashid Buttar person - the apparent brains behind this therapy. Looks like there's lawsuits and plenty of claims of quackery in relation to his other 'treatments' of everything from cancer to autism.
And this from his own site:
"We offer 59 different IV Therapies oriented towards the principles of detoxification and immune modulation including heavy metal chelation, oxidative therapies, nutritional IVs, and many other treatments that detoxify and enhance the immune system. Our treatments are so effective that even the North Carolina Medical Board is trying to suppress the truth."
I would normally post the link when I quote stuff, but anyone interested can google it for themselves. The website is, um, curious.
Aren't medical claims like that illegal AF?1 -
stevencloser wrote: »snickerscharlie wrote: »Looked up this Dr. Rashid Buttar person - the apparent brains behind this therapy. Looks like there's lawsuits and plenty of claims of quackery in relation to his other 'treatments' of everything from cancer to autism.
And this from his own site:
"We offer 59 different IV Therapies oriented towards the principles of detoxification and immune modulation including heavy metal chelation, oxidative therapies, nutritional IVs, and many other treatments that detoxify and enhance the immune system. Our treatments are so effective that even the North Carolina Medical Board is trying to suppress the truth."
I would normally post the link when I quote stuff, but anyone interested can google it for themselves. The website is, um, curious.
Aren't medical claims like that illegal AF?
No idea. If not, they should be, though. 1 -
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Weird.
I think a recipe for coffee is harmless. Injecting urine into a muscle to help allergies is many years away from being accepted. Seems really weird. But I appreciate the others who act a a guinea pig in this. If it actually is effective we'll hear about it again in the future.
I thought the idea of fecal implants/transplant/whatever it is calked was crazy 20 years ago. Now I know a couple of people who have had it done.1 -
I was thinking about this (because it grosses me out so of course I'm dwelling on it, thanks Snickers
), and I noticed he goes into some detail about exactly how and where to inject yourself. He doesn't say what happens if you do it wrong, say accidently get it into a vein (unlikely I know) or subcutaneous tissue or somewhere it's not supposed to go. Or if you use a different type needle because that's what you have laying around from a script. I'm guessing nothing good - but hey, he warned you to get a doctor to do it, right? 2 -
This is so wrong.
The bodies excretory system has chosen to get rid of it and he wants to to inject it back in?
I'll stick with my bodies opinion on it, it has stood me in good stead for many a decade.2 -
Weird.
I think a recipe for coffee is harmless. Injecting urine into a muscle to help allergies is many years away from being accepted. Seems really weird. But I appreciate the others who act a a guinea pig in this. If it actually is effective we'll hear about it again in the future.
I thought the idea of fecal implants/transplant/whatever it is calked was crazy 20 years ago. Now I know a couple of people who have had it done.
Fecal transplants merely take donor feces and put it into the intestine of the patient. Basically no different than what was there initially and not introducing a substance where it doesn't naturally belong anyway.
But I hear you on that even a decade ago, something as beneficial (in very specific circumstances) as a fecal transplant would have been unheard of.
The entire idea, however, that someone would introduce urine into their body somewhere it clearly doesn't belong - and can do so without medical supervision - is just so very wrong. 1 -
snickerscharlie wrote: »Weird.
I think a recipe for coffee is harmless. Injecting urine into a muscle to help allergies is many years away from being accepted. Seems really weird. But I appreciate the others who act a a guinea pig in this. If it actually is effective we'll hear about it again in the future.
I thought the idea of fecal implants/transplant/whatever it is calked was crazy 20 years ago. Now I know a couple of people who have had it done.
Fecal transplants merely take donor feces and put it into the intestine of the patient. Basically no different than what was there initially and not introducing a substance where it doesn't naturally belong anyway.
But I hear you on that even a decade ago, something as beneficial (in very specific circumstances) as a fecal transplant would have been unheard of.
The entire idea, however, that someone would introduce urine into their body somewhere it clearly doesn't belong - and can do so without medical supervision - is just so very wrong.
It does seem pretty weird...0
This discussion has been closed.
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