Plant based diet
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Iamnotasenior wrote: »However, there are a lot of research studies that show that meatless diets do result in things like healthier guts (because they are generally higher in plant fiber), gentler menopause symptoms and even lower levels of stress.
I suspect all those things are associated with OTHER differences, on average, and not being meat free or not. For example, you note "eating more plant fiber," but of course some meat eaters eat more plant fiber than some vegetarians, and it is definitely possible to have a diet that includes meat, eggs, and dairy, and also eat lots of vegetables. Too few people eat adequate vegetables, IMO, and I'd address that by encouraging vegetable eating, not blaming meat.3 -
There is a tv show on the Z Living Network called Big Fat Truth. It's pretty interesting because they put "unhealthy" people on a plant based diet for 30 days and you get to see the transformation.
They have plant based recipes on their website.
https://www.zliving.com/food/recipes
I've never seen the show, but let me guess, they put unhealthy people on a plant based diet that just so happens to also put them in a calorie deficit, and they also have them throw in some exercise, and by the end they end up losing weight and having better health markers across the board? Is that about right?
To sum it up, yes you are right...they end up losing weight and end up with healthy markers across the board. Many of them start with high blood pressure, high LDL cholesterol, pre-diabetic etc, and by 10 days their levels start going down and by 30 days most are within healthy range. The purpose of the show is to transform their unhealthy lifestyle into something they can maintain long term. It's not simply about losing weight...it's about becoming healthy from a nutrition standpoint. If you can tell me how this is a problem or unhealthy I'd love to hear it.
I understand that a plant based diet is not the only way to achieve this, but it is one way that works, so what is the problem?
My only problem is that it's extremely misleading. It's almost completely the weight loss and exercise that is making all their health markers better and they don't even acknowledge that, they give all the credit to the plant based diet. That's like doing a study where you take people who smoke a pack a day, and have them completely stop smoking for 6 months and also read a book for an hour a day and at the end saying that an hour of reading a day increases respiration and makes you healthier. See my point?
Like I said, plant based is not the only way to achieve 'health' but it certainly will work. I'm not sure that eating cico of cheeseburgers/fries paired with exercise will lead to healthy levels (just using that as an extreme example...I realize not everyone just eats one food).
So I do believe there is truth to what your say, but I also think there is merit to the plant based diet for general health...it's certainly not going to hurt anything. So if people believe that plant based will get them to the finish line, I support them fully.
Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Why does it have to be plant based diet or cheeseburgers and fries? There is middle ground, and that's where it's ideal to be. Animal products are not inherently bad, it's just that the vast majority of the population consumes animal products, so when people make comparison studies, they compare subjects who eat a plant based diet(which tend to be people that are conscious about what they're eating) to the general population, which consists mostly of people who don't care at all what they're eating. That's not a fair or intellectually honest comparison to make, and those who make it do it to make a point, not to be transparent. I've never seen a good comparison of plant based dieters to dieters who consume animal products, but also consume adequate fiber and micronutrients as well.2 -
There is a tv show on the Z Living Network called Big Fat Truth. It's pretty interesting because they put "unhealthy" people on a plant based diet for 30 days and you get to see the transformation.
They have plant based recipes on their website.
https://www.zliving.com/food/recipes
I've never seen the show, but let me guess, they put unhealthy people on a plant based diet that just so happens to also put them in a calorie deficit, and they also have them throw in some exercise, and by the end they end up losing weight and having better health markers across the board? Is that about right?
To sum it up, yes you are right...they end up losing weight and end up with healthy markers across the board. Many of them start with high blood pressure, high LDL cholesterol, pre-diabetic etc, and by 10 days their levels start going down and by 30 days most are within healthy range. The purpose of the show is to transform their unhealthy lifestyle into something they can maintain long term. It's not simply about losing weight...it's about becoming healthy from a nutrition standpoint. If you can tell me how this is a problem or unhealthy I'd love to hear it.
I understand that a plant based diet is not the only way to achieve this, but it is one way that works, so what is the problem?
My only problem is that it's extremely misleading. It's almost completely the weight loss and exercise that is making all their health markers better and they don't even acknowledge that, they give all the credit to the plant based diet. That's like doing a study where you take people who smoke a pack a day, and have them completely stop smoking for 6 months and also read a book for an hour a day and at the end saying that an hour of reading a day increases respiration and makes you healthier. See my point?
Like I said, plant based is not the only way to achieve 'health' but it certainly will work. I'm not sure that eating cico of cheeseburgers/fries paired with exercise will lead to healthy levels (just using that as an extreme example...I realize not everyone just eats one food).
So I do believe there is truth to what your say, but I also think there is merit to the plant based diet for general health...it's certainly not going to hurt anything. So if people believe that plant based will get them to the finish line, I support them fully.
Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Why does it have to be plant based diet or cheeseburgers and fries? There is middle ground, and that's where it's ideal to be. Animal products are not inherently bad, it's just that the vast majority of the population consumes animal products, so when people make comparison studies, they compare subjects who eat a plant based diet(which tend to be people that are conscious about what they're eating) to the general population, which consists mostly of people who don't care at all what they're eating. That's not a fair or intellectually honest comparison to make, and those who make it do it to make a point, not to be transparent. I've never seen a good comparison of plant based dieters to dieters who consume animal products, but also consume adequate fiber and micronutrients as well.
The reason I mentioned the extreme is because many people here state that the cico is simply based on eating fewer calories that expended regardless of what it is. For argument sake I'll change my 'cheeseburgers' to the 'typical western diet' in order to leave room for variety.
On the other hand, what is wrong with the 'extreme' of eating strictly plant based? Why is this so bad? Everything I've read said plant based is extremely healthy. By saying plant based is healthy does not mean non-plant based is not healthy. It's simply one way of achieving ones goal. Can it be achieved eating meat? I'm sure it can. "There is more than one way to skin a cat. "2 -
No one was saying it doesn't matter what you eat in general. OP said he/she was transitioning to plant based and asked how many calories and what macros he/she should eat to lose weight. People were explaining that being on a plant-based diet does not make a difference to how many calories you need to lose weight.
A plant-based diet can be healthful, but (as it often just means does not eat animal products and says nothing about what the person does eat), it is not necessarily an "extremely healthy" diet.
Sure, it can be, and as I said upthread I support it. But so much bad, misleading, or just false propaganda lately seems dedicated to the idea that ONLY 100% plant-based is healthy.1 -
There is a tv show on the Z Living Network called Big Fat Truth. It's pretty interesting because they put "unhealthy" people on a plant based diet for 30 days and you get to see the transformation.
They have plant based recipes on their website.
https://www.zliving.com/food/recipes
I've never seen the show, but let me guess, they put unhealthy people on a plant based diet that just so happens to also put them in a calorie deficit, and they also have them throw in some exercise, and by the end they end up losing weight and having better health markers across the board? Is that about right?
To sum it up, yes you are right...they end up losing weight and end up with healthy markers across the board. Many of them start with high blood pressure, high LDL cholesterol, pre-diabetic etc, and by 10 days their levels start going down and by 30 days most are within healthy range. The purpose of the show is to transform their unhealthy lifestyle into something they can maintain long term. It's not simply about losing weight...it's about becoming healthy from a nutrition standpoint. If you can tell me how this is a problem or unhealthy I'd love to hear it.
I understand that a plant based diet is not the only way to achieve this, but it is one way that works, so what is the problem?
My only problem is that it's extremely misleading. It's almost completely the weight loss and exercise that is making all their health markers better and they don't even acknowledge that, they give all the credit to the plant based diet. That's like doing a study where you take people who smoke a pack a day, and have them completely stop smoking for 6 months and also read a book for an hour a day and at the end saying that an hour of reading a day increases respiration and makes you healthier. See my point?
Like I said, plant based is not the only way to achieve 'health' but it certainly will work. I'm not sure that eating cico of cheeseburgers/fries paired with exercise will lead to healthy levels (just using that as an extreme example...I realize not everyone just eats one food).
So I do believe there is truth to what your say, but I also think there is merit to the plant based diet for general health...it's certainly not going to hurt anything. So if people believe that plant based will get them to the finish line, I support them fully.
Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Why does it have to be plant based diet or cheeseburgers and fries? There is middle ground, and that's where it's ideal to be. Animal products are not inherently bad, it's just that the vast majority of the population consumes animal products, so when people make comparison studies, they compare subjects who eat a plant based diet(which tend to be people that are conscious about what they're eating) to the general population, which consists mostly of people who don't care at all what they're eating. That's not a fair or intellectually honest comparison to make, and those who make it do it to make a point, not to be transparent. I've never seen a good comparison of plant based dieters to dieters who consume animal products, but also consume adequate fiber and micronutrients as well.
The reason I mentioned the extreme is because many people here state that the cico is simply based on eating fewer calories that expended regardless of what it is. For argument sake I'll change my 'cheeseburgers' to the 'typical western diet' in order to leave room for variety.
On the other hand, what is wrong with the 'extreme' of eating strictly plant based? Why is this so bad? Everything I've read said plant based is extremely healthy. By saying plant based is healthy does not mean non-plant based is not healthy. It's simply one way of achieving ones goal. Can it be achieved eating meat? I'm sure it can. "There is more than one way to skin a cat. "
As far as CICO goes, it is an undeniable fact that (water weight fluctuations aside) if you consume more calories than you burn you will gain weight. If you consume fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight. That is according to the laws of physics and biology. You cannot outrun that. That is separate from health, but in general, the vast vast vast majority of health problems having to do with nutrition stem from being overweight, not from not eating enough veggies.
To answer your question of "what is wrong with the 'extreme' of eating strictly plant based?
1. Often times not enough protein consumption, and not enough fat consumption with plant based diets.
2. The protein sources you do consume are less complete(fewer essential amino acids), and they tend to be less bioavailable for your body to breakdown and use.
3. You're unnecessarily restricting something out of your diet that is not harmful to you or even bad for you in moderate amounts.
4. Restrictive diets are more prone to disorders that include binge eating and orthorexia nervosa, when you inevitably eat something that does not fall within the confines of your diet.
5 -
There is a tv show on the Z Living Network called Big Fat Truth. It's pretty interesting because they put "unhealthy" people on a plant based diet for 30 days and you get to see the transformation.
They have plant based recipes on their website.
https://www.zliving.com/food/recipes
I've never seen the show, but let me guess, they put unhealthy people on a plant based diet that just so happens to also put them in a calorie deficit, and they also have them throw in some exercise, and by the end they end up losing weight and having better health markers across the board? Is that about right?
To sum it up, yes you are right...they end up losing weight and end up with healthy markers across the board. Many of them start with high blood pressure, high LDL cholesterol, pre-diabetic etc, and by 10 days their levels start going down and by 30 days most are within healthy range. The purpose of the show is to transform their unhealthy lifestyle into something they can maintain long term. It's not simply about losing weight...it's about becoming healthy from a nutrition standpoint. If you can tell me how this is a problem or unhealthy I'd love to hear it.
I understand that a plant based diet is not the only way to achieve this, but it is one way that works, so what is the problem?
My only problem is that it's extremely misleading. It's almost completely the weight loss and exercise that is making all their health markers better and they don't even acknowledge that, they give all the credit to the plant based diet. That's like doing a study where you take people who smoke a pack a day, and have them completely stop smoking for 6 months and also read a book for an hour a day and at the end saying that an hour of reading a day increases respiration and makes you healthier. See my point?
Like I said, plant based is not the only way to achieve 'health' but it certainly will work. I'm not sure that eating cico of cheeseburgers/fries paired with exercise will lead to healthy levels (just using that as an extreme example...I realize not everyone just eats one food).
So I do believe there is truth to what your say, but I also think there is merit to the plant based diet for general health...it's certainly not going to hurt anything. So if people believe that plant based will get them to the finish line, I support them fully.
Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Why does it have to be plant based diet or cheeseburgers and fries? There is middle ground, and that's where it's ideal to be. Animal products are not inherently bad, it's just that the vast majority of the population consumes animal products, so when people make comparison studies, they compare subjects who eat a plant based diet(which tend to be people that are conscious about what they're eating) to the general population, which consists mostly of people who don't care at all what they're eating. That's not a fair or intellectually honest comparison to make, and those who make it do it to make a point, not to be transparent. I've never seen a good comparison of plant based dieters to dieters who consume animal products, but also consume adequate fiber and micronutrients as well.
The reason I mentioned the extreme is because many people here state that the cico is simply based on eating fewer calories that expended regardless of what it is. For argument sake I'll change my 'cheeseburgers' to the 'typical western diet' in order to leave room for variety.
On the other hand, what is wrong with the 'extreme' of eating strictly plant based? Why is this so bad? Everything I've read said plant based is extremely healthy. By saying plant based is healthy does not mean non-plant based is not healthy. It's simply one way of achieving ones goal. Can it be achieved eating meat? I'm sure it can. "There is more than one way to skin a cat. "
As far as CICO goes, it is an undeniable fact that (water weight fluctuations aside) if you consume more calories than you burn you will gain weight. If you consume fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight. That is according to the laws of physics and biology. You cannot outrun that. That is separate from health, but in general, the vast vast vast majority of health problems having to do with nutrition stem from being overweight, not from not eating enough veggies.
To answer your question of "what is wrong with the 'extreme' of eating strictly plant based?
1. Often times not enough protein consumption, and not enough fat consumption with plant based diets.
2. The protein sources you do consume are less complete(fewer essential amino acids), and they tend to be less bioavailable for your body to breakdown and use.
3. You're unnecessarily restricting something out of your diet that is not harmful to you or even bad for you in moderate amounts.
4. Restrictive diets are more prone to disorders that include binge eating and orthorexia nervosa, when you inevitably eat something that does not fall within the confines of your diet.
I agree that if you eat less calories than you burn you will lose weight. Depending on what you consume with those calories will determine if you are healthy or not.
You say the vast majority of health issues rise from being over weight and not from not eating enough veggies? That may be true, but what caused them to be over weight in the first place? For a lot (not all) of people, they probably became over weight from eating the wrong foods and wrong amount of food from the beginning. Yes you can gain weight from eating too many veggies, but generally speaking those who eat veggie based diets from the beginning (or whole food diets for example) don't have weight problems to start with (yes there are obviously exceptions to this statement).
There are plenty of non-meat sources of protein and fat out there. If one is educated in plant based nutrution, protein and fat consumption should not be an issue. Just ask all the vegetarians out there...they seem to be doing just fine.
Some people restrict certain safe, healthy foods for personal reasons. You canot assume they are not eating meat because they think it is unhealthy.4 -
There is a tv show on the Z Living Network called Big Fat Truth. It's pretty interesting because they put "unhealthy" people on a plant based diet for 30 days and you get to see the transformation.
They have plant based recipes on their website.
https://www.zliving.com/food/recipes
I've never seen the show, but let me guess, they put unhealthy people on a plant based diet that just so happens to also put them in a calorie deficit, and they also have them throw in some exercise, and by the end they end up losing weight and having better health markers across the board? Is that about right?
To sum it up, yes you are right...they end up losing weight and end up with healthy markers across the board. Many of them start with high blood pressure, high LDL cholesterol, pre-diabetic etc, and by 10 days their levels start going down and by 30 days most are within healthy range. The purpose of the show is to transform their unhealthy lifestyle into something they can maintain long term. It's not simply about losing weight...it's about becoming healthy from a nutrition standpoint. If you can tell me how this is a problem or unhealthy I'd love to hear it.
I understand that a plant based diet is not the only way to achieve this, but it is one way that works, so what is the problem?
My only problem is that it's extremely misleading. It's almost completely the weight loss and exercise that is making all their health markers better and they don't even acknowledge that, they give all the credit to the plant based diet. That's like doing a study where you take people who smoke a pack a day, and have them completely stop smoking for 6 months and also read a book for an hour a day and at the end saying that an hour of reading a day increases respiration and makes you healthier. See my point?
Like I said, plant based is not the only way to achieve 'health' but it certainly will work. I'm not sure that eating cico of cheeseburgers/fries paired with exercise will lead to healthy levels (just using that as an extreme example...I realize not everyone just eats one food).
So I do believe there is truth to what your say, but I also think there is merit to the plant based diet for general health...it's certainly not going to hurt anything. So if people believe that plant based will get them to the finish line, I support them fully.
Why does it have to be one extreme or the other? Why does it have to be plant based diet or cheeseburgers and fries? There is middle ground, and that's where it's ideal to be. Animal products are not inherently bad, it's just that the vast majority of the population consumes animal products, so when people make comparison studies, they compare subjects who eat a plant based diet(which tend to be people that are conscious about what they're eating) to the general population, which consists mostly of people who don't care at all what they're eating. That's not a fair or intellectually honest comparison to make, and those who make it do it to make a point, not to be transparent. I've never seen a good comparison of plant based dieters to dieters who consume animal products, but also consume adequate fiber and micronutrients as well.
The reason I mentioned the extreme is because many people here state that the cico is simply based on eating fewer calories that expended regardless of what it is. For argument sake I'll change my 'cheeseburgers' to the 'typical western diet' in order to leave room for variety.
On the other hand, what is wrong with the 'extreme' of eating strictly plant based? Why is this so bad? Everything I've read said plant based is extremely healthy. By saying plant based is healthy does not mean non-plant based is not healthy. It's simply one way of achieving ones goal. Can it be achieved eating meat? I'm sure it can. "There is more than one way to skin a cat. "
As far as CICO goes, it is an undeniable fact that (water weight fluctuations aside) if you consume more calories than you burn you will gain weight. If you consume fewer calories than you burn, you will lose weight. That is according to the laws of physics and biology. You cannot outrun that. That is separate from health, but in general, the vast vast vast majority of health problems having to do with nutrition stem from being overweight, not from not eating enough veggies.
To answer your question of "what is wrong with the 'extreme' of eating strictly plant based?
1. Often times not enough protein consumption, and not enough fat consumption with plant based diets.
2. The protein sources you do consume are less complete(fewer essential amino acids), and they tend to be less bioavailable for your body to breakdown and use.
3. You're unnecessarily restricting something out of your diet that is not harmful to you or even bad for you in moderate amounts.
4. Restrictive diets are more prone to disorders that include binge eating and orthorexia nervosa, when you inevitably eat something that does not fall within the confines of your diet.
You say the vast majority of health issues rise from being over weight and not from not eating enough veggies? That may be true, but what caused them to be over weight in the first place?
Eating more calories than they burn...
There are a lot of factors that contribute to this, low activity levels, eating schedule, etc, but it all comes back to calorie balance.For a lot (not all) of people, they probably became over weight from eating the wrong foods and wrong amount of food from the beginning.
They became overweight because they ate too many calories, and were not active enough. Stop blaming individual foods for a broader problem...Yes you can gain weight from eating too many veggies, but generally speaking those who eat veggie based diets from the beginning
There are plenty of vegetarians that over consume calories. Most really calorie dense foods that people tend to over consume and abuse are not meat. Whole foods are a little different, but even fruits can be pretty calorie dense, and people tend to think "oh fruits are healthy, I can eat as much as I want", but they're just full of sugar for the most part.There are plenty of non-meat sources of protein and fat out there.
I didn't disagree with that point, I simply said vegetarians tend to consume less fat, which is true. As for protein, aside from meat, it's actually pretty difficult to find anything close to isolated sources of protein out there. Most protein in a vegetarian diet comes hand in hand with a good deal of carbohydrates, and as I mentioned before, protein from non animal sources have a less complete amino acid profile than animal sources of protein, so you may be getting close to the same total protein intake, but it's a lower quality intake of protein due to the amino acid profile you're consuming.Some people restrict certain safe, healthy foods for personal reasons. You canot assume they are not eating meat because they think it is unhealthy.
True, and I have no problem with that, if one's reasons for avoiding animal sources of food come from a moral place, that is fine, do you. There just seem to be a lot of people who restrict animal sources of food because they believe them to be unhealthy in any context or in any amount, and that is not the case, that is all I'm saying.4 -
He's talking about a factual issue: are animal products, even in small amounts, always harmful to health.
You can debate the evidence, but it's not simply a matter of opinion.3 -
As lemurcat said, it wasn't an opinion, it's factual. To say that animal products are always unhealthy in any context and in any amount is categorically false.4 -
How goes the transition?1
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If you look at the Forks Over Knives website , Engine 2 and loads of whole food plant based (WFPB) groups on social media you will get a good idea of some meals to try. It's a really healthy way of eating. Most of us eat far too much processed food and not enough fruit and vegetables so it corrects that. It is difficult to stick to, well it is for me. Being vegan is easy, WFPB not so much!4
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To original poster: Please join the Happy Herbivores group for more ideas. Send me a friend request if you want a list of resources that I used to move in the mostly plant direction. Logging really helps!1
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If you look at the Forks Over Knives website , Engine 2 and loads of whole food plant based (WFPB) groups on social media you will get a good idea of some meals to try. It's a really healthy way of eating. Most of us eat far too much processed food and not enough fruit and vegetables so it corrects that. It is difficult to stick to, well it is for me. Being vegan is easy, WFPB not so much!
I actually found I ate more processed foods when I tried plant based for a while, because I relied on tofu, seitan, and tempeh to supplement my protein and ate more grains and canned beans.
I didn't eat more vegetables (maybe more fruit, but I don't think so -- for me that is just about the time of year), but I eat a lot already. I mostly shifted meat to more starchy carbs.
I DO think a lot of people go from a nutrient poor, not many vegetables or fruits diet to increasing those (sometimes it seems much more fruit than vegetables), and I suspect that has more to do with the positive benefits, in addition to weight loss, of course. But the idea that if you aren't 100% plant based you must be eating the so called SAD is inaccurate and one reason these claims get pushback.
I think the best reason to go 100% plant based is the ethical one, and although I don't agree it's ethically necessary I respect the choice and say good for you. (And if including some processed foods makes it easier, I see no harm in that, and same with making sure you have the level of protein and fat that helps you feel good.)1
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