Ketogenic diet
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »...I'm not really sure why CICO gets blamed for people's yo yo dieting experience, and keto gets all the credit for the success - but whatever...
Because of tinfoil hat pseudoscientist crackpots like Taubes, Fung and Lustig, that's why. They willfully subvert/ignore science (and prey upon those not analytical enough to see through their woo) in the name of the almighty dollar.
Don't they pretty much trash talk it on their platforms and basically misrepresent what it is? I'm convinced they're single-handedly responsible for the idea that CICO=eating Twinkies and donuts all day.
Yes. They (and their True Believers) often engage in the classic binary argument pattern in an attempt to strengthen their points. Either you're eating keto, or you're sitting on the couch shoveling mountains of sugar down your pie hole all day, every day. No possible way that there could be a reasonable, moderate middle ground which takes balanced nutrition into consideration.
A month or so ago, Fung (or one of his lackeys) sic'ed his sycophants on either Eric Helms or Brad Schoenfeld (can't remember which) when they posted a link to a study on Facebook which wasn't favorable of Fung and his woo. The venom and vulgar personal attacks they spewed were absolutely vicious and way over the top. Unbelievably filthy and repulsive. You'd think that each of them had been personally attacked and were retaliating for it, rather than a link to a scientific study being posted. I've seen religious wars that were less fervent. It was absolutely disgusting.
I've seen Fung throw middle aged temper tantrums via responses on fb and twitter, even in the midst of his fat shaming tweet. It separated keto into separate camps: "true keto/LCHF ketone chasers" that follow Jimmy Moore, Jason Fung, Gary Taubes, etc. and the adorably coined "CICOpath meatheads" that follow evidence based research in dietary strategies for body composition and adherence. I've been banned by the former for touting thermodynamics, the importance of protein, and denouncing the magic of ketones for fat loss and improvement of health markers.
Funny enough, the ketone chasers' favorite phrase was "show me the evidence" where anecdote seemingly trumped RCTs and meta-analyses. Go figure.
Apparently they haven't yet figured out that the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.
...or maybe it's because anecdote is all they have to 'prove' their points, since actual science pretty soundly disagrees.
[ETA:] Here's a good evidence-based retort to one of Fung's hissy fits and junk science: https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/9 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »...I'm not really sure why CICO gets blamed for people's yo yo dieting experience, and keto gets all the credit for the success - but whatever...
Because of tinfoil hat pseudoscientist crackpots like Taubes, Fung and Lustig, that's why. They willfully subvert/ignore science (and prey upon those not analytical enough to see through their woo) in the name of the almighty dollar.
Don't they pretty much trash talk it on their platforms and basically misrepresent what it is? I'm convinced they're single-handedly responsible for the idea that CICO=eating Twinkies and donuts all day.
Yes. They (and their True Believers) often engage in the classic binary argument pattern in an attempt to strengthen their points. Either you're eating keto, or you're sitting on the couch shoveling mountains of sugar down your pie hole all day, every day. No possible way that there could be a reasonable, moderate middle ground which takes balanced nutrition into consideration.
A month or so ago, Fung (or one of his lackeys) sic'ed his sycophants on either Eric Helms or Brad Schoenfeld (can't remember which) when they posted a link to a study on Facebook which wasn't favorable of Fung and his woo. The venom and vulgar personal attacks they spewed were absolutely vicious and way over the top. Unbelievably filthy and repulsive. You'd think that each of them had been personally attacked and were retaliating for it, rather than a link to a scientific study being posted. I've seen religious wars that were less fervent. It was absolutely disgusting.
I've seen Fung throw middle aged temper tantrums via responses on fb and twitter, even in the midst of his fat shaming tweet. It separated keto into separate camps: "true keto/LCHF ketone chasers" that follow Jimmy Moore, Jason Fung, Gary Taubes, etc. and the adorably coined "CICOpath meatheads" that follow evidence based research in dietary strategies for body composition and adherence. I've been banned by the former for touting thermodynamics, the importance of protein, and denouncing the magic of ketones for fat loss and improvement of health markers.
Funny enough, the ketone chasers' favorite phrase was "show me the evidence" where anecdote seemingly trumped RCTs and meta-analyses. Go figure.
Apparently they haven't yet figured out that the plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'.
...or maybe it's because anecdote is all they have to 'prove' their points, since actual science pretty soundly disagrees.
[ETA:] Here's a good evidence-based retort to one of Fung's hissy fits and junk science: https://www.myoleanfitness.com/evidence-caloric-restriction/
The thing is, and I'm hearing this more and more lately, "thousands of anecdotes become data" and you bet they've equated anecdote to be singular points of data.
The only appropriate response I could give was, "bruuuh.. lol."
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If it is repeated often enough, it becomes true.3
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Eating in a way that resolves over eating is the key to not regaining on any WOE. Counting calories is good at kicking the can down the road where it is LCHF, HCLF, etc. Until the "WHY" of one's overeating is addressed no long term obesity control is likely to happen.
I still do not grasp while some with no credibility seem to have an emotional need to slam others that are named above who have credibility in black and white.19 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Eating in a way that resolves over eating is the key to not regaining on any WOE. Counting calories is good at kicking the can down the road where it is LCHF, HCLF, etc. Until the "WHY" of one's overeating is addressed no long term obesity control is likely to happen.
I still do not grasp while some with no credibility seem to have an emotional need to slam others that are named above who have credibility in black and white.
The point is dietary adherence is the ultimate driver for long-term fat loss success, if that's what you're trying to get at. There are a multitude of reasons that might play a factor, whether it's psychological or physiological.
The credibility statement is a bit vague, but if you want to know why Fung emotionally reacts to confrontation, that's because he has a vested interest in pushing a business initiative to propose fasting as its own separate entity from caloric restriction. If you're proposing either I or @AnvilHead have an emotional need to slam others, I assure you, there's no emotion involved. We've objectively witnessed the lengths that Fung is willing to go through to assert his stance and are expressing opinions based on our observations.9 -
Another Keto WOE success story perhaps?
https://nypost.com/2018/03/19/heres-how-to-crush-a-race-by-running-on-a-keto-diet/16 -
GaleHawkins wrote: »Another Keto WOE success story perhaps?
https://nypost.com/2018/03/19/heres-how-to-crush-a-race-by-running-on-a-keto-diet/
You posting thay again..
Ill just repeat, he finished 11,326... So close and well behind all the carb loaders.13 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »...I'm not really sure why CICO gets blamed for people's yo yo dieting experience, and keto gets all the credit for the success - but whatever...
Because of tinfoil hat pseudoscientist crackpots like Taubes, Fung and Lustig, that's why. They willfully subvert/ignore science (and prey upon those not analytical enough to see through their woo) in the name of the almighty dollar.
Don't they pretty much trash talk it on their platforms and basically misrepresent what it is? I'm convinced they're single-handedly responsible for the idea that CICO=eating Twinkies and donuts all day.
Yes. They (and their True Believers) often engage in the classic binary argument pattern in an attempt to strengthen their points. Either you're eating keto, or you're sitting on the couch shoveling mountains of sugar down your pie hole all day, every day. No possible way that there could be a reasonable, moderate middle ground which takes balanced nutrition into consideration.
A month or so ago, Fung (or one of his lackeys) sic'ed his sycophants on either Eric Helms or Brad Schoenfeld (can't remember which) when they posted a link to a study on Facebook which wasn't favorable of Fung and his woo. The venom and vulgar personal attacks they spewed were absolutely vicious and way over the top. Unbelievably filthy and repulsive. You'd think that each of them had been personally attacked and were retaliating for it, rather than a link to a scientific study being posted. I've seen religious wars that were less fervent. It was absolutely disgusting.
I've seen Fung throw middle aged temper tantrums via responses on fb and twitter, even in the midst of his fat shaming tweet. It separated keto into separate camps: "true keto/LCHF ketone chasers" that follow Jimmy Moore, Jason Fung, Gary Taubes, etc. and the adorably coined "CICOpath meatheads" that follow evidence based research in dietary strategies for body composition and adherence. I've been banned by the former for touting thermodynamics, the importance of protein, and denouncing the magic of ketones for fat loss and improvement of health markers.
Funny enough, the ketone chasers' favorite phrase was "show me the evidence" where anecdote seemingly trumped RCTs and meta-analyses. Go figure.
Stuff like this just reinforces that taking the advice of a doctor is generally pathetic, unless its a doctor like Dr. Spencer Nadolsky.
I actually feel bad that these diets have so many zealots being the focal leaders representing the diet. Because when there is actual science, it tends to get overlooked. Now someone like Dr. Dom D'Agostino is legit when it comes to ketogenic.4 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »...I'm not really sure why CICO gets blamed for people's yo yo dieting experience, and keto gets all the credit for the success - but whatever...
Because of tinfoil hat pseudoscientist crackpots like Taubes, Fung and Lustig, that's why. They willfully subvert/ignore science (and prey upon those not analytical enough to see through their woo) in the name of the almighty dollar.
Don't they pretty much trash talk it on their platforms and basically misrepresent what it is? I'm convinced they're single-handedly responsible for the idea that CICO=eating Twinkies and donuts all day.
Yes. They (and their True Believers) often engage in the classic binary argument pattern in an attempt to strengthen their points. Either you're eating keto, or you're sitting on the couch shoveling mountains of sugar down your pie hole all day, every day. No possible way that there could be a reasonable, moderate middle ground which takes balanced nutrition into consideration.
A month or so ago, Fung (or one of his lackeys) sic'ed his sycophants on either Eric Helms or Brad Schoenfeld (can't remember which) when they posted a link to a study on Facebook which wasn't favorable of Fung and his woo. The venom and vulgar personal attacks they spewed were absolutely vicious and way over the top. Unbelievably filthy and repulsive. You'd think that each of them had been personally attacked and were retaliating for it, rather than a link to a scientific study being posted. I've seen religious wars that were less fervent. It was absolutely disgusting.
I've seen Fung throw middle aged temper tantrums via responses on fb and twitter, even in the midst of his fat shaming tweet. It separated keto into separate camps: "true keto/LCHF ketone chasers" that follow Jimmy Moore, Jason Fung, Gary Taubes, etc. and the adorably coined "CICOpath meatheads" that follow evidence based research in dietary strategies for body composition and adherence. I've been banned by the former for touting thermodynamics, the importance of protein, and denouncing the magic of ketones for fat loss and improvement of health markers.
Funny enough, the ketone chasers' favorite phrase was "show me the evidence" where anecdote seemingly trumped RCTs and meta-analyses. Go figure.
Stuff like this just reinforces that taking the advice of a doctor is generally pathetic, unless its a doctor like Dr. Spencer Nadolsky.
I actually feel bad that these diets have so many zealots being the focal leaders representing the diet. Because when there is actual science, it tends to get overlooked. Now someone like Dr. Dom D'Agostino is legit when it comes to ketogenic.
Not so sure. He now has his own site (ketonutrition.org) pimping woo "supplements" such as exogenous ketones, and selling his book about how keto cures cancer. Dom may have jumped the shark, like Fung and others who prostitute their reputations for money.2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »...I'm not really sure why CICO gets blamed for people's yo yo dieting experience, and keto gets all the credit for the success - but whatever...
Because of tinfoil hat pseudoscientist crackpots like Taubes, Fung and Lustig, that's why. They willfully subvert/ignore science (and prey upon those not analytical enough to see through their woo) in the name of the almighty dollar.
Don't they pretty much trash talk it on their platforms and basically misrepresent what it is? I'm convinced they're single-handedly responsible for the idea that CICO=eating Twinkies and donuts all day.
Yes. They (and their True Believers) often engage in the classic binary argument pattern in an attempt to strengthen their points. Either you're eating keto, or you're sitting on the couch shoveling mountains of sugar down your pie hole all day, every day. No possible way that there could be a reasonable, moderate middle ground which takes balanced nutrition into consideration.
A month or so ago, Fung (or one of his lackeys) sic'ed his sycophants on either Eric Helms or Brad Schoenfeld (can't remember which) when they posted a link to a study on Facebook which wasn't favorable of Fung and his woo. The venom and vulgar personal attacks they spewed were absolutely vicious and way over the top. Unbelievably filthy and repulsive. You'd think that each of them had been personally attacked and were retaliating for it, rather than a link to a scientific study being posted. I've seen religious wars that were less fervent. It was absolutely disgusting.
I've seen Fung throw middle aged temper tantrums via responses on fb and twitter, even in the midst of his fat shaming tweet. It separated keto into separate camps: "true keto/LCHF ketone chasers" that follow Jimmy Moore, Jason Fung, Gary Taubes, etc. and the adorably coined "CICOpath meatheads" that follow evidence based research in dietary strategies for body composition and adherence. I've been banned by the former for touting thermodynamics, the importance of protein, and denouncing the magic of ketones for fat loss and improvement of health markers.
Funny enough, the ketone chasers' favorite phrase was "show me the evidence" where anecdote seemingly trumped RCTs and meta-analyses. Go figure.
Stuff like this just reinforces that taking the advice of a doctor is generally pathetic, unless its a doctor like Dr. Spencer Nadolsky.
I actually feel bad that these diets have so many zealots being the focal leaders representing the diet. Because when there is actual science, it tends to get overlooked. Now someone like Dr. Dom D'Agostino is legit when it comes to ketogenic.
Not so sure. He now has his own site (ketonutrition.org) pimping woo "supplements" such as exogenous ketones, and selling his book about how keto cures cancer. Dom may have jumped the shark, like Fung and others who prostitute their reputations for money.
Exogenous ketones have been shown to increase ketone levels. It can help you get into ketosis faster.
And the cures for cancer are in conjunction with cancer therapy treatments. It only relates to specific cancers, specifically ones that tend to be fueled by glucose and mainly things related to brain tumors.
ETA: if you want, check out his podcast with Layne Norton. They have been friends for a decade. All his work started with the Department of thr Navy in support of Seals.0 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »...I'm not really sure why CICO gets blamed for people's yo yo dieting experience, and keto gets all the credit for the success - but whatever...
Because of tinfoil hat pseudoscientist crackpots like Taubes, Fung and Lustig, that's why. They willfully subvert/ignore science (and prey upon those not analytical enough to see through their woo) in the name of the almighty dollar.
Don't they pretty much trash talk it on their platforms and basically misrepresent what it is? I'm convinced they're single-handedly responsible for the idea that CICO=eating Twinkies and donuts all day.
Yes. They (and their True Believers) often engage in the classic binary argument pattern in an attempt to strengthen their points. Either you're eating keto, or you're sitting on the couch shoveling mountains of sugar down your pie hole all day, every day. No possible way that there could be a reasonable, moderate middle ground which takes balanced nutrition into consideration.
A month or so ago, Fung (or one of his lackeys) sic'ed his sycophants on either Eric Helms or Brad Schoenfeld (can't remember which) when they posted a link to a study on Facebook which wasn't favorable of Fung and his woo. The venom and vulgar personal attacks they spewed were absolutely vicious and way over the top. Unbelievably filthy and repulsive. You'd think that each of them had been personally attacked and were retaliating for it, rather than a link to a scientific study being posted. I've seen religious wars that were less fervent. It was absolutely disgusting.
I've seen Fung throw middle aged temper tantrums via responses on fb and twitter, even in the midst of his fat shaming tweet. It separated keto into separate camps: "true keto/LCHF ketone chasers" that follow Jimmy Moore, Jason Fung, Gary Taubes, etc. and the adorably coined "CICOpath meatheads" that follow evidence based research in dietary strategies for body composition and adherence. I've been banned by the former for touting thermodynamics, the importance of protein, and denouncing the magic of ketones for fat loss and improvement of health markers.
Funny enough, the ketone chasers' favorite phrase was "show me the evidence" where anecdote seemingly trumped RCTs and meta-analyses. Go figure.
Stuff like this just reinforces that taking the advice of a doctor is generally pathetic, unless its a doctor like Dr. Spencer Nadolsky.
I actually feel bad that these diets have so many zealots being the focal leaders representing the diet. Because when there is actual science, it tends to get overlooked. Now someone like Dr. Dom D'Agostino is legit when it comes to ketogenic.
Not so sure. He now has his own site (ketonutrition.org) pimping woo "supplements" such as exogenous ketones, and selling his book about how keto cures cancer. Dom may have jumped the shark, like Fung and others who prostitute their reputations for money.
Exogenous ketones have been shown to increase ketone levels. It can help you get into ketosis faster.
And the cures for cancer are in conjunction with cancer therapy treatments. It only relates to specific cancers, specifically ones that tend to be fueled by glucose and mainly things related to brain tumors.
ETA: if you want, check out his podcast with Layne Norton. They have been friends for a decade. All his work started with the Department of thr Navy in support of Seals.
I'm not even so sure about that one - and neither are some ketophiles, apparently: https://ketogains.com/2015/09/to-ketone-or-not-to-ketone/
(Note the comments by D'Agostino at the bottom of the page - apparently he wasn't so convinced of their efficacy at some point either).2 -
GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »WinoGelato wrote: »...I'm not really sure why CICO gets blamed for people's yo yo dieting experience, and keto gets all the credit for the success - but whatever...
Because of tinfoil hat pseudoscientist crackpots like Taubes, Fung and Lustig, that's why. They willfully subvert/ignore science (and prey upon those not analytical enough to see through their woo) in the name of the almighty dollar.
Don't they pretty much trash talk it on their platforms and basically misrepresent what it is? I'm convinced they're single-handedly responsible for the idea that CICO=eating Twinkies and donuts all day.
Yes. They (and their True Believers) often engage in the classic binary argument pattern in an attempt to strengthen their points. Either you're eating keto, or you're sitting on the couch shoveling mountains of sugar down your pie hole all day, every day. No possible way that there could be a reasonable, moderate middle ground which takes balanced nutrition into consideration.
A month or so ago, Fung (or one of his lackeys) sic'ed his sycophants on either Eric Helms or Brad Schoenfeld (can't remember which) when they posted a link to a study on Facebook which wasn't favorable of Fung and his woo. The venom and vulgar personal attacks they spewed were absolutely vicious and way over the top. Unbelievably filthy and repulsive. You'd think that each of them had been personally attacked and were retaliating for it, rather than a link to a scientific study being posted. I've seen religious wars that were less fervent. It was absolutely disgusting.
I've seen Fung throw middle aged temper tantrums via responses on fb and twitter, even in the midst of his fat shaming tweet. It separated keto into separate camps: "true keto/LCHF ketone chasers" that follow Jimmy Moore, Jason Fung, Gary Taubes, etc. and the adorably coined "CICOpath meatheads" that follow evidence based research in dietary strategies for body composition and adherence. I've been banned by the former for touting thermodynamics, the importance of protein, and denouncing the magic of ketones for fat loss and improvement of health markers.
Funny enough, the ketone chasers' favorite phrase was "show me the evidence" where anecdote seemingly trumped RCTs and meta-analyses. Go figure.
Stuff like this just reinforces that taking the advice of a doctor is generally pathetic, unless its a doctor like Dr. Spencer Nadolsky.
I actually feel bad that these diets have so many zealots being the focal leaders representing the diet. Because when there is actual science, it tends to get overlooked. Now someone like Dr. Dom D'Agostino is legit when it comes to ketogenic.
Not so sure. He now has his own site (ketonutrition.org) pimping woo "supplements" such as exogenous ketones, and selling his book about how keto cures cancer. Dom may have jumped the shark, like Fung and others who prostitute their reputations for money.
Exogenous ketones have been shown to increase ketone levels. It can help you get into ketosis faster.
And the cures for cancer are in conjunction with cancer therapy treatments. It only relates to specific cancers, specifically ones that tend to be fueled by glucose and mainly things related to brain tumors.
ETA: if you want, check out his podcast with Layne Norton. They have been friends for a decade. All his work started with the Department of thr Navy in support of Seals.
I'm not even so sure about that one - and neither are some ketophiles, apparently: https://ketogains.com/2015/09/to-ketone-or-not-to-ketone/
(Note the comments by D'Agostino at the bottom of the page - apparently he wasn't so convinced of their efficacy at some point either).
The exogenous ketones he developed was for navy seals who found ketones to be helpful in avoiding seizures when using oxygen re-breathers when they they were not using a ketogenic diet in the weeks before hand.
The uses for exogenous ketones also include epilepsy and dementia. For weight loss? No use at all.3 -
Dom’s work in cancer therapy was based on the Warburg effect, proposing glycolysis fueled cancer cells, pushing for the use of exo ketones (EK) as a method of treatment, but Chad Macias has been deep in oncological research that suggested certain other cancer cells and fibroblasts can also be fueled by ketones or fatty acids, so keto can’t be suggested as a frontline therapy, to support the line for specificity in adjunct therapy for certain forms of cancer.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Chad_Macias/publication/317415645_Assessing_the_Role_of_the_Ketogenic_Diet_as_a_Metabolic_Therapy_in_Cancer_Is_it_Evidence_Based/links/59d78e350f7e9b42a6b0a8fd/Assessing-the-Role-of-the-Ketogenic-Diet-as-a-Metabolic-Therapy-in-Cancer-Is-it-Evidence-Based.pdf4 -
Also, I couldn't find anything specific to link to, but I searched Lyle's website and FB group, since he knows a bit about ketogenic dieting (i.e., he's authored several books on the subject). No specific studies or links found, but he has total disdain for exogenous ketones and calls them BS in no uncertain terms (in his typical, inimitable style).5
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EKs do nothing positive in human metabolism in terms of fat oxidation. In fact, superficially inflated ketone levels have a negative feedback loop to prevent lipolysis, to burn ketones first to prevent metabolic ketoacidosis. So, in a way, they are second to alcohol in oxidative priority to halt oxidation of other substrates until ketone levels are reduced to a manageable amount.
Simply put, a buildup of ketones themselves inhibit fat burning. Which is the stake in the heart of high ketone chasers.
For diabetics attempting to manage their glucose levels, EKs will also shut off glycolysis for the same reason. A KD is fine by itself for reducing insulin resistance, but artificially inflating ketones in circulation can also signal a surge of insulin (to halt lipolysis), and in the face of insulin resistance, that is the last thing a diabetic needs.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5670148/
Alex Leaf and Mike Julian touch on the same subject in this podcast. And for context, they both follow a low carb dieting approach with a priority for protein intake. I posted this in the low carb MFP group as well.
http://www.lowcarbconversations.com/?p=4154
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^Fascinating discussion.3
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4
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GaleHawkins wrote: »Another Keto WOE success story perhaps?
https://nypost.com/2018/03/19/heres-how-to-crush-a-race-by-running-on-a-keto-diet/
You didn't really trot that out again did you?? Lol!4 -
janejellyroll wrote: »My impression is that most people who are successful managing their weight counting calories use some sort of strategy to ensure satiety. Very few people seem to be doing "straight CICO" in the sense that you seem to describing.
Maybe... my experience is different. In my experience, people who are successful in managing their weight USUALLY never had a weight problem to begin with. My wife is one of those people. She's been roughly 120lb her entire adult life, and she's my age now. She has NEVER struggled with her weight, and she NEVER has an issue with things like portion control, satiety, what have you.
She only partially understands my struggle through being with me for 25+ years. And even then, she tells me to this day that there are facets of my problem that she will simply never understand.
This community often loves to demonize people like Lustig, Taubes and Teicholz and whoever else is in the "Keto Cabal" these days - and that's fine. They're entitled. But I read the bodies of work they produced, and followed many of their principles. And sure enough, they worked out well for me. I lost my weight, and thus far I've kept it off without any undue hunger issues.
Quacks or not, they had ME figured out, obviously.
I'm not saying CICO is a failure - just that CICO alone failed *me* in its dry, mathematical way or at least in the admittedly ambiguous way I applied it. I may still be doing "CICO" in some fashion, right? I mean, I must clearly be consuming fewer calories than I am expending, or I'd be regaining my weight, right?
Even if that is the case (which is fine!), I am now able to do whatever it is I'm doing without feeling hungry. That's the big win for me. I can eat a nominal amount of food that, when consumed, satiates me to the degree where I don't overeat. And for that, I owe people like Taubes, Teicholz, Fung, Lustig, Westman, and the other "Keto Cabal" members a great deal of gratitude. Their bodies of work resonated with me and gave me a path to where I am now.
Let's just hope I don't drop dead tomorrow
Call Keto whatever you like. Do it. Or don't do it. Listen to what the "Keto Cabal" has to say. Or don't. But this Keto business works for me, and I'm going to keep on doing it.
Let me clarify: when I say "people who are successful managing their weight counting calories," I mean people who are using it to recover from being overweight or obese. I wouldn't include people like your wife -- who have never been overweight and who aren't counting calories -- in that group. I'm talking about people who are deliberately managing their weight and using calorie counting as a tool to make that happen. These people, at least in my experience, are usually using some kind of strategy to manage hunger. It may not be keto (because keto doesn't work for everyone), it may be high fiber, higher protein, volume eating, IF, whatever they have found to work for them. But what they're not doing (usually) is just eating whatever appeals to their fancy in a given moment and then riding out hunger pangs for hours.
There is no "may" about it. Your body weight is still determined by CICO even if you aren't counting calories. Everyone's body works that way, even people who don't know what a calorie is.
I don't think anyone is trying to persuade people who have found keto to be a workable strategy to manage their calorie intake that they shouldn't do it anymore than anyone is trying to persuade me that I should no longer be a volume eater or that someone who has success skipping breakfast should try to choke something down right after they wake up. The question isn't "Is keto a good way for some people to manage their calorie intake?" The debate comes in when people try to blame non-keto lifestyles for *all obesity* or theorize that keto is a superior weight loss method for everyone.7
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