What is your take on Saturated Fats and Cholesterol from red meats, dairy etc...
Replies
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Aren't avocado, olive, and nut oils vegetable oils? Color me confused.
No, those are not generally considered to be vegetable oils... Not sure why they aren't lumped in there too. They tend to be thought of separately for some reason. Like if a recipe called for a vegetable oil, very few people would go to olive oil. KWIM? Seems like vegetable oils are from plants that you would not normally associate with oil: soy, rapeseed, safflower, corn, etc.
Technically olive and avocado oil could be thought of as fruit oils.
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Aren't avocado, olive, and nut oils vegetable oils? Color me confused.
No, those are not generally considered to be vegetable oils... Not sure why they aren't lumped in there too. They tend to be thought of separately for some reason. Like if a recipe called for a vegetable oil, very few people would go to olive oil. KWIM? Seems like vegetable oils are from plants that you would not normally associate with oil: soy, rapeseed, safflower, corn, etc.
Technically olive and avocado oil could be thought of as fruit oils.
They aren't generally thought of as vegetable oils by whom?0 -
If a recipe called for vegetable oil I'd use olive oil, probably. It's my default oil. I might use avocado oil or coconut oil or even butter depending on what the flavor profile was and the cooking method -- I wouldn't think the kind of oil a recipe specified would matter that much, and those are the only oils I usually have on hand. (But then I don't follow recipes that often anyway, I get inspired by them.)1
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I'm still not going to eat sausage daily.0
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GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Aren't avocado, olive, and nut oils vegetable oils? Color me confused.
No, those are not generally considered to be vegetable oils... Not sure why they aren't lumped in there too. They tend to be thought of separately for some reason. Like if a recipe called for a vegetable oil, very few people would go to olive oil. KWIM? Seems like vegetable oils are from plants that you would not normally associate with oil: soy, rapeseed, safflower, corn, etc.
Technically olive and avocado oil could be thought of as fruit oils.
By whom? When I googled this, a woo site with scaremongering didn't consider them vegetable oils, but the Wikipedia page on vegetable oils considered everything from plants fair game.
So what's "generally" in your books? I'd rather go with Wikipedia.
If a recipe called for vegetable oil, I'd use olive oil. It's what I naturally think of as a vegetable oil and is my oil of choice.1 -
Pointing out how your wrong is now considered over reacting, ok.
Umm... No. That's not what the PURE study found. The study basically comes down to this:Saturated fats appear to be perfectly healthy. I think the latest study, the PURE study, found that higher rates of saturated fat intake were not associated with a higher risk of mortality.
People from poor countries have poor diets and poor healthcare, therefore are sicker and have higher rates mortality. This study changes nothing.
Either:
(1) you read the study and didn't understand it
Or
(2) didn't bother to read the study and just regurgitated something from one of your favorite keto propaganda websites
Or
(3) your being intellectually dishonest again and purposely trying to mislead people and hoping no one will notice.
Just for fun, what was the highest % of calories from saturated fat in the PURE study, what was the average and what are the current WHO recommendations for sat fat intake?
Also, saturated fat is not perfectly healthy:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26068959
Do you have any misinterpreted data to support this?Now vegetable oils? Not so good...
I think you may be over reacting. Just a bit.
See, now here is where you are wrong. (sorry for over reacting) Lets take a look at table 3 from the PURE study. Take a gander at the upper left hand corner, the section titled Percentage energy from saturated fatty acids, look 2 lines down to total mortality, compare quintile 4 to quintile 5. Hmmm.... incidence of mortality went up from as sat fat intake went up, kinda opposite of what you would like us to believe.The PURE study definitely looked at those with poorer diets. Poorer diets are often lower in animal products and higher in refined foods. It may be a coincidence. It may not.
But it also stated that higher saturated fats (and not even that high - not ketogenic) do not raise mortality. Those who were eating higher saturated fats often had a lower mortality.
I believe the PURE study's highest saturated fat was around 18%. I don't remember the average. Higher saturated fats were not associated with increased mortality. The WHO and the ADA have recommendations of 10% and 6%, although I may have mixed them up.
A little bit of a strawman, don't ya think. I never said anything was definitive, but it refutes your claim that saturated fats are perfectly healthy. Again, sorry if I'm over reacting.The link you included was hardly definitive.
I bolded the part you may find uncomfortable.This is from your link:There was some evidence that reducing saturated fats reduced the risk of myocardial infarction (fatal and non-fatal, RR 0.90; 95% CI 0.80 to 1.01; 11 trials, 53,167 participants), but evidence for non-fatal myocardial infarction (RR 0.95; 95% CI 0.80 to 1.13; 9 trials, 52,834 participants) was unclear and there were no clear effects on stroke (any stroke, RR 1.00; 95% CI 0.89 to 1.12; 8 trials, 50,952 participants).
Fixed it for ya. And it also appears that saturated fats may be less healthy than some polyunsaturated fats. Again, lets go to the PURE study:And yes, it appears that some vegetable oils are less healthy than saturated fats.
Now if saturated fats are perfectly healthy, as you claim, shouldn't they always be on the lower end of these hazard ratios? Granted, they are on some, but on others they are on the higher end, for example, when replacing 5% of carbohydrate calories for fat, total mortality is less with polyunsaturated fats vs saturated fats.
Hey look, we agree on something.High levels of omega 6s from highly processed vegetable oils do not appear to be all that healthy.
Looks like someone is moving the goalposts again. Here's your original claim:Safflower, soy and corn oils are what I am talking about here. Foods you would not normally associate with fats and oils.
A wee bit different, wouldn't ya say?Now vegetable oils? Not so good...
From your link:
Remind me again how perfectly healthy saturated fats are for me.The replacement of dietary saturated fats with some, but not all polyunsaturated fatty acids reduces serum cholesterol levels and the risk of heart disease.
Coconut oil is not very healthy. I would agree that its the king of marketing hype. Citations to support the bolded as the experts thoroughly disagree with you:Avocado, olive or nut oils are healthier non animal fat sources than vegetable oils. Coconut oil too, but that is the king of saturated fats from plants.
http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/early/2017/06/15/CIR.0000000000000510.
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lemurcat12 wrote: »If a recipe called for vegetable oil I'd use olive oil, probably. It's my default oil. I might use avocado oil or coconut oil or even butter depending on what the flavor profile was and the cooking method -- I wouldn't think the kind of oil a recipe specified would matter that much, and those are the only oils I usually have on hand. (But then I don't follow recipes that often anyway, I get inspired by them.)
Vegetable oil is vegetable oil1 -
forward0backward wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If a recipe called for vegetable oil I'd use olive oil, probably. It's my default oil. I might use avocado oil or coconut oil or even butter depending on what the flavor profile was and the cooking method -- I wouldn't think the kind of oil a recipe specified would matter that much, and those are the only oils I usually have on hand. (But then I don't follow recipes that often anyway, I get inspired by them.)
Vegetable oil is vegetable oil
Why is that tagged onto my comment (and isn't what people understand by "vegetable oil" under discussion)?0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »forward0backward wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If a recipe called for vegetable oil I'd use olive oil, probably. It's my default oil. I might use avocado oil or coconut oil or even butter depending on what the flavor profile was and the cooking method -- I wouldn't think the kind of oil a recipe specified would matter that much, and those are the only oils I usually have on hand. (But then I don't follow recipes that often anyway, I get inspired by them.)
Vegetable oil is vegetable oil
Why is that tagged onto my comment (and isn't what people understand by "vegetable oil" under discussion)?
I would wager that discussion would only happen on MFP. LOL0 -
i don't know how people can substitute vegetable oil for olive oil in a recipe. They taste completely different and behave completely differently when cooking.1
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i don't know how people can substitute vegetable oil for olive oil in a recipe. They taste completely different and behave completely differently when cooking.
It depends on the recipe. Olive does have a wonderfully full and rich taste that is not appropriate in everything, but sometimes it really makes no difference or even makes it better.
I never use what is labelled as 'vegetable oil' in the US, which is soybean oil. Like @Francl27 above I usually use canola when I want a tasteless oil. But for most cooking I use olive oil.0 -
i don't know how people can substitute vegetable oil for olive oil in a recipe. They taste completely different and behave completely differently when cooking.
Like I said, it would depend on the flavor profile what oil (or butter) fits. (I really haven't run into many recipes that call for vegetable oil specifically -- it's neutral, so I might just use a spray or spritz if I wanted neutral and then who cares). I find following recipes really closely kind of weird unless one is baking, though, so this could be me. And quite often, as Need2 says, an olive oil might taste as good or better (or avocado instead, which is another oil I usually have on hand).
I am not going to buy some oil I don't have and rarely use rather than subbing one of the other oils or sources of fat that would work, however. It doesn't matter.
Is canola not vegetable oil now? So confusing.
I actually understood what ketomom was getting at, and would agree that sometimes "vegetable oil" is used (kind of weirdly) to mean "industrial seed or grain oil," but in a recipe it just means "neutral tasting source of fat."0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »forward0backward wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »If a recipe called for vegetable oil I'd use olive oil, probably. It's my default oil. I might use avocado oil or coconut oil or even butter depending on what the flavor profile was and the cooking method -- I wouldn't think the kind of oil a recipe specified would matter that much, and those are the only oils I usually have on hand. (But then I don't follow recipes that often anyway, I get inspired by them.)
Vegetable oil is vegetable oil
Why is that tagged onto my comment (and isn't what people understand by "vegetable oil" under discussion)?
I would wager that discussion would only happen on MFP. LOL
Heh.0 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »i don't know how people can substitute vegetable oil for olive oil in a recipe. They taste completely different and behave completely differently when cooking.
Like I said, it would depend on the flavor profile what oil (or butter) fits. (I really haven't run into many recipes that call for vegetable oil specifically -- it's neutral, so I might just use a spray or spritz if I wanted neutral and then who cares). I find following recipes really closely kind of weird unless one is baking, though, so this could be me. And quite often, as Need2 says, an olive oil might taste as good or better (or avocado instead, which is another oil I usually have on hand).
I am not going to buy some oil I don't have and rarely use rather than subbing one of the other oils or sources of fat that would work, however. It doesn't matter.
Is canola not vegetable oil now? So confusing.
I actually understood what ketomom was getting at, and would agree that sometimes "vegetable oil" is used (kind of weirdly) to mean "industrial seed or grain oil," but in a recipe it just means "neutral tasting source of fat."
My understanding is that "vegetable oil" is any oil derived from plants. In fact, ketomom sort of contradicted herself in that she separated soybean, corn, and safflower oils in one category and then in the next paragraph referred to "plant oils" while citing coconut oil and we know that's okay with her and the sources she gets her information from.
As a cook, I know when a recipe calls for vegetable oil, it just wants something neutral tasting, as you mentioned.
I have grapeseed oil on hand for anything that needs a more neutral flavor like muffins.1 -
lemurcat12 wrote: »i don't know how people can substitute vegetable oil for olive oil in a recipe. They taste completely different and behave completely differently when cooking.
Like I said, it would depend on the flavor profile what oil (or butter) fits. (I really haven't run into many recipes that call for vegetable oil specifically -- it's neutral, so I might just use a spray or spritz if I wanted neutral and then who cares). I find following recipes really closely kind of weird unless one is baking, though, so this could be me. And quite often, as Need2 says, an olive oil might taste as good or better (or avocado instead, which is another oil I usually have on hand).
I am not going to buy some oil I don't have and rarely use rather than subbing one of the other oils or sources of fat that would work, however. It doesn't matter.
Is canola not vegetable oil now? So confusing.
I actually understood what ketomom was getting at, and would agree that sometimes "vegetable oil" is used (kind of weirdly) to mean "industrial seed or grain oil," but in a recipe it just means "neutral tasting source of fat."
I could be wrong as that's not my post, but I suspect she was thinking of vegetable oil as it is commonly labelled in the US, which is soybean oil. IDK when or why that started. It's been that way as long as I can remember but if you go to most grocery stores and pick up a bottle labelled 'vegetable oil' and look at the label, it will be soybean. Other oils like canola, corn, olive, etc. are labelled by the plant they came from.0 -
Need2Exerc1se wrote: »lemurcat12 wrote: »i don't know how people can substitute vegetable oil for olive oil in a recipe. They taste completely different and behave completely differently when cooking.
Like I said, it would depend on the flavor profile what oil (or butter) fits. (I really haven't run into many recipes that call for vegetable oil specifically -- it's neutral, so I might just use a spray or spritz if I wanted neutral and then who cares). I find following recipes really closely kind of weird unless one is baking, though, so this could be me. And quite often, as Need2 says, an olive oil might taste as good or better (or avocado instead, which is another oil I usually have on hand).
I am not going to buy some oil I don't have and rarely use rather than subbing one of the other oils or sources of fat that would work, however. It doesn't matter.
Is canola not vegetable oil now? So confusing.
I actually understood what ketomom was getting at, and would agree that sometimes "vegetable oil" is used (kind of weirdly) to mean "industrial seed or grain oil," but in a recipe it just means "neutral tasting source of fat."
I could be wrong as that's not my post, but I suspect she was thinking of vegetable oil as it is commonly labelled in the US, which is soybean oil. IDK when or why that started. It's been that way as long as I can remember but if you go to most grocery stores and pick up a bottle labelled 'vegetable oil' and look at the label, it will be soybean. Other oils like canola, corn, olive, etc. are labelled by the plant they came from.
But what she said is:GottaBurnEmAll wrote: »Aren't avocado, olive, and nut oils vegetable oils? Color me confused.
No, those are not generally considered to be vegetable oils... Not sure why they aren't lumped in there too. They tend to be thought of separately for some reason. Like if a recipe called for a vegetable oil, very few people would go to olive oil. KWIM? Seems like vegetable oils are from plants that you would not normally associate with oil: soy, rapeseed, safflower, corn, etc.
I actually was just reading something a couple of days ago (some nutrition thing) that similarly used "vegetable oil" to refer more broadly to plant oils that required more processing than coconut, olive, avocado. Beats me why.
I'd actually forgotten that "vegetable oil" was soybean, since I never buy it (or any of the neutral oils). I kind of assumed it was (or could be) canola, since I think of that as the most common neutral oil.
Here's an example of this from a cooking site:
http://www.thekitchn.com/these-are-the-4-types-of-cooking-oils-you-should-have-in-your-kitchen-223575Recipes can call for vegetable oil, which can be a very confusing term, as technically, even olive oil can be considered a vegetable oil since it comes from a plant. What it really refers to, however, are oils that have a higher smoke point and fairly neutral flavor, making them popular for high-heat cooking and for dishes where you don't really want to distinctly taste the oil. Their clean flavors also make them popular choices for deep-frying and baking.
Most vegetable oils are inexpensive and great for everyday cooking, although there are a few, like grapeseed, that come with a higher price tag.
This is actually one semantic argument that (for once) I don't care about. ;-)0
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