Migrating from SL 5x5 to 5/3/1

mreichard

Hi all. I'm male, 50 years old, 6'3" and 192#. My body fat (based on caliper measurements at the gym) is 19%. My goal is first to be stronger and second to add mass. I'm eating at a slight deficit and losing about a 0.75 pounds a week. I plan to lose at least 7-10 more pounds, then slowly bulk.

I never lifted seriously until I was 48. I ran SL 5x5 for about a year (with several deloads and slow increases toward the end). Then I got off track, took a 4 month break and came back to SL for 3 months. My lifts are mostly back to where they were (i.e. not very impressive):

bench: 210
ohp: 120
dl: 330
squat: 225

I've found that I start to feel beat up at about this point in progress with SL --- it seems like the volume of squats in particular is too much for my knees (which have many thousands of running miles on them). Despite lots of mobility work, foam rolling, PT, deloads, and squat form work, my knees get creaky when I try to squat much more then 220 three times per week.

I'm thinking of switching to 5/3/1 to see if the variety and also squatting once a week helps my knees. Recently though, I've seen lots of things basically saying that 5/3/1 is really for people stronger than me (i.e. squat > 315#, bench > 250#), and suggesting that it would be better to stick with a full body program. I'm curious if more experienced lifters have feedback on that.

Also, if folks have suggestions about how to organize accessory work with 5/3/1 (with BBB sets), that would be great. I want to add pull ups, dips, row, single leg stuff like light split squats (for knee rehab).

lorrpb

My first thought is to sub DL one day a week for squats. You would do DL every day, but nothing wrong with that IMO.

ljw5021

Remind me, is SL 5x5 similar to SS in that you're adding weight every week?

If that's the case, consider running something like Texas Method for a while. I plateaued on SS close to that point and TM allowed me to bring my working set lifts up to around a 155 OHP, 395 DL, and 315 squat. My bench has always sucked and my best there is only a couple of reps at 225.

The problem with going straight from SL (presumably linear progression workout by workout) to 5/3/1 is that 5/3/1 only adds weight once a month.

TM is a nice middle man in that you're upping the weight weekly.

EDIT: I do also see that you're eating at a deficit. Linear progression on a deficit once you're around those lifts is tough. I'd still consider Texas Method to reduce the volume of "max" lifts.

cwolfman13

mreichard wrote: »

Hi all. I'm male, 50 years old, 6'3" and 192#. My body fat (based on caliper measurements at the gym) is 19%. My goal is first to be stronger and second to add mass. I'm eating at a slight deficit and losing about a 0.75 pounds a week. I plan to lose at least 7-10 more pounds, then slowly bulk.

I never lifted seriously until I was 48. I ran SL 5x5 for about a year (with several deloads and slow increases toward the end). Then I got off track, took a 4 month break and came back to SL for 3 months. My lifts are mostly back to where they were (i.e. not very impressive):

bench: 210
ohp: 120
dl: 330
squat: 225

I've found that I start to feel beat up at about this point in progress with SL --- it seems like the volume of squats in particular is too much for my knees (which have many thousands of running miles on them). Despite lots of mobility work, foam rolling, PT, deloads, and squat form work, my knees get creaky when I try to squat much more then 220 three times per week.

I'm thinking of switching to 5/3/1 to see if the variety and also squatting once a week helps my knees. Recently though, I've seen lots of things basically saying that 5/3/1 is really for people stronger than me (i.e. squat > 315#, bench > 250#), and suggesting that it would be better to stick with a full body program. I'm curious if more experienced lifters have feedback on that.

Also, if folks have suggestions about how to organize accessory work with 5/3/1 (with BBB sets), that would be great. I want to add pull ups, dips, row, single leg stuff like light split squats (for knee rehab).

I think the reason they say that is because your strength gains are going to be much slower and non-linear than with something like 5x5.

I didn't have numbers anywhere near that when I moved to 5/3/1 but didn't care...I wanted to get stronger, but I really didn't care about achieving power lifter type numbers. I just enjoyed 5/3/1 more and it left me a bit fresher for other things I enjoy like cycling.

not_a_runner

It sounds like 5/3/1 could be a great option for you, OP. I wouldn't worry much about specific numbers to be hitting before moving to 5/3/1.. Like cwolfman mentioned, progression is going to be slower than with SL, but that's kind of what you want. (Your lifts aren't "beginner" at this point and you won't be able to increase as frequently.)
I would suggest you get Wendler's book for accessories and other programming questions. Tons of info and different ways to run 5/3/1 all planned out. Info about deloads, etc. Last I knew you could get the older edition on Amazon, or his new one on his website.

I would go with 5/3/1 over Texas Method, unless you're interesting in powerlifting (it doesn't sound like that's the case..)
5/3/1 is set up more for regular folks looking to get stronger and improve body composition, and don't want to get overly beat up by their program (although there are variations that can totally beat a person up if that's what they're after haha;)

Okiludy

I am running 5/3/1 BBB and blackironbeast.com has a good calculator. It will calculate your tm and give you a 1 month cycle. The one for BBB has one accessory exercise for each day. I normally add face pulls to every day and I do them as a warmup. Lower weight and 5x12-15. Gets my *kitten* shoulders ready for the session. After main lift and accessory I add a couple of exercises that hit same muscles as accessory. If accessory is row I’ll add in some lat pull downs.

“Don’t major in the minors” as Mr Wendler would say. Only thing I am making sure to do is pull as much as I push. I was pushing too much and need to balance some.

Okiludy

Oh forgot, buy the book if you haven’t yet. The first, beyond, and powerlifting are all on Kindle. Forever the new book is only on his site.

ljw5021

If you opt for 5/3/1 BBB you'll need to eat a lot. The 5/3/1 "I'm not doing jack *kitten*" programming has served me well on a cut where you basically just hit the main lift of the day and leave. The BBB programming is pretty high volume (5x10 squats after heavy deads if you opt to swap the volume ones (bench/press and squat/dead).

CJ_Holmes

I am doing 5/3/1 using an iphone app called "Wendler Log." It's pretty easy to follow and has graphs that show I am making gains.

ecjim

I have a bad leg/ ankle & squats as sometimes painful - I do a full body 3X a week and alternate squats & DL so I squat 1 or 2x per week & DL 1 or 2X a week - might help your knees- the program is basically Grey skull with some tweaks -Eastcoast Jim

mreichard

Thanks all. I think I will try 5/3/1 (I got the book). And if I find that the volume/progress is not as much as I'd like, I'll probably try the Texas Method for a bit (although 5RM PRs every Friday would be tough).

ljw5021

mreichard wrote: »

Thanks all. I think I will try 5/3/1 (I got the book). And if I find that the volume/progress is not as much as I'd like, I'll probably try the Texas Method for a bit (although 5RM PRs every Friday would be tough).

Don't get me wrong, a lot of those Friday sets were tough. But mentally it was a nice relief from where I was coming from (Starting Strength) where three times a week I was setting a new 3x5 PR. This gets some volume in with a 5x5 (if memory serves) on Monday, then a nice easy day on Wednesday where you get the movement in, and then 5 good reps at a new weight on Friday.

5/3/1 employs a similar mental game there with a deload week once a month and the changing of rep schemes.

Chieflrg

mreichard wrote: »

Thanks all. I think I will try 5/3/1 (I got the book). And if I find that the volume/progress is not as much as I'd like, I'll probably try the Texas Method for a bit (although 5RM PRs every Friday would be tough).

5/3/1 is one of the most sub optimal programs out there. The AMRAP is not ideal either in many cases where progressive strength is a goal. There are way more efficient ways to build strength.

Texas method isn't much better(especially for us older folk), but there are many options of smart changes to make it a excellent option that are readily available.

I think one of the better programs to come off a novice program is "The Bridge" which is free.

canadianlbs

mreichard wrote: »

Thanks all. I think I will try 5/3/1 (I got the book). And if I find that the volume/progress is not as much as I'd like, I'll probably try the Texas Method for a bit (although 5RM PRs every Friday would be tough).

i have to say that i loved 5/3/1. ymmv of course since i'm a woman, 49 when i first touched a barbell and i guess 51 when my trainer got sick of my crappy expression and attitude, and told me it was time to move on from the 3x5 thing. was still diong whatever he told me to do, but i'd just hit that point where i was just angry all. the time. way too angry about being constantly 'punished' for completing every workout with even more weight the next time, to be getting any fun out of the process. i just went in one day and did my first set of bench and then refused to do any more sets. so i think the mental break is as important as any physical one, personally. there's something about wendler that i jsut found enormously sustainable psychologically. when it's highest volume you say 'well, these are the low weights and so i can do this.' and then as the cycle completes and you're up at the 95% point, you go 'well, that's a lot of weight but it's ONE REP, and i can always do one rep of something.' and in between times if you're impatient or feeling unsure of your form or you just want to push things, there's the whole boring-but-big addition which i did for a while and found enormously useful, personally.

i do remember that my deadlift absolutely took off on that programme (for me). it's a slow growth curve, of course, and my results for squat and bench press were more patchy for reasons that certainly aren't jim wendler's fault. but both my dl and my overhead press went to places i'd never come close to reaching on either the 5x5 or the 3x5 format, so the change was well worth it for me.

mreichard

So I switched to 531, and I'm enjoying it. I understand that it may be sub-optimal in terms of muscle stimulus for gains, but my knees and shoulder are definitely thanking me.

My question right now is this -- I entered reps/weights to calculate 1RM values pretty conservatively based on where I was after a month of SL following a 4 month layoff. After a few weeks, those numbers are starting to seem a bit low. I am ending up doing like 9 or 10 reps on my last 5 set, 7-8 on 3 sets and 5-6 on one sets. So my question is this --- should I up the 1RM numbers in the app I use, or should I just ride it out and re-evaluate after 10 or 12 cycles? I assume it will get harder as the numbers get beyond what I was doing before my layoff, so I'm inclined to be conservative. For what it's worth, I am eating at a slight deficit right now and slowly losing (0.5 to 1 pound a week).

SezxyStef

I love 5/3/1 and moved here after I did SL 5x5 then moved to SL 3x5....it's been a long time for 5/3/1 and I love it still...I do different accessory sets as I feel llike it...but don't committ to just one.

My workout takes 30mins max with accessories...

I use a paid app Five3One after tyring a few free ones...love this app...paid for it so I must.

ritzvin

mreichard wrote: »

I've found that I start to feel beat up at about this point in progress with SL --- it seems like the volume of squats in particular is too much for my knees (which have many thousands of running miles on them). Despite lots of mobility work, foam rolling, PT, deloads, and squat form work, my knees get creaky when I try to squat much more then 220 three times per week.

I'm thinking of switching to 5/3/1 to see if the variety and also squatting once a week helps my knees. Recently though, I've seen lots of things basically saying that 5/3/1 is really for people stronger than me (i.e. squat > 315#, bench > 250#), and suggesting that it would be better to stick with a full body program. I'm curious if more experienced lifters have feedback on that.

Also, if folks have suggestions about how to organize accessory work with 5/3/1 (with BBB sets), that would be great. I want to add pull ups, dips, row, single leg stuff like light split squats (for knee rehab).

1 option is to trade out the squats on deadlift day for lat pulldowns or pull-ups (which is done in other similar-ish programs. see https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/the-beginner-weight-training-workout-routine/).

TR0berts

mreichard wrote: »

So I switched to 531, and I'm enjoying it. I understand that it may be sub-optimal in terms of muscle stimulus for gains, but my knees and shoulder are definitely thanking me.

My question right now is this -- I entered reps/weights to calculate 1RM values pretty conservatively based on where I was after a month of SL following a 4 month layoff. After a few weeks, those numbers are starting to seem a bit low. I am ending up doing like 9 or 10 reps on my last 5 set, 7-8 on 3 sets and 5-6 on one sets. So my question is this --- should I up the 1RM numbers in the app I use, or should I just ride it out and re-evaluate after 10 or 12 cycles? I assume it will get harder as the numbers get beyond what I was doing before my layoff, so I'm inclined to be conservative. For what it's worth, I am eating at a slight deficit right now and slowly losing (0.5 to 1 pound a week).

Those numbers are pretty normal. I'd suggest just keep going, if you like the program.

billkansas

I'll second chieflrg on "the Bridge" to say that's what I'm trying out for several weeks now as my intermediate program. In my experience you definitely should NOT stick with linear progression and the "3 times a week (going for PR) squats" for very long... dangerous at least for older guys. The Bridge has squats or squat assistance exercises 3 times a week- a necessary break when the weights get heavy.

sgt1372

billkansas wrote: »

I'll second chieflrg on "the Bridge" to say that's what I'm trying out for several weeks now as my intermediate program. In my experience you definitely should NOT stick with linear progression and the "3 times a week (going for PR) squats" for very long... dangerous at least for older guys.

What do mean by "dangerous at least for older guys?"

That's age-related st BS.

If you think that sticking w/linear progression 3x's a wk and continually going for PRs is "dangerous" after plateauing w/Stronglifts or any other beginner program, you should consider the practice "dangerous" for everyone regardless of age.

You don't become a fraile invalid just because you get old. Some older people are because but the presumption at all older people are "at risk" because of their age is simply nonsense.

Each person's abilities and risk of injury has to be assessed individually regardless of their age.

naculp

FWIW I put in my actual maxes when I started 5/3/1 a little over 6 months ago. Since Wendler recommends 90% as the training max, that made things easier to get higher reps on those AMRAP sets.
For the 5+ set, I was getting as many as 18 reps, 3+ sets up to 15 reps, and 1+ sets up to 10 reps. I started upping the training max 10lbs per cycle on Squat and Deadlift where I was getting a ton of reps, but kept Bench Press and OHP limited to 5lb jumps.
I'm currently on my 8th cycle and I'm getting closer to barely making the minimum reps