Not satisfied with physique: lack of thickness/mass

2

Replies

  • LiftHeavyThings27105
    LiftHeavyThings27105 Posts: 2,086 Member
    Hey, man! I will chime in. Regarding deadlifts - get over the fear! I speak from experience.

    I am 50 and have been very athletic all my life (with a five year period of not so much!). I started doing squats and dead lifts last December, 2016. I never did dead lifts before. As in - never! I had not done squats since high school (so, 35 years ago) and I have a messed up left knee.

    Anyway, squats have been a God-send. The knee is not some painful. I live in Winston-Salem, NC and it gets cold here. And, the knee used to lock up and just plain hurt. I was always afraid of doing squats because of the injury way back when (I can tell you stories about that - but I digress). I watched someone on youtube - wanna say that it was Athlean X - and he was, "Dude, do squats.....if you do them with the proper form then your legs will get so much stronger and your knee will be in much better shape!". Well, he was correct.

    Now, let me tell you about my journey with squats. My form was horrible. I mean, like really bad. I hurt myself a few times. I would reach a weight that I just could not get past (180lbs was one of them) and it was all due to form. Well, the blessing there was that from each injury (one was really bad, one was just annoying) I improved. Big time. Learned all of the queues. Learned all about bracing and breathing. BAM! Way better. Not bragging, but now everyone compliments me on my form (pretty sure that they are talking about my *kitten*! LOL!). I go deep and I just get it.

    My journey with Dead Lifts is the same. Had never done them until roughly a year ago. And made all the horrible mistakes that someone can make. I am strong enough to really do stupid to myself. And, I have. But, it was all form-related. I learned all of the queues along the way (for the same reasons as with squats). And, now, I do okay for an old man! LOL!

    There are lots and lots and lots of "this is how you squat" and "this is how you deadlift" videos out there. I really like a dude from Maryland - Brian Alsruhe. He has a three-part series for each: deadlift, squat, bench press. He gives you all of the queues and he gives you all of the "this is where the issue is, this is how you fix it" information.

    Anyway, I really like squats. I LOVE dead lifts. If the good Lord where to tell me that I could do only one exercise for the rest of my life, then my training program would be dead lifts.

    So, watch those Brian Alsruhe youtube videos (or, find someone you like) and just go slow and light and get your form down and then go heavier. It is a mental thing.....

    Hope that this helps!
  • LiftHeavyThings27105
    LiftHeavyThings27105 Posts: 2,086 Member
    You might also want to consider a simple break - both from diet and from the gym. Consider three or four days....maybe even a week.

    Eat at maintenance. Keep the NEAT up (take a walk every day, walk the dog, take the stairs, et al) and then come back refreshed. If you have been doing this for two years non-stop then your body is really in need. And, your brain as well.

    Consider that....
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    MrElculver2424 wrote: »
    mike_bold wrote: »
    So maybe I missed it, but I couldn't really get from your posts. You MUST barbell squat and deadlift. Combined with excess calories, those are the two biggest mass builders which will put muscle on all over your body. Also incorporate variety of rep ranges. Getting stronger in the 1 - 3 rep range will mean you can move more weight in the 10 - 12 rep range.

    Ok, I created a new workout plan today, cutting my schedule down to 4 workout days per week instead of 6. Still hit each muscle group twice a week, but I combined more together.

    I'll do more compound movements like squats, *real* bench press (I normally just do isolation chest machines), pull-ups, and maybe I'll try deadlifts. If I do, I can't ever go too heavy on deadlifts because I know several people who screwed up their backs by going too seriously with deadlifts.

    There could be 2 reasons someone screws up their back doing deads. Either poor form. Form is critical on deads so that you are not depending on your back but using your legs and hips and the primary lift muscles. (yes, your back gets a little work too) Or, letting your ego get the best of you and pulling far too much weight. My 1rm is over 300 for deads but my work sets are 225 for 8 reps if I'm doing hypertrophy and 260 for 3 or 4 if I'm doing strength. I don't feel the need to pull my 1rm ever unless I've been working on strength and I want to test it.

    Bottom line, done safely and with good form, no issues with injury. Get a form consult if unsure. They are a regular part of my programming and there are no issues with back injuries. I am much older than you at 66 BTW.
  • MrElculver2424
    MrElculver2424 Posts: 17 Member
    Thanks for all the help guys! Really appreciate it. I will try to change my workouts so they gear more towards what we've talked about. And, take more rest days.
  • mike_bold
    mike_bold Posts: 140 Member
    MrElculver2424 wrote: »
    mike_bold wrote: »
    So maybe I missed it, but I couldn't really get from your posts. You MUST barbell squat and deadlift. Combined with excess calories, those are the two biggest mass builders which will put muscle on all over your body. Also incorporate variety of rep ranges. Getting stronger in the 1 - 3 rep range will mean you can move more weight in the 10 - 12 rep range.

    Ok, I created a new workout plan today, cutting my schedule down to 4 workout days per week instead of 6. Still hit each muscle group twice a week, but I combined more together.

    I'll do more compound movements like squats, *real* bench press (I normally just do isolation chest machines), pull-ups, and maybe I'll try deadlifts. If I do, I can't ever go too heavy on deadlifts because I know several people who screwed up their backs by going too seriously with deadlifts.

    I fixed my back by deadlifting :) That was how I originally got into the gym, weak lower back from my desk job. That was 20 years ago! Haven't looked back.
  • jseams1234
    jseams1234 Posts: 1,219 Member
    ... one of the biggest most aesthetic bodybuilders I know has never done deads or squats because of a permanent injury to his lower vertebrae. He's huge and thick and well proportioned.

    Anyhow, OP - it's been touched on a couple of times but considering how long you have been lifting and how little weight you have gained (you never did a bulk/cut cycle) it seems that you settled on the slowest possible way to build mass - a super "lean" bulk or most likely a lot of time in a recomp. Probably not trying to progess your lifts either from what you are saying... progressive overload and all. PPL's also usually involve a LOT of volume and because of that volume you need rest. Now, I'd assume since you are doing that PPL x2 a week that you lowered the volume on the individual days? Eat more, get enough rest, and dial in your program. You are 21... this is the time of your life that gains should be easiest. You are nowhere near your genetic limits yet and should be able to pack on a lot of mass if you want.
  • LiftHeavyThings27105
    LiftHeavyThings27105 Posts: 2,086 Member
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^ I think that you might have thought that we were in a different forum! The "chit chat" forum or so....LOL!
  • MrElculver2424
    MrElculver2424 Posts: 17 Member
    I've done one bulk/cut cycle, but I must have high metabolism because I have to eat like a pig in order to gain just a little weight. So I didn't want to throw up every day from eating, so I settled on a "slow bulk" if you will. It's also hard when you're out and about and have to go several hours and hours without eating sometimes.

    I'll try to up the calories even more, but it'll be difficult to accomplish day in and day out.
  • LiftHeavyThings27105
    LiftHeavyThings27105 Posts: 2,086 Member
    edited October 2017
    What is your maintenance? And how much of a caloric surplus are you enjoying at the moment (he asks, sarcastically)?


    EDIT - 3:18PM.....I missed your maintenance numbers in an earlier post. Maintenance is important to know as you go up (or down) from there. Is it super important? Well, kinda. Yes. Nutrition is going to take care of a lot of things for you - assuming that you get it right. If you get it "not so right", well, you know the saying....you can not out workout of a bad diet!

    Also, consider taking a break! From both (nutrition and training). If you have been doing this for two years then you might just be amazed at what happens to you when you take three or four days (maybe even a week) off.....
  • not_a_runner
    not_a_runner Posts: 1,343 Member
    mike_bold wrote: »
    MrElculver2424 wrote: »
    mike_bold wrote: »
    So maybe I missed it, but I couldn't really get from your posts. You MUST barbell squat and deadlift. Combined with excess calories, those are the two biggest mass builders which will put muscle on all over your body. Also incorporate variety of rep ranges. Getting stronger in the 1 - 3 rep range will mean you can move more weight in the 10 - 12 rep range.

    Ok, I created a new workout plan today, cutting my schedule down to 4 workout days per week instead of 6. Still hit each muscle group twice a week, but I combined more together.

    I'll do more compound movements like squats, *real* bench press (I normally just do isolation chest machines), pull-ups, and maybe I'll try deadlifts. If I do, I can't ever go too heavy on deadlifts because I know several people who screwed up their backs by going too seriously with deadlifts.

    I fixed my back by deadlifting :) That was how I originally got into the gym, weak lower back from my desk job. That was 20 years ago! Haven't looked back.

    Conventional deadlifts also have helped my back significantly. If you're working your core, you need to be doing something for your lower back.
  • draftsman28
    draftsman28 Posts: 98 Member

    My 3 different muscle groupings per day are:
    1: Chest and triceps
    2. Back and abs
    3. Shoulders and legs
    What type of volume (reps and sets) are you doing? If you've reached a plateau then you need to change things up. Try different movements and machines than what you've been doing. Try pyramid sets, drop sets, increase eccentric tension (lowering weight slower) to make muscles work harder, slower tempo on your lifts. Pumping out 12 fast reps in under 30 seconds is probably not enough time under tension for your muscles to grow any more.

  • quiksylver296
    quiksylver296 Posts: 28,439 Member
    I agree with everyone that says check your program. Making up your own program is usually wheel-spinning. Try a proven, progressive lifting program built by experts. There are several listed in this link. I liked Layne Norton's PH3, personally.

    http://community.myfitnesspal.com/en/discussion/10332083/which-lifting-program-is-the-best-for-you/p1


    And, as Dom says, the day you entered the gym is the day you came forever small. ;)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNO2yxuzm04
  • Okiludy
    Okiludy Posts: 558 Member
    Mike Mathews "Bigger, Leaner, Stronger" is a decent book and program that is in the "powerbuilding" theme. It uses compound lifts as the main driver for size and is in the 4-6 rep range. This is to provide stimulus for both strength and hypertrophy. The book is decent and he is one very well built man. He tries to use science as much as possible but at times is a bit preachy to me. Still, the program would build a strong big body if followed and there is 3, 4, and 5 day splits depending on your schedule.

    "Far too many bodybuilders spend too much time exercising the smaller muscle groups at the expense of the larger muscle groups such as the thighs, and they wonder why it is they never make gains in overall size and strength." -Roy "Reg" Park
  • MrElculver2424
    MrElculver2424 Posts: 17 Member
    Thanks for all the help guys.

    I have an additional, separate question that I was wondering if anyone could help me with. You can't see it in that picture that I posted (that was a good week + a good camera filter), but I've battled chest, shoulder, and neck area acne for years. I took accutane twice and although it got rid of all of it initially, lately it has started to come back.

    I'm a big chocolate milk drinker...2 cups at every meal...but I began to see a correlation between the amount of milk I drank and my acne breakouts. This past week I decided to both take an off week from the gym AND cut out milk from my diet entirely. It's the end of the week and I haven't had any new breakouts this week, which is very rare for me. And my acne from previous weeks is clearing pretty fast to my surprise.

    I know there's no evidence that dairy causes acne at the core, but I've definitely read that for some people it can make it worse. I'm gonna try to go a little more without any milk and see if my skin remains clear. If so, it looks like I might want to cut milk from my diet, which means it will be harder to make mass gains.

    Anyone have any tips for keeping my protein and calorie intake up if I decide to cut milk out? I usually drink a lot...2 cups at every meal...that's like 6-8 cups a day (nearly over 700 calories and 50+ grams of protein)
  • justinfarmer919
    justinfarmer919 Posts: 37 Member
    edited November 2017
    Judging by what you eat a lack of protein is not helping... Seems like alot of carbs, alot of fats, minimal protein. You should focus on at least 160g protein, 500 carbs and 70 fat. roughly. focus on macro targets and not calories.
  • rainbowbow
    rainbowbow Posts: 7,490 Member
    edited November 2017
    MrElculver2424 wrote: »
    Thanks for all the help guys.

    I have an additional, separate question that I was wondering if anyone could help me with. You can't see it in that picture that I posted (that was a good week + a good camera filter), but I've battled chest, shoulder, and neck area acne for years. I took accutane twice and although it got rid of all of it initially, lately it has started to come back.

    I'm a big chocolate milk drinker...2 cups at every meal...but I began to see a correlation between the amount of milk I drank and my acne breakouts. This past week I decided to both take an off week from the gym AND cut out milk from my diet entirely. It's the end of the week and I haven't had any new breakouts this week, which is very rare for me. And my acne from previous weeks is clearing pretty fast to my surprise.

    I know there's no evidence that dairy causes acne at the core, but I've definitely read that for some people it can make it worse. I'm gonna try to go a little more without any milk and see if my skin remains clear. If so, it looks like I might want to cut milk from my diet, which means it will be harder to make mass gains.

    Anyone have any tips for keeping my protein and calorie intake up if I decide to cut milk out? I usually drink a lot...2 cups at every meal...that's like 6-8 cups a day (nearly over 700 calories and 50+ grams of protein)

    Switch to whey protein isolate which usually doesn't cause any of the issues that milk does for individuals with acne or digestive issues and start making shakes. I have several friends who can, no joke, drink a 70g protein and 1,500 calorie shake in about ten minutes.

    As to your original post, i'd say that you should switch your program to something more structured and with higher volume. I think you'd be a good candidate for PHAT but that's not the only option.

    In addition to your training, i'm going to say that since you're a hard gainer wanting the thiccness you should eat more than you have been. Again, i've got friends who had to eat 3-4k to start gaining.

    hope this helps
  • justinfarmer919
    justinfarmer919 Posts: 37 Member
    MrElculver2424 wrote: »
    Thanks for all the help guys.

    I have an additional, separate question that I was wondering if anyone could help me with. You can't see it in that picture that I posted (that was a good week + a good camera filter), but I've battled chest, shoulder, and neck area acne for years. I took accutane twice and although it got rid of all of it initially, lately it has started to come back.

    I'm a big chocolate milk drinker...2 cups at every meal...but I began to see a correlation between the amount of milk I drank and my acne breakouts. This past week I decided to both take an off week from the gym AND cut out milk from my diet entirely. It's the end of the week and I haven't had any new breakouts this week, which is very rare for me. And my acne from previous weeks is clearing pretty fast to my surprise.

    I know there's no evidence that dairy causes acne at the core, but I've definitely read that for some people it can make it worse. I'm gonna try to go a little more without any milk and see if my skin remains clear. If so, it looks like I might want to cut milk from my diet, which means it will be harder to make mass gains.

    Anyone have any tips for keeping my protein and calorie intake up if I decide to cut milk out? I usually drink a lot...2 cups at every meal...that's like 6-8 cups a day (nearly over 700 calories and 50+ grams of protein)

    https://scdlifestyle.com/2013/04/5-real-food-weight-gain-shakes-paleo-scd/
  • MrElculver2424
    MrElculver2424 Posts: 17 Member
    Thanks....I do drink 100% whey isolate shakes already, but I mix it with milk. I tried water once and hated the taste, but I guess maybe I'll have to try that. Or maybe I'll be OK with just one cup of white milk a day if it's mixed with a shake. I'll ease into it and figure it out.
  • quiksylver296
    quiksylver296 Posts: 28,439 Member
    MrElculver2424 wrote: »
    Thanks....I do drink 100% whey isolate shakes already, but I mix it with milk. I tried water once and hated the taste, but I guess maybe I'll have to try that. Or maybe I'll be OK with just one cup of white milk a day if it's mixed with a shake. I'll ease into it and figure it out.

    Almond milk?
  • TravisJHunt
    TravisJHunt Posts: 533 Member
    Stick with the big lifts, Squats, Bench Press, Deadlifts, Curls. Forget the fancy machines and use actual weights. Go with lower reps and make sure to lay off the cardio. But that's all already been said so good luck!
  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    MrElculver2424 wrote: »
    Thanks....I do drink 100% whey isolate shakes already, but I mix it with milk. I tried water once and hated the taste, but I guess maybe I'll have to try that. Or maybe I'll be OK with just one cup of white milk a day if it's mixed with a shake. I'll ease into it and figure it out.

    I have it blended with water and banana. Sometimes some berries too. I have a milk sensitivity so water for me. It works fine and the banana helps thicken it. I get no adverse reaction from the whey.
  • jseams1234
    jseams1234 Posts: 1,219 Member
    MrElculver2424 wrote: »
    Thanks....I do drink 100% whey isolate shakes already, but I mix it with milk. I tried water once and hated the taste, but I guess maybe I'll have to try that. Or maybe I'll be OK with just one cup of white milk a day if it's mixed with a shake. I'll ease into it and figure it out.

    I've ran out of milk and had to hold my nose and chug it down with water. It's doable. ;)

    The biggest thing you are going to miss by avoiding milk is the calories. You will need to find something else to fill in that gap.
  • canadianlbs
    canadianlbs Posts: 5,199 Member
    ^^^ i'm not compatible with some component of milk, although idk which. i don't like ice cream, haven't drunk a glass of plain straight-up milk for about 30 years, and i always go with the whey isolate.

    you may be different, but i find that yogurt's okay. so that's what i put in my shakes: whey isolate powder for sweetness, plain unflavoured yogurt for tang, and frozen fruit of some kind.
  • giantrobot_powerlifting
    giantrobot_powerlifting Posts: 2,598 Member
    You have abs. Eat more. Train, not exercise.
  • Packerjohn
    Packerjohn Posts: 4,855 Member
    edited November 2017
    MrElculver2424 wrote: »
    Thanks for all the help guys.

    I have an additional, separate question that I was wondering if anyone could help me with. You can't see it in that picture that I posted (that was a good week + a good camera filter), but I've battled chest, shoulder, and neck area acne for years. I took accutane twice and although it got rid of all of it initially, lately it has started to come back.

    I'm a big chocolate milk drinker...2 cups at every meal...but I began to see a correlation between the amount of milk I drank and my acne breakouts. This past week I decided to both take an off week from the gym AND cut out milk from my diet entirely. It's the end of the week and I haven't had any new breakouts this week, which is very rare for me. And my acne from previous weeks is clearing pretty fast to my surprise.

    I know there's no evidence that dairy causes acne at the core, but I've definitely read that for some people it can make it worse. I'm gonna try to go a little more without any milk and see if my skin remains clear. If so, it looks like I might want to cut milk from my diet, which means it will be harder to make mass gains.

    Anyone have any tips for keeping my protein and calorie intake up if I decide to cut milk out? I usually drink a lot...2 cups at every meal...that's like 6-8 cups a day (nearly over 700 calories and 50+ grams of protein)

    Surprised nobody else mentioned but the chocolate in the milk may be the issue with the acne:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4025515/

    From the article linked:
    "Conclusion: It appears that in acne-prone, male individuals, the consumption of chocolate correlates to an increase in the exacerbation of acne."
  • KarblessKreature
    KarblessKreature Posts: 52 Member
    Like others have said. Do the standard mass building movements, squats dead’s bench and chins. Go heavy and then rest(6-8 reps believe) Doesn’t sound like your getting enough sleep so I’d say your over training. Also you’ve been lifting for a few years it gets harder to gain unless your on top of the diet and rest. Your diet isn’t very good at all. Diet makes up 80-90%. Dial it in and the gains will come. Don’t forget the rest it’s when you grow.
  • misnomer1
    misnomer1 Posts: 646 Member
    edited November 2017
    trigden1991 wrote: »
    1)You look fine.
    2)You probably have some form of body dyamorphia like a lot of gym goers.
    3) if you’re not making the progress you think you should be then your training isn’t as great as you think

    This. Your issue is psychological.
  • Okiludy
    Okiludy Posts: 558 Member
    I have a small bit of lactose intolerance and have no issue with whey isolate and almond milk. It isn't as good as with real milk but close.

    I like a tablespoon or 2 of peanut butter, 12oz of almond milk, 2 servings of whey isolate, and a banana. The fruit and peanut butter add in calories and make it taste much better.
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