Elliptical for Marathon Training?

ehimass

Hi,

I'm a bigger guy, 6'0" 195 pounds 34 y/o and am trying to do a marathon in about 3 months. I'm trying to drop some weight for the race. My goal is to finish in 4 hours or less.

My issue is that if I really run a lot in a given week, I do start to get some soreness in my knees.

To compensate, I have been doing 34 minutes of elliptical workouts which average 145 bpm (80% max) followed by 2-5 miles of running on the treadmill 5x per week. Then, once per week, I will do a longer 8-10 mile run outisde and once every 3-4 weeks I'll up it to a 15-20 mile run.

My last long run was 18 miles in 2 hours 25 minutes (I felt like I could've done the 26 on it if I wanted to, but there was some knee/calf soreness happening and I've read you shouldn't go over 20 in training anyway, so I stopped).

This all works out to about 20 miles per week of running combined with about 180 minutes of 80% heart rate elliptical.

Do you think it is OK to supplement my running this way? I have looked at the normal marathon programs but feel like I'll just injure myself if I stick to them at this weight. Obviously it would be better if I could be about 170 pounds.

TavistockToad

20 miles per week is very very light for a full.

Your issue is that you're not doing enough miles in the week to support the weekend long run.

I would see a physio to pin point what your knee problem is and try and fix it. Often it's due to muscular imbalance higher up.

bendyourkneekatie

I use an elliptical to supplement my running both when I'm training and not. My problem is feet issues, if I do too much back to back running the impact can screw me up.

My week is Monday off, Tuesday 5km/3 mile interval training on the treadmill followed by 90 minutes on the elliptical, Wednesday 16km/10 mile run, Thursday 100 minutes on the elliptical, Friday 16km/10 mile run, Saturday 100 minutes on the elliptical, Sunday long run, varying from 20-36km (12-22 miles) depending if I'm training and if so where I am in the training plan.

I work hard on the elliptical and probably do more than I strictly need because it's my only chance to "relax" and listen to some podcasts (and next year I'll be using that time to listen to lectures once I'm back to study, as I'm a sahm with dreams of a career) kidfree.

Once I'm done with my next marathon I'm planning to try to slowly add more back to back days. I'm not happy with my current weekly mileage and feel it's what's keeping me from breaking 3:30, and my lack of speedwork is what's keeping me from getting under 95 for a half.

I guess what I'm saying is in my experience the elliptical can definitely help keep up and even improve cardio fitness and be used as part of a marathon plan. It does absolutely nothing for your legs though, and that is 100% my weakness, and with your even lower mileage, may be your biggest problem, and possibly lead to a miserable marathon.

Have you done any halves? Or other distance races?

ehimass

bendyourkneekatie wrote: »

Have you done any halves? Or other distance races?

Yeah I did the half version of the race I'm planning to do 2 years ago and finished in 1:38. I don't recall any major soreness after, but I was about 10 pounds lighter than my current weight.

So what I'm getting is that I should up the mileage to 30 mi/wk or so and see what happens. I'll probably keep doing the elliptical to help with conditioning and weight loss though. Should be easy enough to do 4mi trdml + elliptical 5x weekly then a 10+ mile run on the weekend.

lporter229

It sounds like you have a pretty solid aerobic base and I think cross training on the elliptical is a great option, particularly if you are prone to injury. However, the whole point of cross training is for all of those muscles and tendons used specifically for running to be given a chance to heal. If you are running on the treadmill every day, this isn't really happening. Perhaps you might want to consider devoting several days per week solely to the elliptical and then running longer (5-10 miles) runs on alternate days. This will give you better endurance for your running muscles while also allowing them the opportunity to rest and repair on your non-running days. Just a suggestion.

BTW, if you felt very solid after 18 miles in 145 minutes, I think you should have no problem running a sub 4 hour marathon.

DX2JX2

Nothing wrong with using the elliptical to supplement your cardio base but my main concern is the physical limitation on mileage when actually running. To a large extent marathon training is necessary to build the physical ability to actually complete the task. It's less about the cardio; many runners have the cardio vascular conditioning to complete any race they want but they lack the legs to actually do it. 20 miles per week is pretty low to get yourself there.

Can you move some of the treadmill runs outside? The treadmill is good but it's not quite the same as outdoor running due to belt assistance/lack of wind resistance (can be compensated for via incline), and due to the fact that the machine absorbs some of the landing impact.

Calf soreness alone could be due to the fact that you don't yet have the muscle development to reach the goal mileage. Knee soreness points towards an issue with your joints...either a condition inherent in your body, or due to an issue with your stride (too much stress on your knees). Since you have both together, your muscle development probably isn't the issue. Whatever is causing your knee pain is triggering your calf pain as well.

When was the last time you updated your shoes? Are you aware if you are overstriding? What cadence are you maintaining on your runs?

spiriteagle99

Running is a high impact activity that stresses the muscles, tendons and joints. By using the elliptical, you are putting less stress on the body, which is good in terms of avoiding injury, but bad in terms of getting the body ready for the stresses of a long race.

With your low average weekly mileage, you are not likely to be able to complete the marathon at the pace you should be capable of doing based on your HM time. OTOH, you will probably be able to finish it.

I have a friend with badly arthritic knees who runs a couple of marathons every year. She used to do a lot of her training in the pool, doing weighted pool runs. She would do 2 or 3 hours of pool running each week and did the rest of her miles outside. Including the pool runs, she ran 40-50 mpw. She was able to complete her races, but slowly. When she moved and no longer had access to a pool, her paces improved, a lot. She minimizes stress on her body by doing a lot of runs on sand or dirt.

I suggest you work on getting your knee issues under control. Find out what is causing the pain. You may be able to do PT to fix the weakness that is causing the pain. It may be simply a matter of taping the knee to keep the patella in place until you build more strength. Run more, preferably on soft surfaces like dirt or sand.

lorrpb

Elliptical will help build your overall cardio capacity, but it won't do a thing for acclimating your joints and connective tissue for a marathon. Eating in a calorie deficit while training for a major endurance event is likely to be counterproductive to your training. Given your joint issues, I'd think about this long and hard, if it's the best thing for your body at this point.

Lean59man

lonestarwings wrote: »

Hi,

I'm a bigger guy, 6'0" 195 pounds 34 y/o and am trying to do a marathon in about 3 months. I'm trying to drop some weight for the race. My goal is to finish in 4 hours or less.

My issue is that if I really run a lot in a given week, I do start to get some soreness in my knees.

To compensate, I have been doing 34 minutes of elliptical workouts which average 145 bpm (80% max) followed by 2-5 miles of running on the treadmill 5x per week. Then, once per week, I will do a longer 8-10 mile run outisde and once every 3-4 weeks I'll up it to a 15-20 mile run.

My last long run was 18 miles in 2 hours 25 minutes (I felt like I could've done the 26 on it if I wanted to, but there was some knee/calf soreness happening and I've read you shouldn't go over 20 in training anyway, so I stopped).

This all works out to about 20 miles per week of running combined with about 180 minutes of 80% heart rate elliptical.

Do you think it is OK to supplement my running this way? I have looked at the normal marathon programs but feel like I'll just injure myself if I stick to them at this weight. Obviously it would be better if I could be about 170 pounds.

Your body is trying to tell you something with the sore knees.

It's saying: "You are hurting me. Please stop."

If you continue with your quest to run marathons you will mess yourself up and end up at the orthopedic surgeon.

Think about how how important running a marathon is to you and if it's really worth it.

If it is then keep pounding away and taking your NSAIDs.

BrianSharpe

Your weekly mileage is too low and the elliptical won't get you across the finish line.

I'm with TavistockToad, your first priority should be to pinpoint the discomfort in your knees. It could be inappropriate / worn footwear. It could be weak hips/glutes (you didn't mention doing any strength training). Until you deal with that almost everything else is moot as you'll most likely find yourself sidelined by injury.

MeanderingMammal

lonestarwings wrote: »

Hi,

I'm a bigger guy, 6'0" 195 pounds 34 y/o and am trying to do a marathon in about 3 months. I'm trying to drop some weight for the race. My goal is to finish in 4 hours or less.

My issue is that if I really run a lot in a given week, I do start to get some soreness in my knees.

To compensate, I have been doing 34 minutes of elliptical workouts which average 145 bpm (80% max) followed by 2-5 miles of running on the treadmill 5x per week. Then, once per week, I will do a longer 8-10 mile run outisde and once every 3-4 weeks I'll up it to a 15-20 mile run.

My last long run was 18 miles in 2 hours 25 minutes (I felt like I could've done the 26 on it if I wanted to, but there was some knee/calf soreness happening and I've read you shouldn't go over 20 in training anyway, so I stopped).

This all works out to about 20 miles per week of running combined with about 180 minutes of 80% heart rate elliptical.

Do you think it is OK to supplement my running this way? I have looked at the normal marathon programs but feel like I'll just injure myself if I stick to them at this weight. Obviously it would be better if I could be about 170 pounds.

I'd address the running form issues that are leading to the leg pain. Your weekly mileage is barely entry level to a half marathon plan, never mind a marathon plan.

The issues around connective tissue development are articulated upthread.

ehimass

I still have 3 months in which to up the mileage. I'm doing 25 this week and will work it up to 30/wk by the end of november. Thanks for the discouragement everyone! Please delete thread and ban user, lol.

MeanderingMammal

lonestarwings wrote: »

I still have 3 months in which to up the mileage. I'm doing 25 this week and will work it up to 30/wk by the end of november. Thanks for the discouragement everyone! Please delete thread and ban user, lol.

If all your wanted was uncritical validation you should have said

I'm sure a non runner will be asking shortly with " you can do dis... Ignore da haterz..."

TavistockToad

lonestarwings wrote: »

I still have 3 months in which to up the mileage. I'm doing 25 this week and will work it up to 30/wk by the end of november. Thanks for the discouragement everyone! Please delete thread and ban user, lol.

You only have 2 months really as you should be tapering for half of the last month...

There are loads of really experienced runners on here, who have given you great advice. Just because it's not what you wanted to hear, doesn't make it wrong, or actually discouraging. hopefully eventually you'll take notice of it.

collectingblues

lonestarwings wrote: »

I still have 3 months in which to up the mileage. I'm doing 25 this week and will work it up to 30/wk by the end of november. Thanks for the discouragement everyone! Please delete thread and ban user, lol.

I know it's not what you want to hear, but 30 MPW really isn't adequate for a marathon. If you want to run a marathon, get off the elliptical and actually, you know, run.

If it hurts, see a physiotherapist or a sports med doc and find out why.

But don't fool yourself into thinking that being able to go far on an elliptical means that you're actually going to be able to run a marathon comfortably.

stanmann571

MeanderingMammal wrote: »

lonestarwings wrote: »

I still have 3 months in which to up the mileage. I'm doing 25 this week and will work it up to 30/wk by the end of november. Thanks for the discouragement everyone! Please delete thread and ban user, lol.

If all your wanted was uncritical validation you should have said

I'm sure a non runner will be asking shortly with " you can do dis... Ignore da haterz..."

MM and I often butt heads because we have different perspectives and experience, but when it comes time for me to do a marathon in a year or two, I'm going to go back and read every single post MM has made.