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Update: Gym, StrongLifts 5x5, and Overhand/Underhand DeadLifts

LiftHeavyThings27105LiftHeavyThings27105 Member Posts: 2,104 Member Member Posts: 2,104 Member
Morning my fitness friends! I hope that everyone survived the "Fall Back" clock set. HA! HA!

So, I am FINALLY back in the gym. I am sooooooo excited about it. I am doing the StrongLifts 5x5 Program and have finished the first week. Is it optimal? Likely not. But, I have NEVER in my 50 years started a program, yet alone finished one. So, doing this one. For the experience. Not really too worried about it not being optimal or not. I picked it, I started it and I am going to finish it.

And, for those who might remember the conversation several weeks ago about grip strength and dead lifts, I was someone adamant about not ever trying overhand/underhand with Dead Lifts. Well, I revisited that and guess what? I actually did my Dead Lifts with an Overhand/Underhand grip. I am going to move forward with this. Now, at this point, the Dead Lifts are really light....145lbs. But, even better to start with something new where the weight is something that I can likely do one-handed. The jury is still out. I will have Dead Lifts twice this coming week...the weight will go up a bit more. So, interested in how this continue. Looking forward to that journey.

Anyway, just a little update. No real question.

Replies

  • DancingMoosieDancingMoosie Member Posts: 7,572 Member Member Posts: 7,572 Member
    Why is this program not optimal? And if you really believe it isn't, then why choose it in the first place. I really like 5x5. I have modified it a bit through the years and added some accessories.
  • ChieflrgChieflrg Member Posts: 8,999 Member Member Posts: 8,999 Member
    Why is this program not optimal? And if you really believe it isn't, then why choose it in the first place. I really like 5x5. I have modified it a bit through the years and added some accessories.

    Because it takes much longer to gain strength than a program such as Starting Strength. Most lifters prefer to run a strength program until their lifts stall to the point where more complexed programing is needed. A novice program such as Starting Strength can be completed in a few months and Stronglifts takes a bit longer. Either way doing a novice program beyond its limits of novice linear progression isn't recommended.

    Much of Stronglifts suboptimal label has to do with the volume programed being higher than necessary for novices. It doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that there are better choices in general.

    OP understands this at least to some degree and is okay with it, so good luck to OP :).
    edited November 2017
  • misnomer1misnomer1 Member Posts: 648 Member Member Posts: 648 Member
    Morning my fitness friends! I hope that everyone survived the "Fall Back" clock set. HA! HA!

    So, I am FINALLY back in the gym. I am sooooooo excited about it. I am doing the StrongLifts 5x5 Program and have finished the first week. Is it optimal? Likely not. But, I have NEVER in my 50 years started a program, yet alone finished one. So, doing this one. For the experience. Not really too worried about it not being optimal or not. I picked it, I started it and I am going to finish it.

    And, for those who might remember the conversation several weeks ago about grip strength and dead lifts, I was someone adamant about not ever trying overhand/underhand with Dead Lifts. Well, I revisited that and guess what? I actually did my Dead Lifts with an Overhand/Underhand grip. I am going to move forward with this. Now, at this point, the Dead Lifts are really light....145lbs. But, even better to start with something new where the weight is something that I can likely do one-handed. The jury is still out. I will have Dead Lifts twice this coming week...the weight will go up a bit more. So, interested in how this continue. Looking forward to that journey.

    Anyway, just a little update. No real question.

    Why not do mixed grip deadlift only when your double overhand grip starts failing at a higher weight?
  • misnomer1misnomer1 Member Posts: 648 Member Member Posts: 648 Member
    Chieflrg wrote: »
    Why is this program not optimal? And if you really believe it isn't, then why choose it in the first place. I really like 5x5. I have modified it a bit through the years and added some accessories.

    Because it takes much longer to gain strength than a program such as Starting Strength. Most lifters prefer to run a strength program until their lifts stall to the point where more complexed programing is needed. A novice program such as Starting Strength can be completed in a few months and Stronglifts takes a bit longer. Either way doing a novice program beyond its limits of novice linear progression isn't recommended.

    Much of Stronglifts suboptimal label has to do with the volume programed being higher than necessary for novices. It doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that there are better choices in general.

    OP understands this at least to some degree and is okay with it, so good luck to OP :).

    So in your opinion will i gain strength faster if i stick to Stronglifts compound exercises but switch to 3x5 instead of 5x5?
    edited November 2017
  • LiftHeavyThings27105LiftHeavyThings27105 Member Posts: 2,104 Member Member Posts: 2,104 Member
    So, I am glad that I posted this. Most of this was out of excitement (FINALLY in the gym.....after three very long months). I hope that others are able to gain insight from the good questions being asked in response to my post.

    @DancingMoosie - So, that is a very good and logical question. Why in the world would anyone do something IF they know that it is sub-optimal? There is not likely a good answer to that question - normally speaking. But, here is mine - I want to run through a couple of programs (programs that are somewhat popular) and just see how things work out (for me). I also want to actually start and finish a program. Plan and simple.

    So, those two points (go through some 'popular' programs and start | complete a program) are far more important to me - right now, at this point in time - than anything else. So, totally understand your question. Good question.

    @misnomer1 - Good question. I see that lots and lots of people do that (standard grip to a certain weight and then switch to mixed grip). I am just going to play with this method (mixed grip) for awhile. I am somewhat new to dead lifts and just playing with things right now. Looking to see what works for me. I figure that it might not be a bad idea to start this at the lower weights....become comfortable with it so that when the weights get around 285lbs (that is where things start to be a problem for me with respect to grip strength) I have some experience with it. Or, in this case, with both! So, good question there. Just a personal "preference" at this point (well, as long as we define 'preference' by 'experimentation' at this point).

    So, am I being logical with all of this? Not really. To be honest. At this point, running through a couple of programs and 'playing' with different things are at the top of my list. I am also likely going to do Sumo Dead Lifts with the next program that I run!

    Folks, I do this stuff because I am at home in the gym. I really love it there. So, at this point I am experimenting with some things....things that most of you have already done, but things that I have never done. So, things will sound a little bit "off" from me when I post things about what I am doing. :smiley:
  • watts6151watts6151 Member, Premium Posts: 828 Member Member, Premium Posts: 828 Member
    So, I am glad that I posted this. Most of this was out of excitement (FINALLY in the gym.....after three very long months). I hope that others are able to gain insight from the good questions being asked in response to my post.

    @DancingMoosie - So, that is a very good and logical question. Why in the world would anyone do something IF they know that it is sub-optimal? There is not likely a good answer to that question - normally speaking. But, here is mine - I want to run through a couple of programs (programs that are somewhat popular) and just see how things work out (for me). I also want to actually start and finish a program. Plan and simple.

    So, those two points (go through some 'popular' programs and start | complete a program) are far more important to me - right now, at this point in time - than anything else. So, totally understand your question. Good question.

    @misnomer1 - Good question. I see that lots and lots of people do that (standard grip to a certain weight and then switch to mixed grip). I am just going to play with this method (mixed grip) for awhile. I am somewhat new to dead lifts and just playing with things right now. Looking to see what works for me. I figure that it might not be a bad idea to start this at the lower weights....become comfortable with it so that when the weights get around 285lbs (that is where things start to be a problem for me with respect to grip strength) I have some experience with it. Or, in this case, with both! So, good question there. Just a personal "preference" at this point (well, as long as we define 'preference' by 'experimentation' at this point).

    So, am I being logical with all of this? Not really. To be honest. At this point, running through a couple of programs and 'playing' with different things are at the top of my list. I am also likely going to do Sumo Dead Lifts with the next program that I run!

    Folks, I do this stuff because I am at home in the gym. I really love it there. So, at this point I am experimenting with some things....things that most of you have already done, but things that I have never done. So, things will sound a little bit "off" from me when I post things about what I am doing. :smiley:

    The gym is a hobbie for most and should be
    Enjoyable, have fun playing and adapting routines to see what works best for you.
    Experiment with different grips. It would get boring and monotonous if you didn’t
  • ChieflrgChieflrg Member Posts: 8,999 Member Member Posts: 8,999 Member
    misnomer1 wrote: »
    Chieflrg wrote: »
    Why is this program not optimal? And if you really believe it isn't, then why choose it in the first place. I really like 5x5. I have modified it a bit through the years and added some accessories.

    Because it takes much longer to gain strength than a program such as Starting Strength. Most lifters prefer to run a strength program until their lifts stall to the point where more complexed programing is needed. A novice program such as Starting Strength can be completed in a few months and Stronglifts takes a bit longer. Either way doing a novice program beyond its limits of novice linear progression isn't recommended.

    Much of Stronglifts suboptimal label has to do with the volume programed being higher than necessary for novices. It doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that there are better choices in general.

    OP understands this at least to some degree and is okay with it, so good luck to OP :).

    So in your opinion will i gain strength faster if i stick to Stronglifts compound exercises but switch to 3x5 instead of 5x5?

    Yes, with the 3×5 you will run out your novice progression for each lift at a higher weight before stalling, therefore you will become stronger quicker than 5×5.

    This also means you will be more efficient with your time spent lifting as well.
  • misnomer1misnomer1 Member Posts: 648 Member Member Posts: 648 Member
    Chieflrg wrote: »
    misnomer1 wrote: »
    Chieflrg wrote: »
    Why is this program not optimal? And if you really believe it isn't, then why choose it in the first place. I really like 5x5. I have modified it a bit through the years and added some accessories.

    Because it takes much longer to gain strength than a program such as Starting Strength. Most lifters prefer to run a strength program until their lifts stall to the point where more complexed programing is needed. A novice program such as Starting Strength can be completed in a few months and Stronglifts takes a bit longer. Either way doing a novice program beyond its limits of novice linear progression isn't recommended.

    Much of Stronglifts suboptimal label has to do with the volume programed being higher than necessary for novices. It doesn't mean it doesn't work, just that there are better choices in general.

    OP understands this at least to some degree and is okay with it, so good luck to OP :).

    So in your opinion will i gain strength faster if i stick to Stronglifts compound exercises but switch to 3x5 instead of 5x5?

    Yes, with the 3×5 you will run out your novice progression for each lift at a higher weight before stalling, therefore you will become stronger quicker than 5×5.

    This also means you will be more efficient with your time spent lifting as well.

    Ok thanks. Sl5x5 takes a lot of time for me nowadays. Maybe i will switch to 3x5.
  • heybalesheybales Member Posts: 19,176 Member Member Posts: 19,176 Member
    I've normally read because of the very potential issues it can cause with body balance with shoulders - you do not use the reversed grip until you absolutely need it.
    In other words it's normally said not to use it on the warmup lifts.
    That would include attempting to train to it also while progressing up to more difficult weights.

    Oh - if really starting out that easy and doesn't feel like a workout - run it everyday back to back until first time actually sore and need a day recovery, then to the normal every other day.

    Just a thought if truly under a good working weight by decent amount.
  • OkiludyOkiludy Member Posts: 564 Member Member Posts: 564 Member
    Chieflrg wrote: »
    Yes, with the 3×5 you will run out your novice progression for each lift at a higher weight before stalling, therefore you will become stronger quicker than 5×5.

    This also means you will be more efficient with your time spent lifting as well.

    I agree with this from personal experience. I seem to respond and recover better from intensity rather than volume and that does influence my opinion.
  • canadianlbscanadianlbs Member Posts: 5,202 Member Member Posts: 5,202 Member
    Folks, I do this stuff because I am at home in the gym. I really love it there.

    i can relate to this. just so you know though . . . you don't really 'finish' stronglifts [or most programmes] in any definitive way. you just do them until you outgrow their usefulness for your own personal self. then you find something else and you switch.

    the good news is, by the time you get there you usually know enough to find the selection of the next thing much easier. for grip while you're in the current experimental and having-fun phase, you might want to look into carries. i spend a lot of time dabbling around in the minors as well :wink: not because i'm not doing a major programme, but because i enjoy it and i enjoy the gym.
  • misnomer1misnomer1 Member Posts: 648 Member Member Posts: 648 Member
    you could also try hook grip for fun. i tried it once, though it was no fun at all.
    edited November 2017
  • LiftHeavyThings27105LiftHeavyThings27105 Member Posts: 2,104 Member Member Posts: 2,104 Member
    Hey, y'all! So, much thanks for the input.....

    @heybales - very much aware of that point. But, thanks for the insight. I am swapping hands each work out (so, one DL workout I do left hand forward and then the next DL workout I do right hand forward and so on....) so that I do not build funny. As mentioned, just playing with this grip (but will likely keep it) to get comfortable with it so that when I do need it (+285lbs or so) I am confident with it. But, yes - very aware of that potential issue.

    @misnomer1 - Thank you, but a big NO THANK YOU! I played with that once - just with 135lbs on the bar - and did not like it one bit. I can't even image the pressure with twice that weight and up! I guess if I were into pain then that might be okay...I kinda like my thumbs attached to my hands....not hanging from a bar! LOL!

    @canadianlbs - Yep! Fully aware of that. But, again, thanks! I am just messing with a program right now, as stated. I will likely do it for the 12 week program and then move to something else. I have been lifting weights for decades but have always done my own thing and am pretty new to Squats and Dead Lifts. So, looking at programs that have a strong emphasis there. So, putting ego aside and running a popular program (and then another and another). With that (running a few programs) being the main focus.

    Now, I am also prepping for a power lifting competition in March, 2018. So, is this the smartest thing in the world to be doing? Decidedly not. But, that is okay. I am one who adapts and responds well to the training. My main focus is to get some real programs under my belt, do this competition in the end of March (in Denver, NC) and then maybe "play" with another program or two and then start REALLY focusing on the Power Lifting training.

    Sure - I am super competitive! But I can compartmentalize things well and can be okay with knowing that this first competition is going to be more for the experience of the competition than actually "doing well" (I am a bit different....I look at success and failure in a different light from most) and I am putting more importance on long-term experience and knowledge. So, I am totally fine with not being the "best" me at this competition SO LONG AS the reasons why are - long term - a good thing. And, for me, they are. Eyes wide open on this.

    So, it likely looks like I am a bit scattered brain and chasing different, mostly conflicting goals. So, yes - I am! But well aware of that and I am okay with that....for the long term experience and knowledge.

    And, I really really really want to "finish" a program. More for the experience (so that I know from first hand experience and so that I can offer sound advice on them).


    Thank you, everyone, for all your input. Keep it coming! Hopefully others can learn a few new things....
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