cars using 'bike' roads under winter conditions

canadianlbs

this is one of my every-winter mental struggles, so interested in thoughts from other people who ride all year round, or try to.

my city has a great network of 'designated' bike roads, which doesn't mean cars can't use them. and my city also has a lot to be proud of in terms of driver responsibility and awareness wrt cycling. so most of the year for me, no problems. we share the 'communal' roads and i've rarely ever had any aggravation on them. i can't think of a better commendation of my city's drivers than the fact that even when a bike path runs right alongside a major rush-hour congestion path, we get very little 'sidestep' traffic.

come winter though . . . different story. if i had to guess, it seems like city hall clears the main traffic arteries first. then right behind that, they 'do' the bike roads. my rage is with the way as soon as we get some snow, a whole cohort of these normally-considerate drivers suddenly decide to enable their selfishness chip. i have been riding year-round most years for over a decade, adn the traffic uptick from cars is dramatic and obvious the moment it snows.

i have tried telling myself that it's not my business, that the roads are technically 'for' both populations, that it's not the end of the world. i've even tried telling myself the cars do me a favour by 'working' the road a little and leaving tracks for my bike to follow. but it does enrage me.

under snow conditions here, the main roads are dangerous for anyone on a bike - especially when they've been groomed. the slop and snot that ploughs leave behind in the cyclist's channel are a serious hazard. so as a cyclist i feel my options are basically restricted to the bike roads. i feel too that i'm being considerate of everyone by segregating myself so that any sudden skid or ice-chunk buried in a big puddle of chop is not going to put me under somebody's wheels.

so it's really embittering to find that cars do the opposite of segregation when the conditions most call for it. instead of staying even further away from any winter cyclists, they congregate in the bike roards. so i'm actually more endangered in 'my' space by this influx of cars. it's really hard to stay cool about when i know from year-round experience that this aberrant behaviour is exactly that: an aberration. and the drivers are deliberately choosing the bike paths because they are bike paths and will therefore be 'better' . . . for them.

would like to know what others think.

Unknown

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peleroja

I think that if your city doesn't have dedicated bike lanes you can't really criticize drivers who use the shared-use roads, honestly.

I mean, I get it. I am riding my first winter right now and am extremely careful to stay away from cars, but I also can't really fault people for using roads everyone is equally entitled to even if there is another option.

I note that since it snowed, people in my city seem to be way nicer to me on my bike than ever before, presumably because it probably looks like a pretty miserable time when you're sitting in your warm car.

NorthCascades

I'm not sure I understand. Your city has a network of low traffic residential streets that have been designated as bike routes. Most of the year they're pretty empty but in winter, more people drive on them. This is causing you problems because you're at more risk of an accident with cars nearby? Is that right? What does it mean for a road to be groomed?

rsclause

If the bike lane markings are painted on the pavement and covered by snow may be a contributing factor.

snowflake954

Move south.

peleroja

NorthCascades wrote: »

I'm not sure I understand. Your city has a network of low traffic residential streets that have been designated as bike routes. Most of the year they're pretty empty but in winter, more people drive on them. This is causing you problems because you're at more risk of an accident with cars nearby? Is that right? What does it mean for a road to be groomed?

"Groomed" = plowed/bladed/salted/sanded/sprayed/whatever else your particular city does as its snow management plan. Whatever they do to get the snow off the drive lanes and into windrows or trucks or piles.

(ETA: This is what my city does, which thankfully includes bike lanes.)

lemurcat12

peleroja wrote: »

I think that if your city doesn't have dedicated bike lanes you can't really criticize drivers who use the shared-use roads, honestly.

This is my knee-jerk impression, although I'm not sure I understand well enough so could revise this view.

I'm also wondering about the idea that the drivers are being selfish -- is it possible more drive when it's snowy so the uptick in traffic is on both roads? Also, I would imagine that traffic is worse/slower with snow so more incentive to take alternative routes.

Here it's a bike lane system, for the most part.

mph323

If the road is multi-use and not an actual dedicated bike path, I don't see where drivers are doing anything wrong by choosing to go a less crowded route. I agree more traffic means more risk to cyclists, especially in winter, but I don't see where "selfishness" enters into it. To a driver, a road is a road, and from their point of view, the less busy road is safer for their commute.

eta: Could local cyclists petition the city to close the road to cars during winter months, or at least on snow days?

canadianlbs

'grooming' means ploughing the snow and/or laying brine/sand/salt on a consistent basis. what that means in day-to-day terms is after an overnight fall the main roads and bike roads are both in a similar kind of state. the actual conditions can vary a lot though. it could be an inch or two of new snow on top of bare ground, or it could be pre-existing snow that has had salt and/or sand added on top of it.

i should add too that the bike roads are all single-lane width.

NorthCascades wrote: »

This is causing you problems because you're at more risk of an accident with cars nearby?

sort of? i think it's a combination of several factors. snow and ice always elevate risk, and even with studs mounted it's a pretty sweaty, erratic kind of ride. lots of fishtailing, lots of loopy tracks where one wheel or the other just took over and you have to go with it or dump yourself off. we get very messy, slippery snow most of the time when it snows, and it's hard to go more than three or four blocks anywhere here without coming to a gradient. so i lose the rear wheel and have to put at least one foot down, can need extra space to get up a hill, can get stuck, can find myself angling the bike slightly at the top of a rise and preparing to just side-skid all the way down . . . it's more like what i think snowboarding is probably like, so you need a ton of lateral space and room for all kinds of unpredictable bike behaviour, compared with bare road. you also get 'trapped' in car tracks where it takes a bit of strategy to angle just right in order to break out of them.

and you need to ride more like a tank. mostly in a straight line, mostly with a consistent speed. moving over to make space for cars is not easy. so bike roads are the only place where i can take the middle of the road and just chug. soon as a car comes along going the opposite way i have to break that up and re-start. if there's a gradient involved in either direction, the risk that they are not going to stay in control is high too. so that's a park-and-wait at the side and hope they don't slide into me. and then all the logistics and effort of getting underway again afterwards.

i'm pretty mellow about it when it's only a now-and-then car. but honestly, when i set out to ride to work and i i'm trailing a string of impatient motorists behind me most of the way - people i have to worry might be too close or might not know how snow works or might have no idea what would happen if i went suddenly sideways in front of them - it's a thing. or if i have to be doing that move-to-the-side-and-dismount manoeuver at least once per block of the whole ride . . . i get territorial. and really pissed.

canadianlbs

peleroja wrote: »

I think that if your city doesn't have dedicated bike lanes you can't really criticize drivers who use the shared-use roads, honestly.

i know . . . and i try to tell myself that. all ride long, and repeatedly. we do have bike 'lanes' on many of hte main roads - but they're not physically separated. just that painted-lane thing.

and i have a feeling very few drivers understand that those main-road lanes are exactly where all the snow goes when the main roads are ploughed. so a part of cyclist's own infrastructure gets buried when we have snow, and they may not be aware that our own options have shrunk.

i guess it's like the rider's equivalent of that personal-space thing in the gym. 'if you have all! the! treadmills! to choose from, WHY do you have to come run next to me?' it's a problem just because it feels uneasy whenever you're calling on a 'soft' version of a social rule . . . you're less clear where the real boundaries are.

I note that since it snowed, people in my city seem to be way nicer to me on my bike than ever before.

i see this too - for the first two or three days. people here are more than just kind about how they imagine biking must feel. everyone's terrified of the snow. we just don't get enough of it for people to feel differently.

but. that only lasts for a couple of days. if the snow persists long enough to be a nuisance instead of an Exciting New Thing, then the collaborative spirit wears off and people start getting entitled and aggro instead.

mph323

canadianlbs wrote: »

'grooming' means ploughing the snow and/or laying brine/sand/salt on a consistent basis. what that means in day-to-day terms is after an overnight fall the main roads and bike roads are both in a similar kind of state. the actual conditions can vary a lot though. it could be an inch or two of new snow on top of bare ground, or it could be pre-existing snow that has had salt and/or sand added on top of it.

i should add too that the bike roads are all single-lane width.

NorthCascades wrote: »

This is causing you problems because you're at more risk of an accident with cars nearby?

sort of? i think it's a combination of several factors. snow and ice always elevate risk, and even with studs mounted it's a pretty sweaty, erratic kind of ride. lots of fishtailing, lots of loopy tracks where one wheel or the other just took over and you have to go with it or dump yourself off. we get very messy, slippery snow most of the time when it snows, and it's hard to go more than three or four blocks anywhere here without coming to a gradient. so i lose the rear wheel and have to put at least one foot down, can need extra space to get up a hill, can get stuck, can find myself angling the bike slightly at the top of a rise and preparing to just side-skid all the way down . . . it's more like what i think snowboarding is probably like, so you need a ton of lateral space and room for all kinds of unpredictable bike behaviour, compared with bare road. you also get 'trapped' in car tracks where it takes a bit of strategy to angle just right in order to break out of them.

and you need to ride more like a tank. mostly in a straight line, mostly with a consistent speed. moving over to make space for cars is not easy. so bike roads are the only place where i can take the middle of the road and just chug. soon as a car comes along going the opposite way i have to break that up and re-start. if there's a gradient involved in either direction, the risk that they are not going to stay in control is high too. so that's a park-and-wait at the side and hope they don't slide into me. and then all the logistics and effort of getting underway again afterwards.

i'm pretty mellow about it when it's only a now-and-then car. but honestly, when i set out to ride to work and i i'm trailing a string of impatient motorists behind me most of the way - people i have to worry might be too close or might not know how snow works or might have no idea what would happen if i went suddenly sideways in front of them - it's a thing. or if i have to be doing that move-to-the-side-and-dismount manoeuver at least once per block of the whole ride . . . i get territorial. and really pissed.

Geez, what a nightmare! If this situation has already been brought to the city's attention I sincerely hope they're not waiting for a fatality before trying to come up with a mitigation plan.

As far as the cars go, I have to say my experience here in CA is that half the drivers on the road turn into morons in a routine winter storm. I can't even imagine what happens when it snows

canadianlbs

lemurcat12 wrote: »

I'm also wondering about the idea that the drivers are being selfish -- is it possible more drive when it's snowy so the uptick in traffic is on both roads? Also, I would imagine that traffic is worse/slower with snow so more incentive to take alternative routes.

a lot of my anger is exactly this - the bold part. not sure that more people drive, but the slower traffic factor for sure. so that makes it 'another fifteen minutes added a commute that everybody is dealing with - but i'm different and special and shouldn't have to, so i'll just drive the bike path where nobody goes'. i don't think it can be explained by people not seeing the painted bike symbol. obviously people know and respect the bike roads throughout most of the rest of the year. so, what? along with the snow we're suddenly getting a huge dump of brand-new residents who need the city to draw them a picture in order to know? and yet somehow they're all magically, coincidentally picking this side-street out of all the options, to take their cars on? people know.

it MAY be explained by an assumption that 'no-one' would ride on such days, i suppose. so from a driver's perspective i guess i can force myself to see a mindset of 'all that city budget going to clear a road no-one will use' . . . but it's a major effort of charity on my part. and it's somewhat undermined by the unusual amount of anger i get from those same drivers, once the novelty of the snow has worn off. they resent me even being there, some of them.

i am 'guilty' of playing the 'i'll condition you out of the idea this will speed up your commute' card on them drive the bike road? fine, it's your right. but you'll be driving it at three or four miles an hour, if that's what the road's like for me. and yes - the aggro level goes up.

cmriverside

I will say the standard Serenity Prayer would help.

That and taking the bus on those days? I dunno, if I knew it was going to be an issue and I couldn't "let it go," I'd start organizing ride-shares/friends etc. for those days. There has to be another way. I can't even imagine riding a bike in snow conditions unless it was a dedicated trail.

lemurcat12

canadianlbs wrote: »

lemurcat12 wrote: »

I'm also wondering about the idea that the drivers are being selfish -- is it possible more drive when it's snowy so the uptick in traffic is on both roads? Also, I would imagine that traffic is worse/slower with snow so more incentive to take alternative routes.

a lot of my anger is exactly this - the bold part. not sure that more people drive, but the slower traffic factor for sure. so that makes it 'another fifteen minutes added a commute that everybody is dealing with - but i'm different and special and shouldn't have to, so i'll just drive the bike path where nobody goes'. i don't think it can be explained by people not seeing the painted bike symbol. obviously people know and respect the bike roads throughout most of the rest of the year.

See, this would make sense if cars taking the bike lane were discouraged, but from what you've said before it's a shared road. Most likely people took the faster roads without snow and if these roads are faster compared to the others when it snows (due to whatever reason) they may have shifted and even thought they were helping the situation by spreading out traffic more. The idea that they were thinking "I am not really supposed to take these roads but kitten you, bikers!" doesn't seem to follow from what you have explained. But like I said, I'm just relying on the information you have given, since the concept of biking roads is foreign to me -- we pretty much have bike lanes and that's it and they mostly aren't separated either (and I dislike taking them to work and will usually ride longer to get to the bike path and take it for the majority of the trip, especially since I have been almost doored too many times). I also don't ride to work in the winter and have been sufficiently surprised to see people braving it in snow and feeling like it was unsafe since they could slide into traffic on really bad days (I don't drive to work ever, but take public transportation, talking more about driving around on a weekend or observing when walking). But because of that, depending on the situation, they may not expect there to be many bikers on the bike road when it's snowing, and that could factor into it (as you also suggest).

I am impressed you ride all winter in snow, for the record, in a climate that sounds even worse than the one I live in! I personally would be even less likely to (beyond being a weather wimp and nervous about the slippery conditions/visibility and uncomfortable riding when it's dark) if it made me angry.

NoxeemaJackson

Honestly, I recommend you reach out to other cyclists and as a group reach out to your city council.
Get together a group and draft a thoughtful letter with your concerns and maybe some suggested solutions.
It might just be a case of none of your city council people ride bikes in the winter so they aren't even aware and there may be something they can do to make the roads safer for cyclists.

You might find people to commiserate with here, but you also have a genuine concern about safety in your community - take it up with the proper channels and they may be able to make cycling for you, and everyone else, safer.

Lounmoun

Are the same number of bikes using the roads in winter as in other seasons or is it less bikes, more cars? Like are you the only bike in sight in winter or are there many others biking in winter?
It is not unfair that people driving use the shared road more in winter. Spreading traffic out might reduce problems.

There is no such thing as a bike road or bike lanes in my area. There are not even sidewalks for pedestrians in most places. We are all on the same roads. Your city sounds more receptive to bikes and maybe has a larger biking community. I do think you have some valid concerns about winter bike safety and could talk to others who bike in your city and see how they feel about the roads and approach your city council with something other than territorial feelings.

lorrpb

Most people prefer to drive on roads that have been cleared. They probably don't even think about bikers when it's snowing, but they have no obligation to avoid a certain public road. I'm sorry that it annoys you so much. Just be sure to wear extra visible clothes. Often the lighting is worse, people are distracted while driving in the snow, and they may not be on the look out for cyclists like they are in the summer. Stay safe.

SezxyStef

as a Canadian who see's snow a lot and drives mainly I can see the side of the car person.

1. Main roads are plowed first...
2. Side roads (the ones you usually use) are 2nd but people use them more during snow as they can go slower...

"my rage is with the way as soon as we get some snow, a whole cohort of these normally-considerate drivers suddenly decide to enable their selfishness chip. i have been riding year-round most years for over a decade, adn the traffic uptick from cars is dramatic and obvious the moment it snows."

Above is a clip from your OP...

These people are not being selfish. They are thinking about being able to either go slower in winter conditions or getting around the plows on the main artery roads....they are not bike roads they are there for cars.

and if you choose to ride a bike year round that is a choice....and wiht all choices there are ramifications (good and bad) and at some point you just need to accept that winter bike riding is way different and not be so "angry" or choose a different mode of transport.

ETA: in my house we have a rule...if you do something and it's a good happy thing...continue but if it doesn't make you happy...and you have another option...stop doing what makes you angry.

fishgutzy

snowflake954 wrote: »

Move south.

That doesn't always work.
I'm in NC. I live 12 miles from my office. But there is no safe way for me to ride a bike to work. I don't consider a road with no shoulder and a 50mph stored limit to be safe for me to ride a bicycle. I value my life More than trying to make so stupid point about sharing the road.
Riding a bike from BOSTON, MA to BURLINGTON, MA every weekday one summer is safer than riding a rural road with no shoulder.
I never road in Boston in the winter unless there was no snow. This was decades before Boston took car traffic lanes and made them bicycle lanes.

snowflake954

fishgutzy wrote: »

snowflake954 wrote: »

Move south.

That doesn't always work.
I'm in NC. I live 12 miles from my office. But there is no safe way for me to ride a bike to work. I don't consider a road with no shoulder and a 50mph stored limit to be safe for me to ride a bicycle. I value my life More than trying to make so stupid point about sharing the road.
Riding a bike from BOSTON, MA to BURLINGTON, MA every weekday one summer is safer than riding a rural road with no shoulder.
I never road in Boston in the winter unless there was no snow. This was decades before Boston took car traffic lanes and made them bicycle lanes.

Well, the discussion was about snow on the roads. Danger while biking and road conditions are another kettle of fish. If you want to discuss biking danger we can discuss Rome, Italy--where I live. Biking is possible, but a nightmare.