What about dry needling?
Grnhouse
Posts: 254 Member
My PT is recommending I try dry needling for my lower back pain. Wondering if others have tried it and had success or any relief from the pain?
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Hatha yoga is the only thing that helped my back.
I do 15 minutes each morning with a warmed towel around me.4 -
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Love dry needling for when the release I need for my muscles is too much/painful to get from massage!
Always by a physio or a massage therapist with a proper qualification though.
First time I had it was YEARS ago on one of my quads after I displaced my kneecap and had to have the muscles relaxed enough to get it back in place. Now I mostly have it on my upper traps.0 -
suzannesimmons3 wrote: »It all depends on what is causing your bad back
Acupuncture may help a muscular cause but will probably do little for spinal causes...and I'd see a properly trained physio/acupuncturist.
Dry needling isn't the same thing as acupuncture. Dry needling is when a doctor takes a needle and inserts it directly into a trigger point knot which causes the trigger point to release...sometimes a saline solution is also used.
Dry needling works very well for trigger point knots...I get trigger points a lot in my upper back because I have a herniated disk which causes spasms at times and those spasms turn into trigger points...they can be very stubborn and hard to get rid of just using direct pressure...when that doesn't work I go in for a dry needling treatment.
You can tell when the Dr. gets one really good...the knot will grab onto the needle and pull it in more and then when it releases you get this little electric shock...
It works, but it can also be a bit painful...but so worth it if you have trigger point issues. I just go to my GP who is also a sports medicine guy.1 -
cwolfman13 wrote: »You can tell when the Dr. gets one really good...the knot will grab onto the needle and pull it in more and then when it releases you get this little electric shock...
this sounds both terrifying and fascinating. i'm about to see a sports doc for the first time ever, next week . . . going to keep tabs on this thread in the meantime.
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Thanks @RuNaRoUnDaFiEld. Looked into it. Not ready yet for this type of yoga but will try beginner yoga, the basics.1
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It's a pinched nerve at the base of the nerve root @suzannesimmons3. I'm currently doing PT for it. I think it is more spinal than muscle.@cwolfman13. I'm not sure I want more pain.0
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Thanks @RuNaRoUnDaFiEld. I will look into that.
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canadianlbs wrote: »cwolfman13 wrote: »You can tell when the Dr. gets one really good...the knot will grab onto the needle and pull it in more and then when it releases you get this little electric shock...
this sounds both terrifying and fascinating. i'm about to see a sports doc for the first time ever, next week . . . going to keep tabs on this thread in the meantime.
@canadianlbs it also works well for IT band syndrome...though the treatment is much more unpleasant than just dealing with trigger points.0 -
It's a pinched nerve at the base of the nerve root @suzannesimmons3. I'm currently doing PT for it. I think it is more spinal than muscle.@cwolfman13. I'm not sure I want more pain.
I have a herniated disk/pinched nerve as well...while that is the spinal aspect of it, the actual pain I experience is when it causes spasms and trigger points. I can usually alleviate the issue with a couple of days of direct pressure every hour or so, but sometimes that doesn't work and I turn to dry needling.
It works very well for the trigger points and the pain is only for an instant and then all of the pain is gone...they're worth it IMO...you just need to see a doctor who knows how to do it properly...usually sports medicine folks as they use this a lot on athletes.Careful with people that are trying to make MONEY out of you.
Dry Needling is done by a doctor...if you have insurance you aren't going to pay anything except your co-pay. Some chiropractors and acupuncture therapists will also do it, but I'd personally stick with a sports medicine doctor.1 -
I work at a spine clinic, Our therapy center does dry needling and a lot of it, a lot of patients including my husband have had it, with good results. It's something you can definitely try and if it doesn't work for you at least you know and if it does then that's all the better. Finding what works for your back problems is really trial and error what works for you might not work for someone else but it's definitely worth it to try different things to see what works for you. Be patient and don't get discouraged if you try something and it doesn't work, there are many other things to try and it's really about finding which path or multiple paths will help take care of your pain.3
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My husband has had it done in OT for an injury on his arm that has made his muscles all the way to the back of his neck lock up. They couldn't get the needles to even go in the muscle on the back of his neck it was so tight. But it has worked well for the knots further down his arm.0
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LOVE it. Make sure you get a good chiro to do it, and let it "cook" for a little bit. Make sure to eat before and after, and to hydrate.1
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Had it on my back muscles a few years ago after struggling with the knots since playing rugby in college. My physical therapist did an amazing job and alleviated five years if pain in three sessions.2
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cwolfman13 wrote: »@canadianlbs it also works well for IT band syndrome...though the treatment is much more unpleasant than just dealing with trigger points.
yeeks . . . i don't have much reason to think he'll start right in with needles the first time we meet, and it might not even be the right thing for me. i'm suspecting a bone pointer or labral tear, from the way that things feel.
but i have just enough reservations about the guy i was referred to, to be interested in anything you can say about separating the quacks/cowboys from the better people in case needling does come up too.
anything your guy did in the early stages that convinced you he was performing due diligence and knew what he was doing? or example, i'd be very interested to hear what protocols he followed to find the trigger point and identify the needle target in the first place. do they show up on some kind of imaging?
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I had it done on my hamstrings last spring for tendinitis. It was done by a licensed physical therapist and was fully covered by my insurance. It helped a lot. In fact, it is what enabled me to run the Boston Marathon while "injured". However, I did find that the relief was temporary, lasting only 2-3 days. It wasn't until after the marathon when I was able to take an extended break from running that my hamstrings were truly able to heal.1
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It did bugger all for me when I had a bad back.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It worked for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting you were fooled by the Placebo Effect.4 -
"It worked for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting you were fooled by the Placebo Effect.
As long as it's not harmful, I would absolutely love to fall for a placebo. Every medicine has its side effects and other harms. If the placebo has less or no side effects, use it on me! Just don't tell me..6 -
Careful with people that are trying to make MONEY out of you.
So does this mean it would be a whole lot safer for things like this if there was no money to be made by the person doing it?
That would concern me much more, no money being made on it.
Unless there was a reason why it was free or cheap - like dental school and you knew the trade off was process taking much longer.
Not sure in this case I'd like to be the pin cushion for practice though - hope the class uses each other.
Glad I've never needed more than ART for bad pressure points, that was painful enough, though good pain realized even at the moment - much more relief later.
Makes me want to go in for a session - and watch someone like @cwolfman13 get pinned!
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It did bugger all for me when I had a bad back.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It worked for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting you were fooled by the Placebo Effect.
Alternatively....
Sumatriptan did bugger all for me when I had migraines.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It didn't work for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting that not all treatments are effective for everyone.6 -
It did bugger all for me when I had a bad back.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It worked for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting you were fooled by the Placebo Effect.
Sorry it didn't work for you, it does not work for all people you just need to keep trying other avenues until you find something effective for you. Don't discourage people from trying it just because it didn't work for you it might work great for them and then you did them a huge disservice, which wouldn't make you a very good person, hope you don't give that crap advice to someone you are supposed to care about. Also even if it was the placebo effect who give a F%$# as long as it works! For someone in serious pain EVERY SINGLE HOUR OF THE DAY if that helped do you honestly think they would care? The goal is to be out of pain and if that does it for them then isn't it working no matter how it came about? I work for a spine clinic and have for 9 years I also have a husband who has had 2 back surgeries in the last year and has done dry needling to great benefit, along with many friends and coworkers who have. So I'll take your opinion with a grain of salt.3 -
It did bugger all for me when I had a bad back.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It worked for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting you were fooled by the Placebo Effect.
Alternatively....
Sumatriptan did bugger all for me when I had migraines.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It didn't work for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting that not all treatments are effective for everyone.
Well said, I hate it when people think just because something wasn't the answer for them that it's worthless, witchdoctor, hoodoo. Medical care would be really friggin easy if everything worked the same for everyone.........duh. Especially something that can get you out of pain that is a non drug/opiod option!6 -
@Grnhouse I have it done when my shoulder acts up. It was absolutely amazing!! Seems to be related to chronic knots in the muscle and tendon. If you get a good therapist/doc that does it, it can work wonders!! the first few times I was CRAZY sore after it was done for a day or so. I started off having it done once a week and then as things got better it was once every 4-6 weeks and then on a case by case basis as my pain returned or mobility was affected. I have chronic shoulder problems and it is NOT a case of being fixed. It is a alternative to being on medication for the pain and muscle relaxers that I used to have to take daily. for me it was a pain management technique. feel free to message me but I am a HUGE advocate.2
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emmydoodles83 wrote: »It did bugger all for me when I had a bad back.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It worked for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting you were fooled by the Placebo Effect.
Alternatively....
Sumatriptan did bugger all for me when I had migraines.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It didn't work for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting that not all treatments are effective for everyone.
Well said, I hate it when people think just because something wasn't the answer for them that it's worthless, witchdoctor, hoodoo. Medical care would be really friggin easy if everything worked the same for everyone.........duh. Especially something that can get you out of pain that is a non drug/opiod option!
Unless the fact it didn't work for me is because it doesn't actually work.
There is no strong evidence that it works.
https://healthybutsmart.com/dry-needling-therapy/
"A PubMed search of the terms, ‘dry needling’, ‘trigger point dry needling’, or ‘intramuscular needling’, limited to the English language, humans and spanning from the year 2000 to present, yields about 150 results. Of these, 12 are meta-analyses and 29 are systematic reviews.
The relatively low number, and overall quality, of studies reporting on DN performed by PTs, at this time at least, coupled with the high variability found in the results of the meta-analyses, made it challenging to piece this article together."
Following a good few weeks of research, I would think that, at best, DN as a therapeutic treatment is somewhat dodgy! Wouldn’t you by now? There is currently no evidence (15) of any longterm benefit derived from DN, for a start. Whatever short-term benefit is suggested from DN generally comes from low to medium-quality evidence concluding that DN is better than “no treatment or sham needling.”
15. Gattie E, Cleland JA, Snodgrass S. The Effectiveness of Trigger Point Dry Needling for Musculoskeletal Conditions by Physical Therapists: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2017 Mar;47(3):133-149.
It's unethical to offer it to people as a first port of call.
Sure, if you've got no other avenue open and don't mind disappointment, go for it, and you might get a placebo effect.
I just wouldn't recommend it because I don't want to give people false hope.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26946612
Effectiveness of dry needling on reducing pain intensity in patients with myofascial pain syndrome: a Meta-analysis.
Rodríguez-Mansilla J, González-Sánchez B, De Toro García Á, Valera-Donoso E, Garrido-Ardila EM, Jiménez-Palomares M, González López-Arza MV.
CONCLUSION: DN was less effective on decreasing pain comparing to the placebo group.3 -
@JustKeepTryin thanks for your sharing. I'm thinking of trying b/c I've tried everything and I want relief for the pain.
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suzannesimmons3 wrote: »@JustKeepTryin thanks for your sharing. I'm thinking of trying b/c I've tried everything and I want relief for the pain.
I'd be more inclined to try tens for pain.
I've had a tens for years. It's never done anything for me0 -
emmydoodles83 wrote: »It did bugger all for me when I had a bad back.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It worked for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting you were fooled by the Placebo Effect.
Alternatively....
Sumatriptan did bugger all for me when I had migraines.
It's magic for those who like their witchdoctors in a white coat.
"It didn't work for me" is not scientific evidence. It's just admitting that not all treatments are effective for everyone.
Well said, I hate it when people think just because something wasn't the answer for them that it's worthless, witchdoctor, hoodoo. Medical care would be really friggin easy if everything worked the same for everyone.........duh. Especially something that can get you out of pain that is a non drug/opiod option!
Unless the fact it didn't work for me is because it doesn't actually work.
There is no strong evidence that it works.
https://healthybutsmart.com/dry-needling-therapy/
"A PubMed search of the terms, ‘dry needling’, ‘trigger point dry needling’, or ‘intramuscular needling’, limited to the English language, humans and spanning from the year 2000 to present, yields about 150 results. Of these, 12 are meta-analyses and 29 are systematic reviews.
The relatively low number, and overall quality, of studies reporting on DN performed by PTs, at this time at least, coupled with the high variability found in the results of the meta-analyses, made it challenging to piece this article together."
Following a good few weeks of research, I would think that, at best, DN as a therapeutic treatment is somewhat dodgy! Wouldn’t you by now? There is currently no evidence (15) of any longterm benefit derived from DN, for a start. Whatever short-term benefit is suggested from DN generally comes from low to medium-quality evidence concluding that DN is better than “no treatment or sham needling.”
15. Gattie E, Cleland JA, Snodgrass S. The Effectiveness of Trigger Point Dry Needling for Musculoskeletal Conditions by Physical Therapists: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis. J Orthop Sports Phys Ther. 2017 Mar;47(3):133-149.
It's unethical to offer it to people as a first port of call.
Sure, if you've got no other avenue open and don't mind disappointment, go for it, and you might get a placebo effect.
I just wouldn't recommend it because I don't want to give people false hope.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26946612
Effectiveness of dry needling on reducing pain intensity in patients with myofascial pain syndrome: a Meta-analysis.
Rodríguez-Mansilla J, González-Sánchez B, De Toro García Á, Valera-Donoso E, Garrido-Ardila EM, Jiménez-Palomares M, González López-Arza MV.
CONCLUSION: DN was less effective on decreasing pain comparing to the placebo group.
I'm wary of its effectiveness barring any studies which show otherwise. The sum of the body of research I found came to the same conclusion as @Orphia.
I do find it ironic that given this forum group's reliance and call to scientific research when claims are made, the only person to bring up actual studies instead of their own anecdotal data in here is getting woo'ed...2
This discussion has been closed.
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