Runners- indoor bike advice?
Lizzypb88
Posts: 367 Member
We have had our first snowfall today and it is rough outside, ended up having to do the treadmill which I absolutely hated! I cannot do it mentally... with this crazy week of winter snow and the roads are so icy and we are expecting snow every day this week, I don't want to torture myself on the treadmill because if I'm not at least enjoying it a little bit then I have no motivation... during the winter on days I cannot get outside to run, I was thinking I wanted to do the bike... I do not like the elliptical much, I feel I would rather do the bike instead... so to keep my running up during these bad winter days, what on earth should my speed on the bike be? Hard days running I do 11:50/mi, easy slow runs are more like 14min/mi, I do not understand RPM or anything like that, I just want some advice on how long, and what RPM to do when I do the bike, I'm actually a bit intimidated by it as I have never used one since high school
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Replies
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If you really want the bike to benefit running it's pretty simple. Build up to riding as long and hard as you can. A day or two between bike rides to recover. I have trained a ton of athletes and biking is a good adjunct to running but the fitness will only partially transfer. Obviously start small...15-20 minutes. Warm up, main set and then cool down, ride hard during the main part. Start with 15 minutes (5 warm up, 5 hard, 5 easy...done) a few times a week and build from there.
Bike trainers have nothing to do with the road or real speed. So 16 mph on your bike might be 25 on another. There is no reliability across machines. Use effort to guide you. You know what hard feels like. Ride hard. Slow increase to where you accumulate 40 total minutes of hard riding a week (all hard minutes per week combined). Maybe for the first few weeks shoot for 15 minutes of hard over three rides. Increase 2-3 minutes a week up 40. Do not worry about cadence (RPM) as the best exercise physiologists in the world do not agree on best cadences so....there are some general guidelines but that is for people who are pretty specialized. You want to be a better runner. If you follow this plan, and run easy between bikes days I would bet you would get to 11-12 minute miles on all runs. Intensity builds fitness but it needs to be used carefully. The cool thing about biking is you body can handle way more of it than running.
I am being very conservative with my suggestions as I do not know anything about you but I do know what makes people more fit. And it's not easy pedaling (at any RPM) unless you are completely untrained and you do not sound even close to that.
John
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We have had our first snowfall today and it is rough outside, ended up having to do the treadmill which I absolutely hated! I cannot do it mentally... with this crazy week of winter snow and the roads are so icy and we are expecting snow every day this week, I don't want to torture myself on the treadmill because if I'm not at least enjoying it a little bit then I have no motivation... during the winter on days I cannot get outside to run, I was thinking I wanted to do the bike... I do not like the elliptical much, I feel I would rather do the bike instead... so to keep my running up during these bad winter days, what on earth should my speed on the bike be? Hard days running I do 11:50/mi, easy slow runs are more like 14min/mi, I do not understand RPM or anything like that, I just want some advice on how long, and what RPM to do when I do the bike, I'm actually a bit intimidated by it as I have never used one since high school
RPM is revolutions per minute ... how many times your foot goes around. Your RPM should be above 70, and you can count it with a watch. Time yourself for a minute ... and count how many times your right foot goes around.
And a word of advice ... if you can, attend spinning classes. Some aren't so good, but most of the ones I have attended have been good. They'll give you a great workout! And you can set the bicycle up so that it fits you reasonably well. Talk to the instructor about that first.1 -
Bike is good cross training. Build the time and intensity gradually. Or try an aerobics class. If you're exercising at home, do Leslie Sansome for an hour. High knees and side steps as well as fast walking help strengthen your leg muscles.0
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Aim for 90 rpm. When you run, you're supposed to aim for 180 spm, but a full revolution is like 2 steps.0
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Riding a stationary bike is just as boring as running on a treadmill. You might take a look at Zwift. It makes riding a bicycle inside bearable. But they recently released a version for use with treadmills. I haven't tried it, but I've been seeing several runners using it.3
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NorthCascades wrote: »Aim for 90 rpm. When you run, you're supposed to aim for 180 spm, but a full revolution is like 2 steps.
Sorry this is not totally true...90 (left or right foot strikes per minute) for running is correct, cycling it's depends on way to many factors. Cadence is a red herring. Just pedal at what you want/feel most powerful comfortable.
I have read a ton of research (and running steps ) on this is you want to know more.
John0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Aim for 90 rpm. When you run, you're supposed to aim for 180 spm, but a full revolution is like 2 steps.
Sorry this is not totally true...90 (left or right foot strikes per minute) for running is correct, cycling it's depends on way to many factors. Cadence is a red herring. Just pedal at what you want/feel most powerful comfortable.
I have read a ton of research (and running steps ) on this is you want to know more.
John
good to know and yeah, that makes sense.
indoor cadence for me is 90-100 when.. well, just spinning along.
standing on the pedals in a simulated climb, I'm at 55-65.... but that's just me.
I suppose everyone has their own level of fitness and comfort zone.
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NorthCascades wrote: »Aim for 90 rpm. When you run, you're supposed to aim for 180 spm, but a full revolution is like 2 steps.
I bike for cross training, this is good to know.1 -
TavistockToad wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aim for 90 rpm. When you run, you're supposed to aim for 180 spm, but a full revolution is like 2 steps.
I bike for cross training, this is good to know.
Read my additional post afterwards about biking cadence.0 -
TavistockToad wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aim for 90 rpm. When you run, you're supposed to aim for 180 spm, but a full revolution is like 2 steps.
I bike for cross training, this is good to know.
Read my additional post afterwards about biking cadence.
I did
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TavistockToad wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aim for 90 rpm. When you run, you're supposed to aim for 180 spm, but a full revolution is like 2 steps.
I bike for cross training, this is good to know.
Except it's far more personal than that.
High cadence became popular because a certain natural high cadence rider won a lot of races - later it was revealed he was far from natural.... If Jan Ulrich with his huge gears and low cadence had beaten Lance Armstrong then the fashion would be different.
Most recommendations however, are between 80 - 100rpm.
My personal sweet spot is 80 to 85, I tend to only hit 90 on hills and during intense indoor sessions. Above 90rpm I lose pedalling efficiency. But I also cycle with someone who rides at over 90 on the flat and powers up hills well over 100.
For using cycling as cross training it's not at all prescriptive. There's also arguments for deliberate undergearing (leg speed) and overgearing (leg power) training sessions rather than stick at one cadence.0 -
I spin 4 days a week at a cycling studio and will be getting certified shortly to teach class. Just recently got a Peloton too which my wife loves but also still rides with me. If you are willing to make the investment try the Peloton. There are thousands of archived rides that you can go through and also live rides that you can join. Cycling can be just as boring as a treadmill or elliptical but bringing an instructor into it will make it so much better and challenging.0
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TavistockToad wrote: »NorthCascades wrote: »Aim for 90 rpm. When you run, you're supposed to aim for 180 spm, but a full revolution is like 2 steps.
I bike for cross training, this is good to know.
Except it's far more personal than that.
High cadence became popular because a certain natural high cadence rider won a lot of races - later it was revealed he was far from natural.... If Jan Ulrich with his huge gears and low cadence had beaten Lance Armstrong then the fashion would be different.
Most recommendations however, are between 80 - 100rpm.
My personal sweet spot is 80 to 85, I tend to only hit 90 on hills and during intense indoor sessions. Above 90rpm I lose pedalling efficiency. But I also cycle with someone who rides at over 90 on the flat and powers up hills well over 100.
For using cycling as cross training it's not at all prescriptive. There's also arguments for deliberate undergearing (leg speed) and overgearing (leg power) training sessions rather than stick at one cadence.
Spot on...funny but the most efficient candance is sometimes 60...which is totally crappy to pedal at0 -
There's also arguments for deliberate undergearing (leg speed) and overgearing (leg power) training sessions rather than stick at one cadence.
I personally spin anywhere from 80 to 110 rpm on flat ground. But Seattle is a hilly place, and there are only so many gears, so I wind up spending a lot of time mashing at lower cadence too. Aiming for a specific point doesn't mean being able to achieve it all of the time.
You can go just as fast at any cadence, because cadence is only half the picture. Lower your cadence, increase your force, and it's the same thing. Except that it comes at different costs (which is why people deliberately use the "wrong" gear sometimes), high cadence taxes the aerobic system, low cadence taxes the leg muscles because it requires higher peak forces, which tend to fatigue people more quickly, and to exacerbate any knee issues a person might have.
Somewhere in the ballpark of 90 rpm tends to be the best balance of CV/leg strength for most riders overall. But that's only when your gearing makes it an option, and sprinting and recovery don't apply because your focus is different in those times. If high cadence is difficult (a lot of people are natural mashers), doing high cadence workouts will pay dividends for your fitness overall.0 -
NorthCascades wrote: »Aim for 90 rpm. When you run, you're supposed to aim for 180 spm, but a full revolution is like 2 steps.
Sorry this is not totally true...90 (left or right foot strikes per minute) for running is correct, cycling it's depends on way to many factors. Cadence is a red herring. Just pedal at what you want/feel most powerful comfortable.
I have read a ton of research (and running steps ) on this is you want to know more.
John
There is no ideal cadence for running, especially since it changes with pace.0 -
Actually most world class athletes remarkedly fall into around ~90 foot strikes per minute (each foot). Read about Jack Daniels observations during the Olympics. But you are spot on, most of the 90 per minute is from world class while racing...foot strikes actually seem to vary depending on pace. Just did a search and found a few nice analysis of foot strikes and it is pace specific. Go figure, just like cycling cadence....so many factors no one really knows. Most people I know are around 90 but who really counts on all their runs. Very few.
J0 -
We have had our first snowfall today and it is rough outside, ended up having to do the treadmill which I absolutely hated! I cannot do it mentally... with this crazy week of winter snow and the roads are so icy and we are expecting snow every day this week, I don't want to torture myself on the treadmill because if I'm not at least enjoying it a little bit then I have no motivation... during the winter on days I cannot get outside to run, I was thinking I wanted to do the bike... I do not like the elliptical much, I feel I would rather do the bike instead... so to keep my running up during these bad winter days, what on earth should my speed on the bike be? Hard days running I do 11:50/mi, easy slow runs are more like 14min/mi, I do not understand RPM or anything like that, I just want some advice on how long, and what RPM to do when I do the bike, I'm actually a bit intimidated by it as I have never used one since high school
As with all the discussions when you were doing C25K, different types of cycle session have different effects, and similar principles around pace apply.
In terms of cross training benefit you're thinking about two main benefits; maintain aerobic capacity, and improve your soft tissue resilience. The first you'll get from similar easy paced riding, but if you're on a trainer that can be very dull. As far as the soft tissue aspect is concerned, that's more about your riding form.
Different gear/ cadence combinations have an effect, and whilst I agree with the points above it's worth understanding what those do. A low cadence against high resistance helps with leg strength, but can put a lot of stress on the knee. As a runner that can be unhelpful as it can exacerbate any issues with running form. Concentrating on a higher cadence against moderate resistance helps build the shin muscle, focus on pedaling in circles rather than pumping up and down.
Mix in some time out of the saddle, as that changes how you're applying power.
As with running, core strength is important, so don't neglect the resistance training.2 -
80-100 cadence is great..... as long as your keeping good form, engaging your core and not bouncing around on the seat - that's just wasted energy.
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We have had our first snowfall today and it is rough outside, ended up having to do the treadmill which I absolutely hated! I cannot do it mentally... with this crazy week of winter snow and the roads are so icy and we are expecting snow every day this week, I don't want to torture myself on the treadmill because if I'm not at least enjoying it a little bit then I have no motivation... during the winter on days I cannot get outside to run, I was thinking I wanted to do the bike... I do not like the elliptical much, I feel I would rather do the bike instead... so to keep my running up during these bad winter days, what on earth should my speed on the bike be? Hard days running I do 11:50/mi, easy slow runs are more like 14min/mi, I do not understand RPM or anything like that, I just want some advice on how long, and what RPM to do when I do the bike, I'm actually a bit intimidated by it as I have never used one since high school
Depends on your goals. If you just want to maintain fitness while indoors, use HR/effort as your guide rather than specific RPM metrics or other factors. Pedal at an effort and for a length of time that feels comparable to the type of run that you would have planned for the day.0 -
If you really want the bike to benefit running it's pretty simple. Build up to riding as long and hard as you can. A day or two between bike rides to recover. I have trained a ton of athletes and biking is a good adjunct to running but the fitness will only partially transfer. Obviously start small...15-20 minutes. Warm up, main set and then cool down, ride hard during the main part. Start with 15 minutes (5 warm up, 5 hard, 5 easy...done) a few times a week and build from there.
Bike trainers have nothing to do with the road or real speed. So 16 mph on your bike might be 25 on another. There is no reliability across machines. Use effort to guide you. You know what hard feels like. Ride hard. Slow increase to where you accumulate 40 total minutes of hard riding a week (all hard minutes per week combined). Maybe for the first few weeks shoot for 15 minutes of hard over three rides. Increase 2-3 minutes a week up 40. Do not worry about cadence (RPM) as the best exercise physiologists in the world do not agree on best cadences so....there are some general guidelines but that is for people who are pretty specialized. You want to be a better runner. If you follow this plan, and run easy between bikes days I would bet you would get to 11-12 minute miles on all runs. Intensity builds fitness but it needs to be used carefully. The cool thing about biking is you body can handle way more of it than running.
I am being very conservative with my suggestions as I do not know anything about you but I do know what makes people more fit. And it's not easy pedaling (at any RPM) unless you are completely untrained and you do not sound even close to that.
John
This is a well-timed post for me - thanks OP! I have a stationary bike at home and have been wondering what to do with it now that it's looking like running might be done for the season. (I know there are a lot of winter runners here and I've read some great tips and encouragement, but I've only been running on the sidewalks around my house, which are currently ice-minefields and likely to remain that way for some time - I just don't want it enough to drive somewhere in order to run, so I don't think it'll be happening this season.) I've been mostly just putzing on the bike for 20 minutes while I watch cartoons, but haven't felt like I'm doing much other than getting sweaty and making my thighs sore. That slow/hard/slow progression sounds completely do-able, though, and I like having something to work toward.0 -
We have had our first snowfall today and it is rough outside, ended up having to do the treadmill which I absolutely hated! I cannot do it mentally... with this crazy week of winter snow and the roads are so icy and we are expecting snow every day this week, I don't want to torture myself on the treadmill because if I'm not at least enjoying it a little bit then I have no motivation... during the winter on days I cannot get outside to run, I was thinking I wanted to do the bike... I do not like the elliptical much, I feel I would rather do the bike instead... so to keep my running up during these bad winter days, what on earth should my speed on the bike be? Hard days running I do 11:50/mi, easy slow runs are more like 14min/mi, I do not understand RPM or anything like that, I just want some advice on how long, and what RPM to do when I do the bike, I'm actually a bit intimidated by it as I have never used one since high school
Depends on your goals. If you just want to maintain fitness while indoors, use HR/effort as your guide rather than specific RPM metrics or other factors. Pedal at an effort and for a length of time that feels comparable to the type of run that you would have planned for the day.
Although it's worth commenting that easy paced running HR and easy paced cycling HRs are quite different things.0 -
Actually most world class athletes remarkedly fall into around ~90 foot strikes per minute (each foot). Read about Jack Daniels observations during the Olympics. But you are spot on, most of the 90 per minute is from world class while racing...foot strikes actually seem to vary depending on pace. Just did a search and found a few nice analysis of foot strikes and it is pace specific. Go figure, just like cycling cadence....so many factors no one really knows. Most people I know are around 90 but who really counts on all their runs. Very few.
J
Here's what Jack Daniels wrote about that study on a LetsRun message board back in '07:
Maybe I can clear a few thing up in this stride-rate and stride length discussion. First I need to emphasize the fact that what I have written relative to stride rate among elite runners (we tested 49 men and 30 women at the 84 Olympics) is that they almost all used a 180 OR GREATER stride rate. It was not meant to mean that 180 is THE proper rate. For women the rate was about 5% faster than for men, with women’s AVERAGES ranging from about 195 to 202 and for the men, from about 186 to 194. There were certainly individual differences, with men and women going over 200 in the 800 and some in the 1500 also. Over the range of running speeds observed (800 for men and women, to 10k for men and marathon for women), stride rate varied for both men and women by about 3-4% and stride length varied by 26% for men and 38% for women (having marathon pace involved for women and not men, skews these data some, but women did not race 5k or 10k in 1984, and we didn’t get men’s marathon). Still, no question that speed is changed much more as a result of changes in stride length than in stride rate.0 -
Perfect, thanks for finding that0
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