Runners- what is happening to my speed with my 5k's this winter?!
Lizzypb88
Posts: 367 Member
-My first 5k (zero training or exercise) in April was 45min.
-did the C25K program and did a 5k in August in 36min, but I pushed so hard that I fell down and cried from the pain. To date that's my PR!
I started slowing down my running because I was transitioning to running outside, and my next 5k I did in 38.5min in October- I was really upset!
I realized that constantly going slow wasn't helping, so since that October race, I started running with how I felt- typically my 3x a week runs are one faster one, a medium paced one, then a very slow one. I feel very happy and content running to how I feel! I actually went from October of constant 13min miles, to some miles at 11:30 pace, and my slow days at 14:30 min miles, so on days that I felt I could run faster I was the speed of my 5k from October!
Well my 5k a few days ago, I of course pushed right off the bat, and the first mile I did in 11 min mile, which on a good run day I can do if it's a great day! That day I pushed too hard for my body apparently and my calf muscles seized up! I had to stop and walk because they were so tight! I couldn't understand why I felt it was a hard run... I walked off and on, and did that 5k in my worst time since training- 40min and 8 seconds.... to note, the course was about 1/2in snow on some roads, it was 17 degrees out, so maybe my stamina couldn't handle the cold? This makes me think that my choice of running as to how I feel on my given running days isn't working... I truly love running, but I would hope that I could get better!! Maybe being up 5 pounds has also added too much stress? (Winter dieting is tough! Down 85 pounds total though)
Anyone have any insight? I mean it's been almost a year of just trying to figure out what I need to do to get better, between quitting the treadmill, to having pushed too hard and getting injured in summer, to taking it TOO easy, and now I feel I found my thing to run as to how I feel, and I've actually raced better once two weeks ago! Is the 5pounds I gained back really hindering it? I have no one to blame except myself as far as that goes and am eating well again. If anyone has any insight as to my races I would love to hear it! When I tell my family they usually say- then just quit running- I don't know anyone who is a runner to ask for advice
-did the C25K program and did a 5k in August in 36min, but I pushed so hard that I fell down and cried from the pain. To date that's my PR!
I started slowing down my running because I was transitioning to running outside, and my next 5k I did in 38.5min in October- I was really upset!
I realized that constantly going slow wasn't helping, so since that October race, I started running with how I felt- typically my 3x a week runs are one faster one, a medium paced one, then a very slow one. I feel very happy and content running to how I feel! I actually went from October of constant 13min miles, to some miles at 11:30 pace, and my slow days at 14:30 min miles, so on days that I felt I could run faster I was the speed of my 5k from October!
Well my 5k a few days ago, I of course pushed right off the bat, and the first mile I did in 11 min mile, which on a good run day I can do if it's a great day! That day I pushed too hard for my body apparently and my calf muscles seized up! I had to stop and walk because they were so tight! I couldn't understand why I felt it was a hard run... I walked off and on, and did that 5k in my worst time since training- 40min and 8 seconds.... to note, the course was about 1/2in snow on some roads, it was 17 degrees out, so maybe my stamina couldn't handle the cold? This makes me think that my choice of running as to how I feel on my given running days isn't working... I truly love running, but I would hope that I could get better!! Maybe being up 5 pounds has also added too much stress? (Winter dieting is tough! Down 85 pounds total though)
Anyone have any insight? I mean it's been almost a year of just trying to figure out what I need to do to get better, between quitting the treadmill, to having pushed too hard and getting injured in summer, to taking it TOO easy, and now I feel I found my thing to run as to how I feel, and I've actually raced better once two weeks ago! Is the 5pounds I gained back really hindering it? I have no one to blame except myself as far as that goes and am eating well again. If anyone has any insight as to my races I would love to hear it! When I tell my family they usually say- then just quit running- I don't know anyone who is a runner to ask for advice
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Replies
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Over the winter focus on running longer. Work you way up to a 7+ mile long run once a week. Keep it slow and steady. Add a little each week until you get there. Keep the other runs short but shoot for running 15+ miles every week (work your way up to 20 if you can). This alone will help your 5k time.
You have to get your body used to running long before you can go fast. Be patient and stay on track and you will be surprised in the Spring.1 -
Did you do any warm-up miles before your race? If you started with cold muscles on a cold day; no wonder your leg seized up. It is generally a good idea to do a couple of slow easy miles before a 5 or 10k, with some faster strides to get your muscles fully warmed up. Then you'll be prepared to run hard. When you run 'how you feel' you probably start out fairly slow and pick up the pace as your muscles warm up. You should do the same thing in a race. Instead, you started out hard and fast on tight muscles so they just got tighter. Your aerobic system needs time to warm up as well. By running too hard at the start, you ran out of oxygen, so had to slow to a walk.
I had one race, a turkey trot, where I arrived late, didn't have time to fully warm up, raced to the start line so I wouldn't miss the gun, and then headed out too fast. Like you, about a mile in I had to walk to let my body catch up. After a few steps though, I was able to start out at a more reasonable pace and I finished well. I learned a couple of lessons there.1 -
Well chickadee, Welcome to running. I'm just taking a wild guess here. But I think you should reign it in a little. UGH! NOT WHAT A RUNNER WANTS TO HEAR! I know. Just hear me out......
You've established your fast time. Now how slow can you run? Do all your short runs s-l-o-w. Ya, I'm serious. Back it off, run a comfortable pace, then back it off some more. How fast can you walk, pick it up from there. Focus on form, feel your core, glutes, quads, focus on your breathing. Cold weather is awesome for running, you should be able to see an increase in distance with a more controlled pace. I WANT TO BE FAST! oh you will be, because you've learned to run.
Then once a week, or 10 days or whatever you can handle. Go balls out. Kick it for some speed, Do some fartleks. Or maybe you'll enjoy those long slow runs and keep adding mileage.
The secret is slow, and slower.... not fast ever exhausting yourself. Temperature does effects our ability, but I bet you're just on the verge of over training, and need a bit less stress on your body.
I'd almost bet, that if you reign it in for a month, you'll PR having not have tried.
All this assuming you are eating adequately. The body does not wanna go if the tank is low.
fuel the run.
And come join us in the monthly running thread!
*High five*
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typically my 3x a week runs are one faster one, a medium paced one, then a very slow one. I feel very happy and content running to how I feel! I actually went from October of constant 13min miles, to some miles at 11:30 pace, and my slow days at 14:30 min miles, so on days that I felt I could run faster I was the speed of my 5k from October!
How far are you running in each of those sessions? That's more important to anyone sharing the question than pace.2 -
To get faster at 5k, you need to start running further1
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MeanderingMammal wrote: »typically my 3x a week runs are one faster one, a medium paced one, then a very slow one. I feel very happy and content running to how I feel! I actually went from October of constant 13min miles, to some miles at 11:30 pace, and my slow days at 14:30 min miles, so on days that I felt I could run faster I was the speed of my 5k from October!
How far are you running in each of those sessions? That's more important to anyone sharing the question than pace.
This is the most important question.
Your "fast day" should be at least 2 miles/20-25 minutes of fast and 5-10 front and back of slow easy pace... 4-4.5 miles
Your very slow day should be at least an hour... 4-5 miles
Your medium day.... can be a little shorter, but still have a slow easy run front and back for at least 5 minutes.
In other words, if you're not doing at least 15 MPW, work up to that first.
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I love these "you have to be running 15 miles per week" responses. You don't have to run 15 miles per week to increase speed. You do need to increase distance slowly (10% ish on your current max distance) because when you can run further you are a stronger runner and better able to increase your speed on shorter runs. I like the fatlek method of running hard to a lamp post and then backing off and then repeating that. Then the next time I run the route I run hard for two lamp posts etc. I also incorporate strength training and CrossFit into my routine which has built strength and stamina and a better mind game to cope with pushing harder. I CrossFit 3 times a week, strength train once and run twice. Total mileage a week depends on my long run mainly but I do 4 miles once and then either 7 or 10 miles.1
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2 comments
Build volume safely over time. Can be done by increasing days or distance per run. 3-4 days, with one longer run and one tempo run. The rest just easy miles.
Also don't freak out too much over one performance. There were a lot of different variables and reasons that could have or did contribute to it.0 -
karenbeckwith5 wrote: »I love these "you have to be running 15 miles per week" responses. You don't have to run 15 miles per week to increase speed. You do need to increase distance slowly (10% ish on your current max distance) because when you can run further you are a stronger runner and better able to increase your speed on shorter runs. I like the fatlek method of running hard to a lamp post and then backing off and then repeating that. Then the next time I run the route I run hard for two lamp posts etc. I also incorporate strength training and CrossFit into my routine which has built strength and stamina and a better mind game to cope with pushing harder. I CrossFit 3 times a week, strength train once and run twice. Total mileage a week depends on my long run mainly but I do 4 miles once and then either 7 or 10 miles.
Lol. Don’t worry about doing 15 MPW. from someone with 15 MPW training load.1 -
My running times are tremendously bad in the winter..combination of more difficulty breathing, more wind, cold muscles/etc for the first mile or so (I've tumbled over my own feet in the first 0.5 miles before due to my cold ankles not quite functioning yet), bad footing, etc. I was concerned over it last winter (I could barely run 2 minutes without needing a walking break) - the first freak warm day in February, however, running felt so incredibly easy after those hard,short,slow cold runs and PR'd my 10 miles by a huge margin.0 -
I'll let you all in on a little secret: running is like anything else you want to improve. If you want to play piano better, you have to play the piano more. Same for running. Those people (finishing) up at the front of your local 5k are running a lot. I'm not saying that everyone should be running 50 (or 80) miles a week, but people who ridicule the calls for increased mileage are indulging in magical thinking.
How much? Start small- add one more short run per week and give it a couple months to see what happens.2 -
It's ironic, I'm normally the one chiming in to not increase your mileage, but If you want to increase your 5K time you need to be going further than 5K in every training session. You may fast walk/slow run your warmup/cooldown, but there's a minimum base mileage that you have to get to. It's not 30 or 50 miles. and MM and I go around and around on the subject. but reality is, if you're not getting in 3 days and 4-5 miles per session(not all of it has to be fast). You won't get faster, and it's possible to get slower.
I've lost the link, but there was a really neat study about 10 years old, and it looked specifically at Miltary age persons 18-45, over 6 months, with one group running a minimum distance(1.5-2.0 miles) 3 sessions a week at a moderately hard(test/race) pace. and another group running 3 sessions a week with intervals, slow run, and a moderate pace day. The first group did no better than their entry pace, and many did worse. The second group showed consistent and substantial improvement over their starting pace.0 -
You've got responses from the right people thus far. To reiterate:
1.) Not every race will be your best time. Some days are better than others, some are much better. All for no real reason you can tell. Welcome to running!
2.) With only 3 runs per week, easy volume is the best way to improve. For reference, my 5K times didn't really start to improve until I upped my weekly volume to at least 15mpw and started regularly running distances longer than 5K.
Something like 4 runs per week would be a really robust workout schedule; one 2.5 mile tempo, 2X 4 miles easy, and one easy 5-6 miler would give you pretty good results.2 -
stanmann571 wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »typically my 3x a week runs are one faster one, a medium paced one, then a very slow one. I feel very happy and content running to how I feel! I actually went from October of constant 13min miles, to some miles at 11:30 pace, and my slow days at 14:30 min miles, so on days that I felt I could run faster I was the speed of my 5k from October!
How far are you running in each of those sessions? That's more important to anyone sharing the question than pace.
In other words, if you're not doing at least 15 MPW, work up to that first.
This. Distance and training consistency will be your friends in bringing up your 5k time from where it is right now. I personally would not fret over technical running items like fartlek work or 800m repeats or whatever at this stage in the game, master the distance first.
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Gaining 5 pounds is probably not causing a change in your running ability. The weather might be part of the problem with regard to the cramping.
You need a structured way to increase your mileage and improve your speed. A lot of people don't really know what to do after they finish C25K because they're used to having a plan tell them what to do, but they aren't yet experienced enough to design a training plan for themselves. You could try Hal Hidgon's intermediate 5K plan (http://www.halhigdon.com/training/50934/Intermediate-5K-Training). It is designed to improve your 5K time and will also get you ready for a 10K should you decide to try that distance.0 -
To add my five cents to everyone else's feedback:
- You are actually doing a number of things right. Since you are pretty new to running, at this stage of the game it should be mostly about learning to enjoy running in all its dimensions and figuring out if it's something you like enough to incorporate into your life long term. Establishing a routine like 3x/week is a great way to start. Running based on how you feel is the right way to go about that so that it is something you develop a love for as it sounds like you have. you don't want to be miserable or frustrated or you won't stay with it.
- Signing up for races is a great way to keep you motivated. Keep on doing that, but don't worry about your performance right now. Sure you can benchmark things but each race has it's own dynamic as well as how you feel. It's good to reflect on each race and learn from them as you are but don't beat yourself up. Congratulate yourself for being out there and competing instead of being on the sidelines like most people are.
- Winter running in Western New York is not for the faint of heart. Just being willing to brave the elements and going out there is already a success. Conditions are often borderline hazardous which can be it's own version of fun but in order to avoid falling you need to keep your feet underneath you and not push off to avoid slipping. Like Shady did at that Indy-Bills game a couple of weeks ago when he scampered for the game winning touchdown. So naturally you will not be going as fast as in nice dry and warmer conditions. Make sure you have the right clothing - a good pair of running tights and layered breathable fabric with a wind-breaking outer layer, wool hat, maybe even a balaclava if temps are < 20 degrees. Also running shoes with more tread like trail running shoes.
- In terms of improvement suggestions, you can make progress with a 3x/week program. Build up your longer runs 2x/week by 5 minutes/week, weather allowing. If you have treadmill access I'd recommend taking it indoor 1x/week, warming up easy for 10 min with a couple of 15 sec accelerations. Main set 6x30 seconds fast (80-90% full sprint) followed by 1 minute walk/slow jog between each sprint. Then a 10 minute cool down. Over time you can increase up to 1 minute intervals. These will improve your fitness and train you what it feels like to go fast.
- Finally, look for a run club. There is nothing better to improve your speed than to run with others who are a notch faster and supportive.
- Good luck and enjoy the journey!0 -
- Winter running in Western New York is not for the faint of heart. Just being willing to brave the elements and going out there is already a success. Conditions are often borderline hazardous which can be it's own version of fun but in order to avoid falling you need to keep your feet underneath you and not push off to avoid slipping. Like Shady did at that Indy-Bills game a couple of weeks ago when he scampered for the game winning touchdown. So naturally you will not be going as fast as in nice dry and warmer conditions. Make sure you have the right clothing - a good pair of running tights and layered breathable fabric with a wind-breaking outer layer, wool hat, maybe even a balaclava if temps are < 20 degrees. Also running shoes with more tread like trail running shoes.
I've grown to prefer the "ear warmer headband" AKA Head panties(they look sort of like a pair of bikini/briefs that have been cut down)
I've also got a neck wrap(like a balaclava) that I got from fleet feet. It's really light and warm.0 -
*** thank you everyone for your responses, most of them make me think more, and I'll just give a bit more insight to my running too...
-- I run on average, 3 miles 2-3 times a week
- I was trying to increase my mileage at one point, but I kept getting numb feet so I went down to running only twice a week, which kept me from getting injured, and got up to 5 miles twice a week... kept me from getting injured, but I saw zero improvement and of course was going slower as my runs were long and only twice a week... honestly I think the shoes I had then were not "for me" and the new ones I have now from the runners shoe store are made for me... I run every other week 3 times, aka I'll run 3x one week, 2x the next week, 3x the next week etc and that has kept me injury free... if I run 3x a week 3 days in a row I get too much swelling and my feet go numb and I end up needing more recovery time
-- I'm 195 pounds, 5'4, I was almost 300 pounds a few years ago and this has been my only form of exercise, I lost most of my weight simply by changing my diet so I wonder if living my life with no exercise and then starting up running and still being obese is another hinderance?
-- I eat 1300 calories a day, give or take, since I know the formula is calories in/calories out, I truly believe it because if I eat more than that, since I lost my weight eating this many calories for a few years, once I increase my calories or have a binge day, I gain right away- but at the same time I wonder if 1300 calories is enough to fuel me for about 45min-1hr run?
-- to keep my feet from going numb, I've learned that I legit have to walk for 30 seconds to 1min after each mile, I think it lets the blood flow to my legs better, and if I do get numb feet, as soon as I stop and walk the feeling comes back
- I HATE running in the summer, I'm in upstate ny and humidity really affects me... I feel like 30-50 degree days I have such a great feeling and fun my best, but when the temp is in the teens I feel out of breath quicker
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*** thank you everyone for your responses, most of them make me think more, and I'll just give a bit more insight to my running too...
-- I run on average, 3 miles 2-3 times a week
- I was trying to increase my mileage at one point, but I kept getting numb feet so I went down to running only twice a week, which kept me from getting injured, and got up to 5 miles twice a week... kept me from getting injured, but I saw zero improvement and of course was going slower as my runs were long and only twice a week... honestly I think the shoes I had then were not "for me" and the new ones I have now from the runners shoe store are made for me... I run every other week 3 times, aka I'll run 3x one week, 2x the next week, 3x the next week etc and that has kept me injury free... if I run 3x a week 3 days in a row I get too much swelling and my feet go numb and I end up needing more recovery time
-- I'm 195 pounds, 5'4, I was almost 300 pounds a few years ago and this has been my only form of exercise, I lost most of my weight simply by changing my diet so I wonder if living my life with no exercise and then starting up running and still being obese is another hinderance?
-- I eat 1300 calories a day, give or take, since I know the formula is calories in/calories out, I truly believe it because if I eat more than that, since I lost my weight eating this many calories for a few years, once I increase my calories or have a binge day, I gain right away- but at the same time I wonder if 1300 calories is enough to fuel me for about 45min-1hr run?
-- to keep my feet from going numb, I've learned that I legit have to walk for 30 seconds to 1min after each mile, I think it lets the blood flow to my legs better, and if I do get numb feet, as soon as I stop and walk the feeling comes back
- I HATE running in the summer, I'm in upstate ny and humidity really affects me... I feel like 30-50 degree days I have such a great feeling and fun my best, but when the temp is in the teens I feel out of breath quicker
Without knowing how much you're losing per week and the rest of your activity (and the accuracy of your logging), I would say that 1,300 probably isn't enough for someone who is regularly running 45-60 minutes.2 -
*** thank you everyone for your responses, most of them make me think more, and I'll just give a bit more insight to my running too...
-- I run on average, 3 miles 2-3 times a week
- I was trying to increase my mileage at one point, but I kept getting numb feet so I went down to running only twice a week, which kept me from getting injured, and got up to 5 miles twice a week... kept me from getting injured, but I saw zero improvement and of course was going slower as my runs were long and only twice a week... honestly I think the shoes I had then were not "for me" and the new ones I have now from the runners shoe store are made for me... I run every other week 3 times, aka I'll run 3x one week, 2x the next week, 3x the next week etc and that has kept me injury free... if I run 3x a week 3 days in a row I get too much swelling and my feet go numb and I end up needing more recovery time
-- I'm 195 pounds, 5'4, I was almost 300 pounds a few years ago and this has been my only form of exercise, I lost most of my weight simply by changing my diet so I wonder if living my life with no exercise and then starting up running and still being obese is another hinderance?
-- I eat 1300 calories a day, give or take, since I know the formula is calories in/calories out, I truly believe it because if I eat more than that, since I lost my weight eating this many calories for a few years, once I increase my calories or have a binge day, I gain right away- but at the same time I wonder if 1300 calories is enough to fuel me for about 45min-1hr run?
-- to keep my feet from going numb, I've learned that I legit have to walk for 30 seconds to 1min after each mile, I think it lets the blood flow to my legs better, and if I do get numb feet, as soon as I stop and walk the feeling comes back
- I HATE running in the summer, I'm in upstate ny and humidity really affects me... I feel like 30-50 degree days I have such a great feeling and fun my best, but when the temp is in the teens I feel out of breath quicker
If your feet are going numb, your shoes may be too small or too narrow. Or if you're wearing a thicker sock for the winter, you might need to loosen the laces.
There are medical issues that can cause numb feet too, but I'd check the shoes first and see if that helps.0 -
You can easily calculate the calories burnt running, so that you can eat them back, using the following formula.
Bodyweight in lbs x 0.63 x distance in miles.
Also don't confuse water weight with fat gain when your weight fluctuates.2 -
*** thank you everyone for your responses, most of them make me think more, and I'll just give a bit more insight to my running too...
-- I run on average, 3 miles 2-3 times a week
- I was trying to increase my mileage at one point, but I kept getting numb feet so I went down to running only twice a week, which kept me from getting injured, and got up to 5 miles twice a week... kept me from getting injured, but I saw zero improvement and of course was going slower as my runs were long and only twice a week... honestly I think the shoes I had then were not "for me" and the new ones I have now from the runners shoe store are made for me... I run every other week 3 times, aka I'll run 3x one week, 2x the next week, 3x the next week etc and that has kept me injury free... if I run 3x a week 3 days in a row I get too much swelling and my feet go numb and I end up needing more recovery time
-- I'm 195 pounds, 5'4, I was almost 300 pounds a few years ago and this has been my only form of exercise, I lost most of my weight simply by changing my diet so I wonder if living my life with no exercise and then starting up running and still being obese is another hinderance?
-- I eat 1300 calories a day, give or take, since I know the formula is calories in/calories out, I truly believe it because if I eat more than that, since I lost my weight eating this many calories for a few years, once I increase my calories or have a binge day, I gain right away- but at the same time I wonder if 1300 calories is enough to fuel me for about 45min-1hr run?
-- to keep my feet from going numb, I've learned that I legit have to walk for 30 seconds to 1min after each mile, I think it lets the blood flow to my legs better, and if I do get numb feet, as soon as I stop and walk the feeling comes back
- I HATE running in the summer, I'm in upstate ny and humidity really affects me... I feel like 30-50 degree days I have such a great feeling and fun my best, but when the temp is in the teens I feel out of breath quicker
If your feet are going numb, your shoes may be too small or too narrow. Or if you're wearing a thicker sock for the winter, you might need to loosen the laces.
There are medical issues that can cause numb feet too, but I'd check the shoes first and see if that helps.
You might also want to get a gait analysis. Certain gaits can cause/exacerbate numbness.0 -
stanmann571 wrote: »
- Winter running in Western New York is not for the faint of heart. Just being willing to brave the elements and going out there is already a success. Conditions are often borderline hazardous which can be it's own version of fun but in order to avoid falling you need to keep your feet underneath you and not push off to avoid slipping. Like Shady did at that Indy-Bills game a couple of weeks ago when he scampered for the game winning touchdown. So naturally you will not be going as fast as in nice dry and warmer conditions. Make sure you have the right clothing - a good pair of running tights and layered breathable fabric with a wind-breaking outer layer, wool hat, maybe even a balaclava if temps are < 20 degrees. Also running shoes with more tread like trail running shoes.
I've grown to prefer the "ear warmer headband" AKA Head panties(they look sort of like a pair of bikini/briefs that have been cut down)
I've also got a neck wrap(like a balaclava) that I got from fleet feet. It's really light and warm.
I usually wear my summer hat, but supplement with my larger headphones covering my ears instead of using earbuds..they do a pretty decent job of keeping my ears warm..0 -
karenbeckwith5 wrote: »I love these "you have to be running 15 miles per week" responses. You don't have to run 15 miles per week to increase speed
The observation I'd make is that whilst you don't need to run more than 15mpw to improve, the rate of improvement is likely to be extremely slow and inefficient. 15mpw is four 5K sessions, or one 10K and two 5Ks, which personally I'd place as the minimum reasonable volume for injury mitigation.
fwiw the majority of coaching guidance is that easy, steady paced, volume is pretty much the way to go up until 25 mpw. Before that one doesn't really have the aerobic base to gain any real value from speed work, and in practice all that does is increase injury risk.
Bluntly, given that the originator has discussed her progress from the beginning of C25K and has had a number of issues from the beginning, steady, easy paced volume is the way to go. I'm not surprised that the answer to my "volume" question is 3 mile sessions. The last couple of times the question has been asked she's had much the same answer she's had here; more easy paced volume and increase the longest session beyond 5K.
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