Stronglifts and Bulking

mantium999

A quick question for those more knowledgable than myself. I have been haphazardly lifting for about 9 months or so, not really following any specific program. I have decided that a structured program like Stronglifts is probably a better solution. Additionally, I am looking to gain about 10-15 lbs from my current weight. I would like to know if it makes sense to start increasing my calorie intake during the first few weeks of Stronglifts, or if I should wait until the lifts become heavier and more difficult. I understand from Stronglifts that the purpose of starting light is to make sure form is solid before the weight gets heavy, and I am concerned that by not using heavy enough weight and increasing calories at the same time that those extra calories may get stored as fat rather than being utilized to build muscle. Thoughts and opinions?

AJ_G

Increase calories now, your body needs an energy surplus to build muscle. "Heavy" is a relative term which means different things for different people depending on their strength level. As long as you're lifting in the low to medium rep range (6-12 reps) to failure, then you're lifting heavy. If you're concerned about adding too much fat, eat at TDEE + 10% which is a safe place to bulk at with minimal fat gain.

mantium999

Thanks for your reply. I realize that "heavy" is relative, which I why my question arose. The early stages of Stronglifts are not heavy to me, which now makes me wonder if I should start Stronglifts with more weight than just the bar. Using just the bar, for bench and squats for example, I could easily surpass 12 reps.

AJ_G

Thanks for your reply. I realize that "heavy" is relative, which I why my question arose. The early stages of Stronglifts are not heavy to me, which now makes me wonder if I should start Stronglifts with more weight than just the bar. Using just the bar, for bench and squats for example, I could easily surpass 12 reps.

I've never done any lifting programs, I've always just developed my own, and had great results. When I started lifting, I could barely put up 185 lbs on the bench press once, now I can rep 225 six times, and I've only been seriously lifting for about 6 months. The problem I have with programs like stronglifts is that any time you're given a set number of reps to complete and stop, you're shorting yourself because you could have done more. I rep to failure on every set I do, that's how you signal your muscles that they need to grow. As you get stronger, increase the weight so that you're always failing between 6 and 12 reps. If you can do more than 12 reps, then increase the weight, if you can't quite do 6 reps, then your weight is too heavy.

JNick77

Yeah, you probably could bulk a little on SL5x5 but it's probably not ideal. If your goals are purely size then look-up some kind of high-volume training. If you want strength and size there are many ways, 5/3/1 (grab the Beyond version), the Cube to gain size and strength. Of course the diet has to be in order.

SideSteel

The problem I have with programs like stronglifts is that any time you're given a set number of reps to complete and stop, you're shorting yourself because you could have done more. I rep to failure on every set I do, that's how you signal your muscles that they need to grow.

I'm not sure if you're implying that training to failure is a requirement for growth but if so, I would disagree with that.

One can apply the principles of progressive loading over time while not training to failure and you can still gain both mass and strength.

SideSteel

To the OP:

I understand your concerns.

If I were in your position and if I'm understanding you correctly I would do one of two things:

1) Slowly increase calories over the next couple of weeks as the training load reaches weights that are more in line with what you would call "heavy" relative your strength levels.

2) Keep your accessory volume and intensity on the higher end if you're concerned that you're not getting adequate stimulus with your main lifts for the time being.

timbrom

If you're ready to get serious, grab the book Starting Strength by Mark Rippetoe, and more importantly, get Practical Programming for Strength Training, also by Rippetoe and Kilgore.

Starting strength is geared towards teaching the "Big 5" lifts, squats, deadlifts, bench press, overhead press and power clean. It also has some general programming advice and assistance exercises, but it's definitely geared towards a new lifter. Practical programming provides a wealth information about what different numbers of reps and sets stress in your body and how your body responds to it, why going to failure is NOT always a good idea (depending on your goals), all sorts of interesting stuff that anyone who is ready to get serious needs to know.

Starting strength also doesn't necessarily have you starting out with just the bar if you've been lifting (neither does stronglifts, for that matter). Starting strength will also have you progress faster at first (10, even 15 lbs per workout vs. stronglifts 5 lbs) if you can keep good form and recover in time for the next workout.

BeachGingerOnTheRocks

If you're new to lifting and doing Stronglifts to find your baseline strength or to use for the next few months, then start your gain really slowly.

If you're bulking with the intent of adding serious mass to your frame, then you should read a few books, but start with Starting Strength.

Can you bulk on Stronglifts? Sure. The original natural bodybuilders did total body programs that were based around the four major lifts. http://www.muscleandstrength.com/articles/forget-steroids-5-fullbody-workouts-for-serious-gains.html

As far as nutrition, go up slowly. A couple hundred calories above maintenance to start, then work your way up to a pound a week. Particularly if you want your gains to be more muscle and not as much fat.

DopeItUp

The problem I have with programs like stronglifts is that any time you're given a set number of reps to complete and stop, you're shorting yourself because you could have done more. I rep to failure on every set I do, that's how you signal your muscles that they need to grow.

Incorrect. Progressive loading is the key to strength and mass gains. Repping to failure is not a requirement.

ritchiedrama

The problem I have with programs like stronglifts is that any time you're given a set number of reps to complete and stop, you're shorting yourself because you could have done more. I rep to failure on every set I do, that's how you signal your muscles that they need to grow.

Incorrect. Progressive loading is the key to strength and mass gains. Repping to failure is not a requirement.

+1

ElliottTN

Start eating up those calories man but make sure you still keep track of your micros even on a bulk. It is inevitable that some of your surplus calories will be used for fat storage. It is just the way your body works man. Thus the cut after the bulk.

As a side note: I am insanely jealous of you right now. 10 more pounds of my cut to go then I get to join you in the awesome world of bulking. I can't wait.

FrnkLft

Download the Stronglifts excell spreadsheet. It has a formula to determine where you should start. Chances are it's not the bar.

mantium999

Download the Stronglifts excell spreadsheet. It has a formula to determine where you should start. Chances are it's not the bar.

thanks for the idea.

mantium999

To the OP:

I understand your concerns.

If I were in your position and if I'm understanding you correctly I would do one of two things:

1) Slowly increase calories over the next couple of weeks as the training load reaches weights that are more in line with what you would call "heavy" relative your strength levels.

2) Keep your accessory volume and intensity on the higher end if you're concerned that you're not getting adequate stimulus with your main lifts for the time being.

thanks, what do you suggest by way of accessory work? My understanding was to limit additional work while running a Stronglifts/Starting Strength type program

PikaKnight

Thanks for your reply. I realize that "heavy" is relative, which I why my question arose. The early stages of Stronglifts are not heavy to me, which now makes me wonder if I should start Stronglifts with more weight than just the bar. Using just the bar, for bench and squats for example, I could easily surpass 12 reps.

Did you actually read the pdf for stronglifts or did you take what people have said and tried to make up a routine?

SideSteel

To the OP:

I understand your concerns.

If I were in your position and if I'm understanding you correctly I would do one of two things:

1) Slowly increase calories over the next couple of weeks as the training load reaches weights that are more in line with what you would call "heavy" relative your strength levels.

2) Keep your accessory volume and intensity on the higher end if you're concerned that you're not getting adequate stimulus with your main lifts for the time being.

thanks, what do you suggest by way of accessory work? My understanding was to limit additional work while running a Stronglifts/Starting Strength type program

This is a potential issue with choosing these programs in that the primary goal of Starting Strength is to get you very strong, very fast. That's also why you'll hear GOMAD advocated. Rippetoe isn't necessarily concerned about abs.

I didn't type that thought out very well. They are both fine programs. They are strength programs, and you will also gain some muscle while doing these programs. If your primary goal is strength, they're awesome.

If your primary goal is hypertrophy, they are still pretty good, but with this specific goal I'd either consider a different basic routine that's just a bit more hypertrophy oriented like All-Pros: (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843&page=1) or I would consider adding assist volume to compensate.

The other reason I mentioned adding assist volume was that you're in a position that the barbell lifts are currently quite light.

At some point, you may reach a place where the barbell lifts are so demanding that the accessory work starts to interfere and then you'd have the option of dropping that out.

mantium999

To the OP:

I understand your concerns.

If I were in your position and if I'm understanding you correctly I would do one of two things:

1) Slowly increase calories over the next couple of weeks as the training load reaches weights that are more in line with what you would call "heavy" relative your strength levels.

2) Keep your accessory volume and intensity on the higher end if you're concerned that you're not getting adequate stimulus with your main lifts for the time being.

thanks, what do you suggest by way of accessory work? My understanding was to limit additional work while running a Stronglifts/Starting Strength type program

This is a potential issue with choosing these programs in that the primary goal of Starting Strength is to get you very strong, very fast. That's also why you'll hear GOMAD advocated. Rippetoe isn't necessarily concerned about abs.

I didn't type that thought out very well. They are both fine programs. They are strength programs, and you will also gain some muscle while doing these programs. If your primary goal is strength, they're awesome.

If your primary goal is hypertrophy, they are still pretty good, but with this specific goal I'd either consider a different basic routine that's just a bit more hypertrophy oriented like All-Pros: (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843&page=1) or I would consider adding assist volume to compensate.

The other reason I mentioned adding assist volume was that you're in a position that the barbell lifts are currently quite light.

At some point, you may reach a place where the barbell lifts are so demanding that the accessory work starts to interfere and then you'd have the option of dropping that out.

Thank you for the All-Pro link. I would say my objective is more hypertrophy based than strength based, always been thin and while that used to be good for when I was active in distance cycling, now that I don't ride anymore I would like to add some meat to my frame, so to speak. You have been a great help.

SideSteel

To the OP:

I understand your concerns.

If I were in your position and if I'm understanding you correctly I would do one of two things:

1) Slowly increase calories over the next couple of weeks as the training load reaches weights that are more in line with what you would call "heavy" relative your strength levels.

2) Keep your accessory volume and intensity on the higher end if you're concerned that you're not getting adequate stimulus with your main lifts for the time being.

thanks, what do you suggest by way of accessory work? My understanding was to limit additional work while running a Stronglifts/Starting Strength type program

This is a potential issue with choosing these programs in that the primary goal of Starting Strength is to get you very strong, very fast. That's also why you'll hear GOMAD advocated. Rippetoe isn't necessarily concerned about abs.

I didn't type that thought out very well. They are both fine programs. They are strength programs, and you will also gain some muscle while doing these programs. If your primary goal is strength, they're awesome.

If your primary goal is hypertrophy, they are still pretty good, but with this specific goal I'd either consider a different basic routine that's just a bit more hypertrophy oriented like All-Pros: (http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=4195843&page=1) or I would consider adding assist volume to compensate.

The other reason I mentioned adding assist volume was that you're in a position that the barbell lifts are currently quite light.

At some point, you may reach a place where the barbell lifts are so demanding that the accessory work starts to interfere and then you'd have the option of dropping that out.

Thank you for the All-Pro link. I would say my objective is more hypertrophy based than strength based, always been thin and while that used to be good for when I was active in distance cycling, now that I don't ride anymore I would like to add some meat to my frame, so to speak. You have been a great help.

No problem. For what it's worth, I would still read Rippetoe's material mentioned earlier in this thread, even if you don't do SS. He's got a lot of great things to say.

Yogi_Carl

I'm interested to read that you don't need to take each set to failure in order to promote growth in strength/muscle mass. I have always thought each set needed to go to failure to signal the need for growth, so this could be a new approach for me to promote gains while enabling my body to recover sooner.

I wonder though - how do you know when to up the weight or do one more rep if you don't take it to failure? I suppose you just develop a feel for when you have just maybe one or two more reps in the bag and that's when to finish the set?

SideSteel

I suppose you just develop a feel for when you have just maybe one or two more reps in the bag and that's when to finish the set?

^ Pretty much that.

Training to absolute failure can impair recovery. Training to failure can negatively impact total workload during that particular workout. Those would be a few reasons that I'd opt to "not" train to failure "most of the time".

DopeItUp

I wonder though - how do you know when to up the weight or do one more rep if you don't take it to failure? I suppose you just develop a feel for when you have just maybe one or two more reps in the bag and that's when to finish the set?

Pretty much. Or you just follow a prescribed routine that has weight increases at particular intervals (depends on the routine). Usually these programs will account for failure and will have you deload/reset weight if you start failing consistently. Typically you would deload around 10% for your next workout and work your way back up following the normal weight increase interval.

Myself, I prefer this type of routine. If I go by my "feeling" then I tend to wimp out too early. Following a routine that tells me to increase weight by 5lbs, I just go for it even if I feel I can't. I have lifted much more weight than I ever thought I could do sometimes. Or hell, sometimes I go way too far and hurt myself (too big of a jump in weight). I just follow a routine now, keeps it simple and prevents wussiness and/or bravado (depends on the day and on the exercise) from screwing with my workouts.

JNick77

Going to failure all the time is definitely not a requirement for hypertrophy or getting stronger. To the contrary, going to failure all the time can actually be counter-productive over time. Not to say that you shouldn't do it sometimes, but definitely not all the time. Even powerlifters don't train to failure that frequently and you can't argue the amount of strength they carry.

mantium999

I wonder though - how do you know when to up the weight or do one more rep if you don't take it to failure? I suppose you just develop a feel for when you have just maybe one or two more reps in the bag and that's when to finish the set?

Pretty much. Or you just follow a prescribed routine that has weight increases at particular intervals (depends on the routine). Usually these programs will account for failure and will have you deload/reset weight if you start failing consistently. Typically you would deload around 10% for your next workout and work your way back up following the normal weight increase interval.

Myself, I prefer this type of routine. If I go by my "feeling" then I tend to wimp out too early. Following a routine that tells me to increase weight by 5lbs, I just go for it even if I feel I can't. I have lifted much more weight than I ever thought I could do sometimes. Or hell, sometimes I go way too far and hurt myself (too big of a jump in weight). I just follow a routine now, keeps it simple and prevents wussiness and/or bravado (depends on the day and on the exercise) from screwing with my workouts.

This pretty much sums up why I am looking to start a prescribed routine. Sometimes I just need to be told what to do and when to do it. Is there a routine you are particularly fond of?

DopeItUp

I wonder though - how do you know when to up the weight or do one more rep if you don't take it to failure? I suppose you just develop a feel for when you have just maybe one or two more reps in the bag and that's when to finish the set?

Pretty much. Or you just follow a prescribed routine that has weight increases at particular intervals (depends on the routine). Usually these programs will account for failure and will have you deload/reset weight if you start failing consistently. Typically you would deload around 10% for your next workout and work your way back up following the normal weight increase interval.

Myself, I prefer this type of routine. If I go by my "feeling" then I tend to wimp out too early. Following a routine that tells me to increase weight by 5lbs, I just go for it even if I feel I can't. I have lifted much more weight than I ever thought I could do sometimes. Or hell, sometimes I go way too far and hurt myself (too big of a jump in weight). I just follow a routine now, keeps it simple and prevents wussiness and/or bravado (depends on the day and on the exercise) from screwing with my workouts.

This pretty much sums up why I am looking to start a prescribed routine. Sometimes I just need to be told what to do and when to do it. Is there a routine you are particularly fond of?

I used Stronglifts as my first real routine. I liked it a lot. Using the free spreadsheet he provides it tells you exactly how much weight and how many sets and reps to do each day. He has specific instructions on what to do when you start failing as well. It's simple and straightforward. Perfect beginner program, IMO.

I moved on to Madcow 5x5 after that (basically a more advanced version of SS 5x5 with some built-in periodization) and will probably be moving on from that to Wendler's 5/3/1 BBB in the coming weeks (I've reached a point where I'm more of an intermediate lifter now and can't move up in weight as fast as Madcow prescribes, especially while in a caloric deficit).

mantium999

I wonder though - how do you know when to up the weight or do one more rep if you don't take it to failure? I suppose you just develop a feel for when you have just maybe one or two more reps in the bag and that's when to finish the set?

Pretty much. Or you just follow a prescribed routine that has weight increases at particular intervals (depends on the routine). Usually these programs will account for failure and will have you deload/reset weight if you start failing consistently. Typically you would deload around 10% for your next workout and work your way back up following the normal weight increase interval.

Myself, I prefer this type of routine. If I go by my "feeling" then I tend to wimp out too early. Following a routine that tells me to increase weight by 5lbs, I just go for it even if I feel I can't. I have lifted much more weight than I ever thought I could do sometimes. Or hell, sometimes I go way too far and hurt myself (too big of a jump in weight). I just follow a routine now, keeps it simple and prevents wussiness and/or bravado (depends on the day and on the exercise) from screwing with my workouts.

This pretty much sums up why I am looking to start a prescribed routine. Sometimes I just need to be told what to do and when to do it. Is there a routine you are particularly fond of?

I used Stronglifts as my first real routine. I liked it a lot. Using the free spreadsheet he provides it tells you exactly how much weight and how many sets and reps to do each day. He has specific instructions on what to do when you start failing as well. It's simple and straightforward. Perfect beginner program, IMO.

I moved on to Madcow 5x5 after that (basically a more advanced version of SS 5x5 with some built-in periodization) and will probably be moving on from that to Wendler's 5/3/1 BBB in the coming weeks (I've reached a point where I'm more of an intermediate lifter now and can't move up in weight as fast as Madcow prescribes, especially while in a caloric deficit).

Thanks