Sports nutrition for endurance athlethes

dpasslow
dpasslow Posts: 2 Member
edited November 2024 in Health and Weight Loss
When training i usually eat 5 times a day, carbs rule and most of the time my biggest problem is getting enough of them. Lately I've noticed that ketosis is being sold as the next big thing and i am amazed ? Ketosis training works for body builders or anyone looking to lose weight I imagine, in the past i have used keto sticks to monitor my progress in weight loss.... but it is not the thing for endurance, for endurance carbs rule
So ...... what's your take on this ?
«1

Replies

  • Packerjohn
    Packerjohn Posts: 4,855 Member
    edited January 2018
    For the vast majority of people, balanced diet, appropriate calories, macros in the ranges recommended by UDSA Dietary Guidelines for Americans. Endurance athletes edge toward the higher % of the range for carbs, Get your micros.

    Get the vast majority of these items from real food as opposed to supplements.
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    Amazed is the right word! As is sceptical...

    Yes keto works for weight loss as well as any other method of calorie restriction for weight loss - but no better than others when protein and calories are matched.

    But for endurance sports and also any sport involving bursts of power carbs are king. Which of course is why at the elite level keto athletes are a tiny minority. Even those touted (or claimed by keto evangelists) as being keto athletes eat an awful lot of carbs timed strategically around not just their events but also their training.

    Keto may allow someone to access their fat stores slightly better but it also reduces the ability to use carbs - they become carb impaired. Also as fat is a less efficient fuel than carbs to burn you also have to work harder (increased oxygen demand, HR and respiration) for the same speed/power. If your goal is simply to complete an endurance event it's not really significant but if you are interested in performance it certainly is.

    There's a whole section about ketogenic diets in here with a multitude of links to studies....
    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0174-y

    In general, fat doesn't have the oxidation rates to keep up with carbs but keto adapted athlete have shown to be able to oxidize fat at a similar rate. That being said, as you note the number of elite athletes who are competing in keto isn't particularly convincing in either endurance or strength based sports.
  • deannalfisher
    deannalfisher Posts: 5,600 Member
    endurance triathlete here - give me carbs all day long...until i see peer reviewed research on the long-term effects of keto on endurance athletes i won't be switching to that. There are many folks in several of the triathlon groups i'm part of that spout that crap - and it drives me bonkers, because if you questions them or ask for research they can never actually provide it
  • dpasslow
    dpasslow Posts: 2 Member
    Happy to hear that we are in agreement. Like mentioned above it seems there are a small percentage preaching keto training as a good thing for endurance athletes. I race IM and even in triathlon circles there is always one banging on about how awesome it is.... I can only assume it is to increase thier Instagram follows
  • russelljam08
    russelljam08 Posts: 167 Member
    Carbs are king. It doesn't matter what the zealots who own "keto" companies say. Fat adapted is great for things under 70% VO2 max, which is the amount of endurance you'll need to play shuffleboard with grandma. For any real activity, carbs are king. Any sports physiologist(people with ACTUAL domain knowledge) will school you on it.
  • __TMac__
    __TMac__ Posts: 1,669 Member
    The only thing I’ve heard about it that makes sense to me is that eating a little lower carb in the off-season can help suppress appetite if you’re looking to drop a few pounds. But not while training intensely.
  • Packerjohn
    Packerjohn Posts: 4,855 Member
    russelljam08 wrote: »
    Carbs are king. It doesn't matter what the zealots who own "keto" companies say. Fat adapted is great for things under 70% VO2 max, which is the amount of endurance you'll need to play shuffleboard with grandma. For any real activity, carbs are king. Any sports physiologist(people with ACTUAL domain knowledge) will school you on it.

    Agree with idea of carbs for high level endurance activity. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration though:

    When you race, you don’t run at some arbitrary intensity. The percentages of your VO2max and lactate threshold you can sustain for a specific amount of time are predictable. The longer the race, the lower the per cent VO2max at which you’ll run it. Research has shown that VO2max pace can be sustained for only about eight to 10 minutes. Talented, highly-trained runners therefore race 3,000 meters at 100 percent VO2max, 5,000 meters at 90 to 95 percent VO2max, and a marathon at 80 to 85 percent VO2max (about 95 percent of lactate threshold).

    https://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/the-errors-of-our-running-ways

    When talented runners are running marathons at 80% VO2 max, I'm pretty sure 70% is a higher effort than suffleboard with grandma.
  • russelljam08
    russelljam08 Posts: 167 Member
    Packerjohn wrote: »
    russelljam08 wrote: »
    Carbs are king. It doesn't matter what the zealots who own "keto" companies say. Fat adapted is great for things under 70% VO2 max, which is the amount of endurance you'll need to play shuffleboard with grandma. For any real activity, carbs are king. Any sports physiologist(people with ACTUAL domain knowledge) will school you on it.

    Agree with idea of carbs for high level endurance activity. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration though:

    When you race, you don’t run at some arbitrary intensity. The percentages of your VO2max and lactate threshold you can sustain for a specific amount of time are predictable. The longer the race, the lower the per cent VO2max at which you’ll run it. Research has shown that VO2max pace can be sustained for only about eight to 10 minutes. Talented, highly-trained runners therefore race 3,000 meters at 100 percent VO2max, 5,000 meters at 90 to 95 percent VO2max, and a marathon at 80 to 85 percent VO2max (about 95 percent of lactate threshold).

    https://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/the-errors-of-our-running-ways

    When talented runners are running marathons at 80% VO2 max, I'm pretty sure 70% is a higher effort than suffleboard with grandma.

    Not according to Alex Viada(one of those pesky undergrad degrees in BioChem and Masters of physiology):
    "A word on “fat adaptation for the endurance athlete” - this is an idea that
    has been floated for several years now, with the notion that consuming
    high fat low carbohydrate diets will alter the individual’s metabolism and
    allow them to perform for hours on pure fat metabolism.

    There are even studies that back this up- at 70% of VO2 max, “fat
    adapted” athletes performed slightly better than carbohydrate fed athletes.
    As many individuals know, however, 70% of VO2 max is approximately the
    same level of challenge as playing shuffleboard with a particularly saucy
    nonagenarian     - at ultra low intensities (say, a 100 mile run), this is a viable
    method. For all higher levels of exertion, however, the fat adapted athletes
    had far less peak power, sustained power, and they generally fall flat on
    their faces. In actual race conditions, this is not ideal - the fact is, after
    training well over 300 athletes, the author has yet to encounter a single
    high performing “fat adapted” athlete. Carbohydrates are, and always will
    be, the single best fuel for endurance activity, and if the reader disagrees,
    he or she is welcome to write their own book."
    The Hybrid Athlete pg. 178
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    Packerjohn wrote: »
    russelljam08 wrote: »
    Carbs are king. It doesn't matter what the zealots who own "keto" companies say. Fat adapted is great for things under 70% VO2 max, which is the amount of endurance you'll need to play shuffleboard with grandma. For any real activity, carbs are king. Any sports physiologist(people with ACTUAL domain knowledge) will school you on it.

    Agree with idea of carbs for high level endurance activity. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration though:

    When you race, you don’t run at some arbitrary intensity. The percentages of your VO2max and lactate threshold you can sustain for a specific amount of time are predictable. The longer the race, the lower the per cent VO2max at which you’ll run it. Research has shown that VO2max pace can be sustained for only about eight to 10 minutes. Talented, highly-trained runners therefore race 3,000 meters at 100 percent VO2max, 5,000 meters at 90 to 95 percent VO2max, and a marathon at 80 to 85 percent VO2max (about 95 percent of lactate threshold).

    https://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/the-errors-of-our-running-ways

    When talented runners are running marathons at 80% VO2 max, I'm pretty sure 70% is a higher effort than suffleboard with grandma.

    LOL No kidding.
  • Packerjohn
    Packerjohn Posts: 4,855 Member
    russelljam08 wrote: »
    Packerjohn wrote: »
    russelljam08 wrote: »
    Carbs are king. It doesn't matter what the zealots who own "keto" companies say. Fat adapted is great for things under 70% VO2 max, which is the amount of endurance you'll need to play shuffleboard with grandma. For any real activity, carbs are king. Any sports physiologist(people with ACTUAL domain knowledge) will school you on it.

    Agree with idea of carbs for high level endurance activity. Maybe a bit of an exaggeration though:

    When you race, you don’t run at some arbitrary intensity. The percentages of your VO2max and lactate threshold you can sustain for a specific amount of time are predictable. The longer the race, the lower the per cent VO2max at which you’ll run it. Research has shown that VO2max pace can be sustained for only about eight to 10 minutes. Talented, highly-trained runners therefore race 3,000 meters at 100 percent VO2max, 5,000 meters at 90 to 95 percent VO2max, and a marathon at 80 to 85 percent VO2max (about 95 percent of lactate threshold).

    https://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/the-errors-of-our-running-ways

    When talented runners are running marathons at 80% VO2 max, I'm pretty sure 70% is a higher effort than suffleboard with grandma.

    Not according to Alex Viada(one of those pesky undergrad degrees in BioChem and Masters of physiology):
    "A word on “fat adaptation for the endurance athlete” - this is an idea that
    has been floated for several years now, with the notion that consuming
    high fat low carbohydrate diets will alter the individual’s metabolism and
    allow them to perform for hours on pure fat metabolism.

    There are even studies that back this up- at 70% of VO2 max, “fat
    adapted” athletes performed slightly better than carbohydrate fed athletes.
    As many individuals know, however, 70% of VO2 max is approximately the
    same level of challenge as playing shuffleboard with a particularly saucy
    nonagenarian     - at ultra low intensities (say, a 100 mile run), this is a viable
    method.     For all higher levels of exertion, however, the fat adapted athletes
    had far less peak power, sustained power, and they generally fall flat on
    their faces. In actual race conditions, this is not ideal - the fact is, after
    training well over 300 athletes, the author has yet to encounter a single
    high performing “fat adapted” athlete. Carbohydrates are, and always will
    be, the single best fuel for endurance activity, and if the reader disagrees,
    he or she is welcome to write their own book."
    The Hybrid Athlete pg. 178

    So are you say people are running a 100 mile ultra a the same level of VO2 as someone playing shuffleboard with granny?
  • Wheelhouse15
    Wheelhouse15 Posts: 5,575 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    Wheelhouse15 wrote: »
    sijomial wrote: »
    Amazed is the right word! As is sceptical...

    Yes keto works for weight loss as well as any other method of calorie restriction for weight loss - but no better than others when protein and calories are matched.

    But for endurance sports and also any sport involving bursts of power carbs are king. Which of course is why at the elite level keto athletes are a tiny minority. Even those touted (or claimed by keto evangelists) as being keto athletes eat an awful lot of carbs timed strategically around not just their events but also their training.

    Keto may allow someone to access their fat stores slightly better but it also reduces the ability to use carbs - they become carb impaired. Also as fat is a less efficient fuel than carbs to burn you also have to work harder (increased oxygen demand, HR and respiration) for the same speed/power. If your goal is simply to complete an endurance event it's not really significant but if you are interested in performance it certainly is.

    There's a whole section about ketogenic diets in here with a multitude of links to studies....
    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0174-y

    In general, fat doesn't have the oxidation rates to keep up with carbs but keto adapted athlete have shown to be able to oxidize fat at a similar rate. That being said, as you note the number of elite athletes who are competing in keto isn't particularly convincing in either endurance or strength based sports.

    The fat oxidation rates achieved can be markedly higher - but that is with a performance penalty, it's not actually a benefit unless someone is doing an event where the intensity is kept only at moderate levels and there's no food available.
    But then their endurance would be limited by hydration needs just like a non-keto athlete.

    Alan Aragon - “You can’t access that energy as quickly. With fat, you have a bigger pool of energy, but you can only drain it with a straw. With carbs, the pool is smaller but you can drain it with a firehose.”

    Apparently, ultras seem to be one of those places that this works.
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
    Good read, thanks everyone.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    ...Beware "motivated reasoning" by some keto fans - seeking out information to support their view rather than seeking information to formulate a view.

    The real cutting edge in sports nutrition is in using all fuels better, not in radically limiting the most powerful fuel.

    Just waiting for somebody to bring up Chris Froome.

    Some keto people hold him up as the poster child for endurance athletes on keto. What they don't realize is that in reality, he does some ketogenic training to help with efficiency in fat mobilization/utilization, but relies heavily upon carbs while racing.
  • Orphia
    Orphia Posts: 7,097 Member
    This is a great thread. Thanks for the insight, people.

    I've been looking for actual science behind the idea that "keto/low-carb makes you fat-adapted".

    Isn't it just that they eat fat, therefore they burn "fat", tied in with some who are in a calorie deficit, and therefore have to burn body fat?

    And when doing endurance, they feel like *kitten* and are hitting the wall the whole time?

    The "accessing it through a straw" analogy is great.

    It just seems to be that people say you can "train your body to run on fat" is somehow imagining your body can change the laws of physics/biology by sheer pig-headedness about a fad diet.

    Kind of like how people believe "your body gets used to your workouts" and that's why they're not losing weight.

    The body doesn't have a separate brain for changing the laws of energy.

  • Orphia
    Orphia Posts: 7,097 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    [..]There's a whole section about ketogenic diets in here with a multitude of links to studies....
    https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12970-017-0174-y

    I'll quote the section:

    "An area of growing interest is the effect of KD on athletic performance. Since training capacity has the potential to affect body composition, the effect of KD on exercise performance warrants discussion. Carbohydrate restriction combined with high fat intake to become fat-adapted (or ketoadapted) is a tactic that attempts to improve performance by increasing the body’s reliance on fat as fuel, thereby sparing/decreasing glycogen use, which ostensibly could improve athletic performance. However, in contrast to the proposed benefits of fat-adaptation on performance, Havemann et al. [72] found that 7 days of a high-fat diet (68%) followed by 1 day of high-CHO diet (90%) expectedly increased fat oxidation, but decreased 1-km sprint power output in well-trained cyclists. Stellingwerff et al. [73] compared substrate utilization, glycogenolysis, and enzymatic activity from either 5 days of a high-fat diet (67%) or high-CHO (70%) followed by one day of high-CHO with no training, followed by experimental trials on the seventh day. The high-fat diet increased fat oxidation, but also lowered pyruvate dehydrogenase activity and decreased glycogenolysis. These results provide a mechanistic explanation for the impairment in high-intensity work output as a result of high-fat, CHO-restricted diets [62, 65, 67]. Recently, an ergolytic effect from ketoadaptation has been observed at lower intensities as well. Burke et al. [74] reported that after 3 weeks on a KD at a slight energy deficit, elite race walkers showed increased fat oxidation and aerobic capacity. However, this was accompanied by a reduction in exercise economy (increased oxygen demand for a given speed). The linear and non-linear high-CHO diets in the comparison both caused significant performance improvements, while no significant improvement was seen in the KD (there was a nonsignificant performance decrease). It is notable that Paoli et al. [75] found no decrease in bodyweight-based strength performance in elite artistic gymnasts during 30 days of KD. Furthermore, the KD resulted in significant loss of FM (1.9 kg) and non-significant gain of LM (0.3 kg). However, unlike Burke et al.’s study, which equated protein between groups (~2.2 g/kg), Paoli et al.’s protein intakes were skewed in favor of the KD (2.9 vs. 1.2 g/kg). Wilson et al. [56] recently reported similar increases in strength and power in a protein and calorie-matched comparison of a KD and a Western diet model, suggesting that KD might have less ergolytic potential for strength training than it does for endurance training."
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    I think a large benefit for fat adapted athletes is never hitting the wall. The brain is not ever starved for fuel because glucose is being used elsewhere. The brain uses ketones very very well.

    I do think it is silly to argue keto athletes cannot use glucose for fuel or athletes on a higher carb diet won't use fat. Athletes use both. Some athletes may find training keto works best but others may prefer higher carb training. Low carb obviously works very well for some athletes. Higher carb obviously works well for some athletes. Ten or so years from now after a few more athletes have switched between the two woes, we may know if one is superior. Most likely both together are best.

    I think it is Peter Attia who called carbs a performance enhancing "drug". It may help with performance, sure. Ketogenic athletes do eat carbs. Carbs are not all or nothing. Metabolically healthy, active people can eat well over 100-200g of carbs and stay ketogenic if they time their carbs around activity. I think a good question really is quantity. When is it too much of a good thing? When is it too little for the athletes to be at their best? My guess is optimum carb intake will vary between athletes and their sports.

    Are ingested carbs needed for one to perform and thrive? No. Can a certain amount they help an athlete improve their performances? Sure. Will a fat adapted athlete be better able to avoid hitting the wall? Sure. Does a fat adapted athlete eat carbs? Yes. There is no black and white here, IMO.
  • russelljam08
    russelljam08 Posts: 167 Member
    Don't need to worry about a wall when moving at the speed of grandma. Physiology is a difficult subject to grasp with a cognitively impaired glucose starved brain just struggling to survive.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    russelljam08 wrote: »
    Don't need to worry about a wall when moving at the speed of grandma. Physiology is a difficult subject to grasp with a cognitively impaired glucose starved brain just struggling to survive.

    Hmm.

    I am sure that by now you've read something about the cognitive treatments that ketones, and LCHF offers people whether for dementia, brain injury, epilepsy or just simple cognitive improvements. Anything?
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I think a large benefit for fat adapted athletes is never hitting the wall. The brain is not ever starved for fuel because glucose is being used elsewhere. The brain uses ketones very very well.

    I do think it is silly to argue keto athletes cannot use glucose for fuel or athletes on a higher carb diet won't use fat. Athletes use both. Some athletes may find training keto works best but others may prefer higher carb training. Low carb obviously works very well for some athletes. Higher carb obviously works well for some athletes. Ten or so years from now after a few more athletes have switched between the two woes, we may know if one is superior. Most likely both together are best.

    I think it is Peter Attia who called carbs a performance enhancing "drug". It may help with performance, sure. Ketogenic athletes do eat carbs. Carbs are not all or nothing. Metabolically healthy, active people can eat well over 100-200g of carbs and stay ketogenic if they time their carbs around activity. I think a good question really is quantity. When is it too much of a good thing? When is it too little for the athletes to be at their best? My guess is optimum carb intake will vary between athletes and their sports.

    Are ingested carbs needed for one to perform and thrive? No. Can a certain amount they help an athlete improve their performances? Sure. Will a fat adapted athlete be better able to avoid hitting the wall? Sure. Does a fat adapted athlete eat carbs? Yes. There is no black and white here, IMO.

    Wishful thinking!
    (As someone who doesn't do endurance sports and when you did "a handful of raisins" seemed to be the limit of your interest in sports nutrition I wonder why you are so invested in the subject?)

    You got this half right so that's something....
    "I do think it is silly to argue keto athletes cannot use glucose for fuel or athletes on a higher carb diet won't use fat."
    The bit you got wrong is that no-one is saying keto athletes can't use carbs - what is being said is that they use carbs less well (lowered pyruvate dehydrogenase) than someone with a higher carb intake.
    Of course athletes use both fat and carbs for fuel, that's not the issue. And keto is just one way that athletes get better at fat oxidation, but a way with a big downside - carb impairment.

    "Higher carb obviously works well for some the vast majority of athletes" - FIFY

    "Are ingested carbs needed for one to perform and thrive? No"
    Can you perform on no carb? Yes of course - just not optimally, so no that's not thriving.

    The one thing you got right is "Most likely both together are best" - and keto is not that!

  • mmapags
    mmapags Posts: 8,934 Member
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I think a large benefit for fat adapted athletes is never hitting the wall. The brain is not ever starved for fuel because glucose is being used elsewhere. The brain uses ketones very very well.

    I do think it is silly to argue keto athletes cannot use glucose for fuel or athletes on a higher carb diet won't use fat. Athletes use both. Some athletes may find training keto works best but others may prefer higher carb training. Low carb obviously works very well for some athletes. Higher carb obviously works well for some athletes. Ten or so years from now after a few more athletes have switched between the two woes, we may know if one is superior. Most likely both together are best.

    I think it is Peter Attia who called carbs a performance enhancing "drug". It may help with performance, sure. Ketogenic athletes do eat carbs. Carbs are not all or nothing. Metabolically healthy, active people can eat well over 100-200g of carbs and stay ketogenic if they time their carbs around activity. I think a good question really is quantity. When is it too much of a good thing? When is it too little for the athletes to be at their best? My guess is optimum carb intake will vary between athletes and their sports.

    Are ingested carbs needed for one to perform and thrive? No. Can a certain amount they help an athlete improve their performances? Sure. Will a fat adapted athlete be better able to avoid hitting the wall? Sure. Does a fat adapted athlete eat carbs? Yes. There is no black and white here, IMO.

    You consistently come into these types of threads with these vague, amorphous claims but never post a single peer reviewed study that demonstrates any of what you claim. A quote from Attia? Come on!
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    @mmapags
    Now holding my breath for the study by the two scientists with vested interests in a keto business where they gathered elite athletes together for a trial where they only looked at some metabolic adaptations but didn't publish any performance data.....

    Seems a very odd omission to me. If I was an elite athlete rates of fat oxidation would be a very minor interest compared to what happened to my performance.
  • AnvilHead
    AnvilHead Posts: 18,343 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    @mmapags
    Now holding my breath for the study by the two scientists with vested interests in a keto business where they gathered elite athletes together for a trial where they only looked at some metabolic adaptations but didn't publish any performance data.....

    Seems a very odd omission to me. If I was an elite athlete rates of fat oxidation would be a very minor interest compared to what happened to my performance.
    Not if you were cherry-picking data points in an effort to further an agenda. Just sayin'.
  • nvmomketo
    nvmomketo Posts: 12,019 Member
    sijomial wrote: »
    nvmomketo wrote: »
    I think a large benefit for fat adapted athletes is never hitting the wall. The brain is not ever starved for fuel because glucose is being used elsewhere. The brain uses ketones very very well.

    I do think it is silly to argue keto athletes cannot use glucose for fuel or athletes on a higher carb diet won't use fat. Athletes use both. Some athletes may find training keto works best but others may prefer higher carb training. Low carb obviously works very well for some athletes. Higher carb obviously works well for some athletes. Ten or so years from now after a few more athletes have switched between the two woes, we may know if one is superior. Most likely both together are best.

    I think it is Peter Attia who called carbs a performance enhancing "drug". It may help with performance, sure. Ketogenic athletes do eat carbs. Carbs are not all or nothing. Metabolically healthy, active people can eat well over 100-200g of carbs and stay ketogenic if they time their carbs around activity. I think a good question really is quantity. When is it too much of a good thing? When is it too little for the athletes to be at their best? My guess is optimum carb intake will vary between athletes and their sports.

    Are ingested carbs needed for one to perform and thrive? No. Can a certain amount they help an athlete improve their performances? Sure. Will a fat adapted athlete be better able to avoid hitting the wall? Sure. Does a fat adapted athlete eat carbs? Yes. There is no black and white here, IMO.

    Wishful thinking!
    (As someone who doesn't do endurance sports and when you did "a handful of raisins" seemed to be the limit of your interest in sports nutrition I wonder why you are so invested in the subject?)

    You got this half right so that's something....
    "I do think it is silly to argue keto athletes cannot use glucose for fuel or athletes on a higher carb diet won't use fat."
    The bit you got wrong is that no-one is saying keto athletes can't use carbs - what is being said is that they use carbs less well (lowered pyruvate dehydrogenase) than someone with a higher carb intake.
    Of course athletes use both fat and carbs for fuel, that's not the issue. And keto is just one way that athletes get better at fat oxidation, but a way with a big downside - carb impairment.

    "Higher carb obviously works well for some the vast majority of athletes" - FIFY

    "Are ingested carbs needed for one to perform and thrive? No"
    Can you perform on no carb? Yes of course - just not optimally, so no that's not thriving.

    The one thing you got right is "Most likely both together are best" - and keto is not that!

    Please don't be condescending. I did endurance sports for decades. I used to run 3-5 hours on my weekends, where, yes, a handful of raisins helped me replace glycogen and BG in the second half of my run. I used to hike a mountain after work in the summer evenings. I did this until I couldn't anymore due to arthritis. Hip replacements may be great but they aren't magical.

    I did not say someone said keto athletes can not use carbs, but there seems to be some implicating, perhaps not in this thread, that keto athletes cannot use carbs to supplement training. All or nothing. But I do agree that keto athletes will not use carbs as effectively as higher carb athletes, like high carb athletes will not use fat and ketones as effectively as high fat athletes. Carb impairment vs fat impairment.

    And I'll reword my "corrected" statement: Higher carb obviously works well for some the vast majority of athlete who have tried low carb. It seems most athletes who have tried low carb, for more than just a couple of months, tend to continue with some form of it whether it is cycled, targeted, periodic or full time. By athletes, I mean people who participate in sports (basketball, x-country, rugby, lifting, etc.) and work to better their performance (or maintain once you hit a certain point or age). I did not the term "elite" when referring to athletes.

    I don't want to debate the definition of "thrive".

    And you said
    The one thing you got right is "Most likely both together are best" - and keto is not that!

    I disagree. Keto does involve eating carbs. It involves being in a ketogenic state most of the time. That can include 0, 20, 50, or 200 g of carbs depending on when those carbs are consumed and what they are. I would say ketogenic athletes can use glucose, fat, and ketones quite well. I doubt high carb based athletes use ketones as effectively (but again, yes, I am sure they use carbs better).
    sijomial wrote: »
    @mmapags
    Now holding my breath for the study by the two scientists with vested interests in a keto business where they gathered elite athletes together for a trial where they only looked at some metabolic adaptations but didn't publish any performance data.....

    Seems a very odd omission to me. If I was an elite athlete rates of fat oxidation would be a very minor interest compared to what happened to my performance.

    I'm just curious if you have tried a low carb or ketogenic diet over a long enough period (a few months) to judge how it affected your performance? I know you have posted something on how performance falls when LCHF (power walkers who were not fat adapted, I believe) but that is not what all fat adapted athletes report. Or even most. If that were true, I'm sure we'd be hearing it a lot more and its popularity would have died down by now.
This discussion has been closed.

Categories