Confused about muscle gain and weight loss
Momepro
Posts: 1,509 Member
I keep reading that it is not possible to build muscle in a deficit. So why am I able to do higher resistance and more reps, and can see some toning in my arms and back-end, while I am definitely in a deficit? That means I'm gaining muscle, right? 'Cause I was pretty pathetic when I started. And I've lost over 20 lbs.
And no, I'm not being sarcastic or snarky, I'm trying to figure this stuff out.
And no, I'm not being sarcastic or snarky, I'm trying to figure this stuff out.
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Replies
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I had the exact same question and it was explained that there's a difference between gaining strength, which will happen, and adding new muscle mass-which is unlikely to happen. Good for you for doing strength training now. It will definitely give you a better body when you get to goal!2
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Also, if you are getting your protein macro correct, your weight loss will be mostly fat, and if you are also doing the higher resistance and more reps while getting your protein macro correct in a deficit, you further retard the rate of muscle loss while continuing fat loss. You will lose lean mass during substantial weight loss, but you can limit those losses by using what you have.
Good on you for doing it!2 -
I keep reading that it is not possible to build muscle in a deficit. So why am I able to do higher resistance and more reps, and can see some toning in my arms and back-end, while I am definitely in a deficit? That means I'm gaining muscle, right? 'Cause I was pretty pathetic when I started. And I've lost over 20 lbs.
And no, I'm not being sarcastic or snarky, I'm trying to figure this stuff out.
You become stronger through neuromuscular adaptation. Your central nervous system becomes more efficient at using more of the muscles (fiber recruitment) and firing the electrical impulses which activate them (rate coding). Hypertrophy (muscle growth) isn't necessary for strength increase, especially in the beginning stages of weight training.
"Toning" is a function of fat loss, which gives you more muscular definition - they become more visible because there's less fat covering them.5 -
And to add to @lorrpb 's answer, when you lose fat it can reveal the muscle that was already underneath.
The whole reason for fat loss in regards to esctetics yet for some reason people keep using that as proof to building muscle in a deficit. I'm in a surplus, have added 20lbs to my deadlift with very little muscle gain. I've actually lost arm size. What's the rational behind that?2 -
So it's not so much a matter of gaining muscle, as it is just training the ones I have to get off thier lazy *kitten* and do thier jobs properly?6
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So it's not so much a matter of gaining muscle, as it is just training the ones I have to get off thier lazy *kitten* and do thier jobs properly?
At least at first, that must happen.
Make it happen safe but quick, and then move on to gaining - perhaps if enough fat to be lost to support the small/slow growth.1 -
So it's not so much a matter of gaining muscle, as it is just training the ones I have to get off thier lazy *kitten* and do thier jobs properly?
At least at first, that must happen.
Make it happen safe but quick, and then move on to gaining - perhaps if enough fat to be lost to support the small/slow growth.
Well I need to lose about 100 lbs, so I'm going to be in a deficit for quite a while longer.0 -
Newb gains, when you are new any resistance training when there was previously none will increase muscle size even on a deficit. When you get more advanved in weight training and the deficit continues, building muscle will become a lot harder.1
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So it's not so much a matter of gaining muscle, as it is just training the ones I have to get off thier lazy *kitten* and do thier jobs properly?
At least at first, that must happen.
Make it happen safe but quick, and then move on to gaining - perhaps if enough fat to be lost to support the small/slow growth.
Well I need to lose about 100 lbs, so I'm going to be in a deficit for quite a while longer.
In that case, you have some real ability to add some at above snail pace since starting while you still have more fat to lose.
Keep making it progressive and hard for you, make the most of the early start, and get what you can get.2 -
So it's not so much a matter of gaining muscle, as it is just training the ones I have to get off thier lazy *kitten* and do thier jobs properly?
At least at first, that must happen.
Make it happen safe but quick, and then move on to gaining - perhaps if enough fat to be lost to support the small/slow growth.
Well I need to lose about 100 lbs, so I'm going to be in a deficit for quite a while longer.
I lost 150 and strength trained the entire time. No regrets. I was really scraping the bottom when I started.3 -
So it's not so much a matter of gaining muscle, as it is just training the ones I have to get off thier lazy *kitten* and do thier jobs properly?
At least at first, that must happen.
Make it happen safe but quick, and then move on to gaining - perhaps if enough fat to be lost to support the small/slow growth.
Well I need to lose about 100 lbs, so I'm going to be in a deficit for quite a while longer.
Start the weight lifting sooner rather than later. The benefit is you will retain more muscle, and lose more of your weight from fat, and you will have more muscle to work with once done weight loss.
And yeah, I didn't listen to the advice until I was a year into weight loss and lost 100 lbs. I wish I had started lifting sooner, but was avoiding the gym. It was a bad move on my part.3 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »So it's not so much a matter of gaining muscle, as it is just training the ones I have to get off thier lazy *kitten* and do thier jobs properly?
At least at first, that must happen.
Make it happen safe but quick, and then move on to gaining - perhaps if enough fat to be lost to support the small/slow growth.
Well I need to lose about 100 lbs, so I'm going to be in a deficit for quite a while longer.
Start the weight lifting sooner rather than later. The benefit is you will retain more muscle, and lose more of your weight from fat, and you will have more muscle to work with once done weight loss.
And yeah, I didn't listen to the advice until I was a year into weight loss and lost 100 lbs. I wish I had started lifting sooner, but was avoiding the gym. It was a bad move on my part.
That's the plan. Plus, I'm sick of being weak and sore, and messing up my body for weeks every time I trip over a friggin sidewalk crack or worse, just because.0 -
I understand the "neuromuscular adaptation" on how you can be stronger without muscle hypertrophy thing. So I don't have any debates on that. I also understand that if you lose fat, you are no longer covering the muscle you already have and thus toning under this definition. No arguments from me.
But what if you in fact have very little muscle left. I seen it where people do a great job losing lots of weight and still not look great cause there's nothing left but bone and skin. I still nod and smile with approval and give them a "great job" because I am actually very proud of them for doing such a great job in improving their health and aesthetics. But in the back of my mind I see boney arms and legs and maybe even a drain in face and think to myself, maybe they lost too much?
I also know that a lot of people who end up on a muscle building program (and you can tailor your workout and diet regimen according to what you want to achieve) and they lose a lot of body fat but don't have that skin and bones look either. The loose skin effect is also not a factor because they added mass back in with the muscle to fill in.
So I agree that you can lose weight and get stronger, and be on a calorie deficit the whole time, and not worry about building muscle. But, you still may not achieve the same aesthetic that you were looking for.2 -
Anyway, I came in here because of the title but the body is asking a completely different question. And I saw no one address the actual subject title.
In order to build muscle (or anything like glycogen, fat, bone density, ect) your body has to go into what is called an anabolic state. In order to lose fat (break it down and use it for energy) or anything in your body like that, your body goes into a catabolic state. In order to go into anabolic state, you need the actual materials (can't build muscle without amino acids, can't build bones without calcium, can't increase red blood cells without iron) and a signal from the brain to do so. Your brain will have to be in an environment to trigger the event (low blood glucose will trigger fat or glycogen breakdown) (or excess blood glucose to build glycogen or fat), and then it will trigger the event by signaling the body to release certain hormones and enzymes to make the process to actually happen.
Certain hormones that are released trigger a catabolic state and other hormones that are released will trigger an anabolic state. Because this is all based upon chemical reactions, these chemicals will require a time period in order to stabilize and return to equilibrium. Once hormones are released in the body to tell the adipose cell to release a triglyceride in order to get broken down to be used for cell metabolism, it will take some time for that process to be reversed so that excess glucose in the blood can respond to an insulin release so that the glucose can be carried back through the right pathway in order to create and store triglyceride in the adipose.
Because muscle atrophy requires the body to be in an anabolic state for a great deal of period, any hormone that is released to cause a catabolic state would impair the ability to build muscle. Plus a certain amount of energy is required to fuel muscle atrophy. So if your body is at a calorie deficit, then the body will rely heavily on it's energy requirements from catabolic activities. Thus impairing muscle atrophy. But if energy requirements are coming from digestion and ingestion (dietary means), the anabolic state is not as impaired.
I may be off here and invite criticism, but this is my understanding of why it's hard to lose weight and gain muscle at the same time.
I always learned that the best way to do this is a bulk/cut method. One cycle where you eat at calorie excess to build muscle (bulk) followed by a cycle at a calorie deficit to lose fat (cut). All the time eating enough protein and continuing your strength training through both cycles.
I am confused as to how the recomposition method works (its supposed to be a complicated way of eating and working out) but claims to allow you to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time without bulk/cut cycles. But supposedly it is possible to do this. Frankly I never really researched recomposition enough to really understand it enough.
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Apart from the very significant neuromuscular adaptation also remember that someone new to training also improves their technique markedly and quickly.
I gained a whole load of strength during my return to serious training - added 50lbs to my bench press in nine months but then progress slowed to a crawl. Refined my technique and added another 30lbs very rapidly. In reality my muscular strength didn't change much but I just used it better.
Just getting more confident and getting used to pushing closer to their limits through practice also accounts for some increases.
Do wish people wouldn't obsess so much over whether they are gaining muscle in a deficit or not - just do the right things and be the best that you can be. Whether that's gaining a small amount of muscle (entirely possible) or just maintaining the maximum you already have it's still the best than a particular individual can do.4 -
@Stoshew71<< SNIP >>
I am confused as to how the recomposition method works (its supposed to be a complicated way of eating and working out) but claims to allow you to gain muscle and lose fat at the same time without bulk/cut cycles. But supposedly it is possible to do this. Frankly I never really researched recomposition enough to really understand it enough.
Recomp doesn't actually have to be complex at all - that's mostly trainers selling a program where none is required!
It can be as simple as eating around maintenance levels and training effectively - that's it. No special calorie cycling or nutrient timing required at all.
Remember people are cycling between anabolic and catabolic states frequently throughout the day/night, caloric balance just affects the duration and proportion.
From reading your posts here's a couple of articles that you will probably enjoy......
Eric Helms/Lawrence Judd
https://muscleandstrengthpyramids.com/calorie-deficit-gain-weight/
Bret Contreras
https://bretcontreras.com/to-bulk-and-cut-or-not/
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I keep reading that it is not possible to build muscle in a deficit. So why am I able to do higher resistance and more reps, and can see some toning in my arms and back-end, while I am definitely in a deficit? That means I'm gaining muscle, right? 'Cause I was pretty pathetic when I started. And I've lost over 20 lbs.
And no, I'm not being sarcastic or snarky, I'm trying to figure this stuff out.
Strength gains, particularly initially are largely due to neuro-muscular adaptation...basically recruiting and efficiently using what you have. Also, losing weight will reveal the muscle underneath...more definition doesn't necessarily mean more muscle...it means less fat covering the muscle. When you have a lot of weight to lose and you're new, it is possible to put on some muscle mass, but it is fairly minimal and noob gains are short lived.
Basically building muscle requires an anabolic state...you can't build something from nothing...basically works the same way as getting fat. A calorie deficit is a catabolic state so essentially you don't have the energy available to build muscle mass. The fat you oxidize in a calorie deficit is going to be more or less used for operation of more essential functions...building muscle is a pretty low priority for the human body when energy deprived.2
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