Barefoot/Minimalist Running
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OldAssDude wrote: »
What i am hoping to gain from this is to slowly transition into minimal 0 drop shoes and a forefoot strike form of running. Don't know if i want to go as extreme as barefoot running, but i do feel that this style of running has some serious merit.
I plan on taking the same approach as i did when i started running. starting at minute intervals and increasing as i develop.
That's clear, thank you. It sounds like it's more the forefoot gait aspect, than minimalist shoes?
Much of what I've read on the subject is inconclusive on the value. A forefoot or midfoot gait can help alleviate shin pain, but it can transfer the stresses to the Achilles, increasing the risk of tendonopathy, or calf tears. I'd also highlight that some work, albeit with a small sample size, suggests that most people heel strike when fatigued, regardless of how they start.
Notwithstanding that, you've got the right approach. Build up to it using an interval approach, but be very conscious of how the back of your lower leg is responding.
Fwiw I'm comfortable up to marathon in a 4mm shoe with either no, or negligible, cushioning. Zero drop leaves me with Achilles sensitivity. Going beyond marathon is generally wear something with a little more cushioning, but sticking with the 4mm. As I largely trail run that means I've got far more control of the run, and good ground feel.
Personally I found most value concentrating on where I plant my foot, rather than how. Concentrating on high cadence and landing under my centre of mass tended to lead to a more forward footstrike.
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thank you all for the great responses.
my take so far is that i feel there is a great deal of merit to this. it just makes a lot of sense to me, and i can definitely feel the difference between the joint stress of heel striking and the muscular stress of forefoot striking. Also being able to feel the ground, and my brain being able to interpret that and adjust my form better.
i think that people who have tried this and injured themselves did too much too fast, and then just chalked it up to another fad that don't work.
don't know if i will go to the extreme of running barefoot on asphalt, but i am definitely going to slowly work my way into minimal and forefoot strike. it's kinda like starting over again, but i think it will pay off in the long run.
get it?
long run?
i did my second run today and did 1/4 x 11 over a 3.85 mile distance. the run intervals where about a 10:00/mi. pace.
i feel no joint stress as i do heel striking, but i do feel the muscular stress. just knowing that the mechanics of the foot pivoting and allowing them to take the shock rather than sending it up through the joints should make enough sense to realize that his is a real thing. I would even go as far as to say it could rehabilitate the foot.
JMHO4 -
I ran barefoot for a while about 18 years ago. I really loved the minimal shock to the joints, and the lighter than air feeling. I tried to ease into it, but wound up injured from doing barefoot speed work at the track (duh). That was a tendon injury that took quite a while to heal. I'd had flat feet to begin with, and this tendon was located in (or attached to?) the arch.
I never really went back to barefoot running, but did some in minimalist shoes. Now, I'm back to regular running shoes. But, I will say that after doing a LOT of barefoot walking on my treadmill desk, my arches are now more in the normal range, such that I'm no longer flat footed. I can wear lighter running shoes with less support (was using Brooks Ariel at one point).
I think the bottom line is--our feet have gotten used to many years of walking/running with support and heel striking. Switching to barefoot/minimalist running requires a very gradual increase, and lots of caution. Over time, your feet should adjust, just take it slooow. That's been my experience, anyway. Good luck!2 -
I run barefoot, trail and pavement. I tried it out of desperation because I got terrible shin splints when I ran in shoes. I figured if my ancestors could run that way, then I could too. I mean, there was life before Nike, right? It worked... no more shin splints! Been running barefoot for over 3 years now (probably closer to 4 years) and I find it so fun that I’ll never give it up. If conditions are not ideal, I wear 4mm zero drop Xero sandals. I’ve put over 2,000 miles on a single pair of sandals and they are STILL going (yes, that’s 2,000). Actually my least favorite surface to run on is grass because of the lack of visibility, foot placement can be an issue. I’ve had some of the same problems as runners in shoes. I’ve had tendonitis, overuse injuries, ankle sprains, etc. I have NOT had black-toenails, knee or hip pain or any more shin splints. People tend to think that just because running barefoot is “natural” that it should come easily and have no complications to overcome. On the contrary, the feet you are starting out with have been atrophied from years of shoe-wearing so it will take much longer to adapt to what SHOULD have come naturally. It will take time to adapt, just like any new exercise. No one starts out simply picking up 500 pound weights, they have to build up to it gradually over time. Same thing with barefooting. I’d say it took me about a year to really grasp it, and I started out sedentary and flat footed (after a year I developed a strong arch which I attribute to strengthening the connective tissues through barefoot running and hiking). It’s like anything in life, there are benefits and risks. For me, the benefits outweigh the risks... I feel I’ve gained better stability on my feet in general, my posture has improved immensely, I save a ton of money on shoes since I hear that regular running shoes need to be retired after a few hundred miles and best of all I find it extremely FUN! I feel like a kid again! It may not be for everyone but it’s really worked for me and I’ve actually helped 3 other people I know transition to barefooting
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No, and I never will. And yes, I do have a slight heel strike and no I don't give a rat's *kitten*. I like to have my achillies in one piece, thank you.
If you have no issues now, why introduce something that has the potential to cause issues????5 -
I’m happy that the whole barefoot/minimalist fad has died down. Lawsuits have a way of dampening overenthusiasm. Running gait is something that has a lot of moving parts (pun intended). There is no one style that is suitable for everyone. Thankfully, most of those who find this type of running comfortable and helpful have found their stride, so to speak, and those who don’t have recovered from their injuries and moved on to what it best for them.
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OldAssDude wrote: »thank you all for the great responses.
my take so far is that i feel there is a great deal of merit to this. it just makes a lot of sense to me, and i can definitely feel the difference between the joint stress of heel striking and the muscular stress of forefoot striking. Also being able to feel the ground, and my brain being able to interpret that and adjust my form better.
i think that people who have tried this and injured themselves did too much too fast, and then just chalked it up to another fad that don't work.
don't know if i will go to the extreme of running barefoot on asphalt, but i am definitely going to slowly work my way into minimal and forefoot strike. it's kinda like starting over again, but i think it will pay off in the long run.
get it?
long run?
i did my second run today and did 1/4 x 11 over a 3.85 mile distance. the run intervals where about a 10:00/mi. pace.
i feel no joint stress as i do heel striking, but i do feel the muscular stress. just knowing that the mechanics of the foot pivoting and allowing them to take the shock rather than sending it up through the joints should make enough sense to realize that his is a real thing. I would even go as far as to say it could rehabilitate the foot.
JMHO
Just to be clear - heel vs. mid. vs. front is not the issue. The issue is your stride length. You are absolutely fine to heel strike as long as do not overstride. Heck, it's still very possible to overstride with fore or mid front running. The only difference would be where the injury shows up (knee vs. achilles).
Without arguing the necessity of the change, you are approaching it the right way. Just be careful with the switch. Dismissing those who got injured trying to change as "they weren't smart about how they did it" is dangerous and foolish.5 -
OldAssDude wrote: »thank you all for the great responses.
my take so far is that i feel there is a great deal of merit to this. it just makes a lot of sense to me, and i can definitely feel the difference between the joint stress of heel striking and the muscular stress of forefoot striking. Also being able to feel the ground, and my brain being able to interpret that and adjust my form better.
i think that people who have tried this and injured themselves did too much too fast, and then just chalked it up to another fad that don't work.
don't know if i will go to the extreme of running barefoot on asphalt, but i am definitely going to slowly work my way into minimal and forefoot strike. it's kinda like starting over again, but i think it will pay off in the long run.
get it?
long run?
i did my second run today and did 1/4 x 11 over a 3.85 mile distance. the run intervals where about a 10:00/mi. pace.
i feel no joint stress as i do heel striking, but i do feel the muscular stress. just knowing that the mechanics of the foot pivoting and allowing them to take the shock rather than sending it up through the joints should make enough sense to realize that his is a real thing. I would even go as far as to say it could rehabilitate the foot.
JMHO
Just to be clear - heel vs. mid. vs. front is not the issue. The issue is your stride length. You are absolutely fine to heel strike as long as do not overstride. Heck, it's still very possible to overstride with fore or mid front running. The only difference would be where the injury shows up (knee vs. achilles).
Without arguing the necessity of the change, you are approaching it the right way. Just be careful with the switch. Dismissing those who got injured trying to change as "they weren't smart about how they did it" is dangerous and foolish.
Has a kind of "the shoe didn't fail the runner, the runner failed the shoe!" ring to it.
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So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?1 -
janejellyroll wrote: »OldAssDude wrote: »thank you all for the great responses.
my take so far is that i feel there is a great deal of merit to this. it just makes a lot of sense to me, and i can definitely feel the difference between the joint stress of heel striking and the muscular stress of forefoot striking. Also being able to feel the ground, and my brain being able to interpret that and adjust my form better.
i think that people who have tried this and injured themselves did too much too fast, and then just chalked it up to another fad that don't work.
don't know if i will go to the extreme of running barefoot on asphalt, but i am definitely going to slowly work my way into minimal and forefoot strike. it's kinda like starting over again, but i think it will pay off in the long run.
get it?
long run?
i did my second run today and did 1/4 x 11 over a 3.85 mile distance. the run intervals where about a 10:00/mi. pace.
i feel no joint stress as i do heel striking, but i do feel the muscular stress. just knowing that the mechanics of the foot pivoting and allowing them to take the shock rather than sending it up through the joints should make enough sense to realize that his is a real thing. I would even go as far as to say it could rehabilitate the foot.
JMHO
Just to be clear - heel vs. mid. vs. front is not the issue. The issue is your stride length. You are absolutely fine to heel strike as long as do not overstride. Heck, it's still very possible to overstride with fore or mid front running. The only difference would be where the injury shows up (knee vs. achilles).
Without arguing the necessity of the change, you are approaching it the right way. Just be careful with the switch. Dismissing those who got injured trying to change as "they weren't smart about how they did it" is dangerous and foolish.
Has a kind of "the shoe didn't fail the runner, the runner failed the shoe!" ring to it.
The snag with the debate is that it's a bit fundy... Born to Run is a bit ONE TRUE WAY (TM) about it.
Zero drop, minimal protection has a place. Zero drop maximal has a place. Twelve mm, cushioned, has a place. I won't go on.2 -
i think everyone has good points and this is definitely a healthy debate.
i agree that form is a very important part of running. not only to prevent injuries, but to be a better runner.
one point i would like to make is that i think all these different types of running shoes "DO" make all the muscles associated with running weaker, because they give support on area's that should be doing work. and having that ground feel "DOES" cause runners form to suffer. and heel striking "DOES" send a more sudden and more pronounced shock through all your joints.
Landing on the ball of your foot allows the pivoting of your foot to absorb most of that shock by using the muscles in your foot, and your joints then take very little (if any) of that shock. a shorter stride and higher cadence also lessens the shock.
also, having that feeling of the ground, your brain forces you to have better form because you know it's going to hurt if you don't.
these are all very valid points to me, but i also think that to be successful you pretty much have to start from scratch, and very gradually build it up. we have been wearing shoes that do a lot of the work for us most of our lives, and it may take a year (or more) to gradually build that strength.4 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
i would say get a pair of minimalist zero drop shoes and just start doing it.
but
do it very gradually.
i started with walk/run intervals. 1 min run/4 min walk, and at a slow pace with a shorter stride and a higher cadence. i try to focus on my form, and striking with my forefoot, then allowing my muscles to absorb the shock by pivoting my foot until my heel just gently kissed the ground.
i did this over a 3 to 4 mile distance. i did not feel the stress in my joints like i did heel striking, but i did feel the muscles working.
your mileage may vary, but if it starts hurting, just start walking again. if you feel like you can go longer, go longer. listen to your body and don't over do it.
the best things in nature happen slowly over time.
i just ordered a pair of these that should be here tomorrow...
https://xeroshoes.com/shop/activity/performance/prio-men/
they have good ratings, are not expensive, and have a 5,000 mile sole warranty.5 -
Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
Fwiw there is no evidence of any real benefit, particularly if you need a motion control shoe at the moment. The data I've seen indicate that whilst movement to a lower drop can help alleviate the causes of shin pain, it can lead to achilles and calf injury instead. Essentially no change in injury rates, but changes in injury type.
One of the big arguments is around joint impact, but there is nothing to suggest any validity in that. Indeed there is quite a solid evidence base growing that suggests joint health is positively affected by running.
As a trail runner, a lower drop can lead to more control.
From your perspective, you've got the issue of moving from motion control to neutral, as well as reducing the do. That's quite a lot of change.
From a personal perspective, my winter shoes have an 8mm drop, my summer shoes have 4mm or 0mm. Migrating between them takes about a month before I can do long distances in the lower drop.2 -
MeanderingMammal wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
Fwiw there is no evidence of any real benefit, particularly if you need a motion control shoe at the moment. The data I've seen indicate that whilst movement to a lower drop can help alleviate the causes of shin pain, it can lead to achilles and calf injury instead. Essentially no change in injury rates, but changes in injury type.
One of the big arguments is around joint impact, but there is nothing to suggest any validity in that. Indeed there is quite a solid evidence base growing that suggests joint health is positively affected by running.
As a trail runner, a lower drop can lead to more control.
From your perspective, you've got the issue of moving from motion control to neutral, as well as reducing the do. That's quite a lot of change.
From a personal perspective, my winter shoes have an 8mm drop, my summer shoes have 4mm or 0mm. Migrating between them takes about a month before I can do long distances in the lower drop.
blog.sensoriafitness.com/post/2017/05/23/15-health-benefits-of-barefoot-running-shoes-according-to-science2 -
Let me preface this by saying that I don't have the first damn clue what I'm talking about.
But I can't help but think that any benefits or risks associated with barefoot running or shoed running or any other running is going to be REALLY individual and based more on a person's specific mechanics, body, conditioning, etc. I don't know how you say that any benefit or any risk is universal and applies to even the vast majority of runners.2 -
OldAssDude wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
Fwiw there is no evidence of any real benefit, particularly if you need a motion control shoe at the moment. The data I've seen indicate that whilst movement to a lower drop can help alleviate the causes of shin pain, it can lead to achilles and calf injury instead. Essentially no change in injury rates, but changes in injury type.
One of the big arguments is around joint impact, but there is nothing to suggest any validity in that. Indeed there is quite a solid evidence base growing that suggests joint health is positively affected by running.
As a trail runner, a lower drop can lead to more control.
From your perspective, you've got the issue of moving from motion control to neutral, as well as reducing the do. That's quite a lot of change.
From a personal perspective, my winter shoes have an 8mm drop, my summer shoes have 4mm or 0mm. Migrating between them takes about a month before I can do long distances in the lower drop.
blog.sensoriafitness.com/post/2017/05/23/15-health-benefits-of-barefoot-running-shoes-according-to-science
Have you actually followed the links in that article to the 'scientific evidence'? I just did....5 -
OldAssDude wrote: »MeanderingMammal wrote: »Tacklewasher wrote: »So, this has me curious. The shoes I've been using are Asics GT-1000, so pretty high stability and a 10mm drop.
What would be a comparable shoe, but maybe a mid drop? And what could the benefit be?
Fwiw there is no evidence of any real benefit, particularly if you need a motion control shoe at the moment. The data I've seen indicate that whilst movement to a lower drop can help alleviate the causes of shin pain, it can lead to achilles and calf injury instead. Essentially no change in injury rates, but changes in injury type.
One of the big arguments is around joint impact, but there is nothing to suggest any validity in that. Indeed there is quite a solid evidence base growing that suggests joint health is positively affected by running.
As a trail runner, a lower drop can lead to more control.
From your perspective, you've got the issue of moving from motion control to neutral, as well as reducing the do. That's quite a lot of change.
From a personal perspective, my winter shoes have an 8mm drop, my summer shoes have 4mm or 0mm. Migrating between them takes about a month before I can do long distances in the lower drop.
blog.sensoriafitness.com/post/2017/05/23/15-health-benefits-of-barefoot-running-shoes-according-to-science
Have you actually followed the links in that article to the 'scientific evidence'? I just did....
LOL that's crazy talk! I did as well and am not impressed. Like one Popular Mechanics article referring to another Popular Mechanics article.1 -
I spent years fighting stress fractures(diagnosed via bone scan) in my tibias when running. I healed them for the zillionth time and went out and bought a pair of zero drop shoes. 6 months slowly transitioning into those then wearing them fully and I bought my first pair of “five fingers” vibrams. FOR ME they have been the best possible shoes! I worked my way into them slowly, over a full year, and now wear them exclusively. Half marathon distance on pavement and gravel, sandy runs, grassy runs, aerobics on my cement floors, weight training, multi day hikes of 15 plus miles with a pack, if I wear anything else I get hip pain, ankle pain and over days my tibias start to ache and I know I am risking damage again.
They work for some people not for others. I am a fan and my Physio is a fan. I feel they have increased my rom, strength, and overal use of the joints in my foot. I am a massage therapist and have come into contact with many far better educated people than me who are backing away from the over supported, mobility restricting footwear of today and moving towards more natural movement of feet. If you decide to use them, work your way in slow, listen to your body, do some good research on body mechanics, and talk to experts when you are in contact with them.2
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