supplements and endurance athletes

jjpptt2

Last week there was a thread about pre-workout drinks. It started off pretty typically… are they beneficial/what’s your favorite, and went the usual route… waste of money, just drink coffee, with a couple actual pre-workout recommendations.

Eventually a comment was made about the difference between a stimulant (like caffeine) and a fatigue fighter (like creatine).

Stimulants.

Increase heart rate. Can cause your adrenal glands to excrete adrenaline. Stimulates your body.

Fatigue fighter.
Increases the total workload of your skeletal muscle. Can reduce lactic acid, increase nutrient delivery to muscles, increase energy sources for your muscles.

In ways they're similar. But how they work is different.

Obviously not the most precise definitions. Not looking to start a debate.

That small tangent got me thinking…
As an endurance athlete (cyclist, runner, triathlete), I could see huge benefits from increased workload, reduction in lactic acid, improved nutrient delivery, and increased energy to the muscle fibers. So are there any benefits to these supplements (creatine, Beta-Alanine, L-citruline) in that context – to endurance athletes/endurance events?

As with most things, I believe training is the overwhelming determinant of success. But given the amount of time/work/effort some athletes put into their training, even a small benefit from basic supplements could be worth it.

I've never seen supplements like creatine discussed in the context of endurance sports, so I'm put this thread out there for discussion.

psuLemon

jjpptt2 wrote: »

Last week there was a thread about pre-workout drinks. It started off pretty typically… are they beneficial/what’s your favorite, and went the usual route… waste of money, just drink coffee, with a couple actual pre-workout recommendations.

Eventually a comment was made about the difference between a stimulant (like caffeine) and a fatigue fighter (like creatine).

Stimulants.

Increase heart rate. Can cause your adrenal glands to excrete adrenaline. Stimulates your body.

Fatigue fighter.
Increases the total workload of your skeletal muscle. Can reduce lactic acid, increase nutrient delivery to muscles, increase energy sources for your muscles.

In ways they're similar. But how they work is different.

Obviously not the most precise definitions. Not looking to start a debate.

That small tangent got me thinking…
As an endurance athlete (cyclist, runner, triathlete), I could see huge benefits from increased workload, reduction in lactic acid, improved nutrient delivery, and increased energy to the muscle fibers. So are there any benefits to these supplements (creatine, Beta-Alanine, L-citruline) in that context – to endurance athletes/endurance events?

As with most things, I believe training is the overwhelming determinant of success. But given the amount of time/work/effort some athletes put into their training, even a small benefit from basic supplements could be worth it.

I've never seen supplements like creatine discussed in the context of endurance sports, so I'm put this thread out there for discussion.

One of the problems i have seen with these is many have a small application window, meaning the work in certain circumstances or have minor effects in one or two areas. In the case of Creatine Monohydrate, is its benefit for providing additional volume during anaerobic exercise simce its increasea available ATP. It has a small components of improved recovery, probably because its a muscle saturator, but it doesnt seem to improve aerobic capacity. Largely creatine is a power supplent. Beta-Alanine doesn't seem to have any benefits to aerobic exercises either. If anything, L-Citruline or Citrulline Malate seems lile there many be potential for improved recovery. Its a cheap supplement. And at the very least if taken daily, it will provide some cardiovascular benefits.

ETA: on a personal tangent. I do see value in supplements, even though i am not supplementing currently.

BrianSharpe

This may interest you.....

triathlete.com/2011/03/nutrition/what-is-the-endurance-creatine_24198

stanmann571

jjpptt2 wrote: »

Last week there was a thread about pre-workout drinks. It started off pretty typically… are they beneficial/what’s your favorite, and went the usual route… waste of money, just drink coffee, with a couple actual pre-workout recommendations.

Eventually a comment was made about the difference between a stimulant (like caffeine) and a fatigue fighter (like creatine).

Stimulants.

Increase heart rate. Can cause your adrenal glands to excrete adrenaline. Stimulates your body.

Fatigue fighter.
Increases the total workload of your skeletal muscle. Can reduce lactic acid, increase nutrient delivery to muscles, increase energy sources for your muscles.

In ways they're similar. But how they work is different.

Obviously not the most precise definitions. Not looking to start a debate.

That small tangent got me thinking…
As an endurance athlete (cyclist, runner, triathlete), I could see huge benefits from increased workload, reduction in lactic acid, improved nutrient delivery, and increased energy to the muscle fibers. So are there any benefits to these supplements (creatine, Beta-Alanine, L-citruline) in that context – to endurance athletes/endurance events?

As with most things, I believe training is the overwhelming determinant of success. But given the amount of time/work/effort some athletes put into their training, even a small benefit from basic supplements could be worth it.

I've never seen supplements like creatine discussed in the context of endurance sports, so I'm put this thread out there for discussion.

There haven't been many/enough studies to determine.

It's certainly not going to be as great as for a burst athlete, but needs more research.

sijomial

I've never seen anything to suggest creatine is at all helpful for endurance cardio.

I'm a very low responder to caffeine and have to go zero caffeine in the week before a big event to get a marginal benefit using it during an event - I tend to save for the big hills or second half of a very long ride.

Beetroot juice (just called beet juice in the US?) has some benefit for cardio from the nitrates. But loading the week before the event with something that tastes like pond mud isn't a lot of fun - beetroot shots are far more palatable than juice though.
It's something I only do before an event where I'm pushed to my limits and I want to feel I'm as best prepared as possible.

It's very common in pro teams and there's plenty of cycling related articles available to read (like this one - http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/latest-news/how-to-use-nitrate-to-boost-cycling-performance-198608 ).
Here's a research review if interested....
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5295087/

jjpptt2

Thanks all. Doesn't seem like there's any overwhelming information (proven or suggestive) in favor of supplementing for endurance/performance. Not surprising... I probably would have heard about it if there was something out there showing benefit to athletes.

MikePfirrman

There was a new study recently on K2 that was interesting. It was put out by a supplement company but was done pretty well (from what I could tell, university study, double blind). My take on it was that K2 (MK-7 form used in the study) helps speed up cardio benefits as in could be useful if you have to take a break and then regain your fitness. I take K2 anyway for bone/heart health so not really anything I'm adding but found it interesting. I believe it was only a very small group (like 15).

Just part of the discussion:

Oral Consumption of Vitamin K2 for 8 Weeks
Associated With Increased Maximal Cardiac
Output During Exercise
Brian K. McFarlin, PhD, FACSM, FTOS; Andrea L. Henning, MS; Adam S. Venable, PhD

A much lower effect size for heart rate AUC likely
explains the lack of significance at the current sample size;
however, with additional participants, that finding may
translate into a significant outcome effect. Regardless of
significance, the AUC analysis revealed that vitamin K2
supplementation was associated with a cardiovascular profile
characterized by increased cardiac output, increased heart
rate, and decreased blood lactate compared to the placebo
following 8 weeks of exercise training with the
supplementation (Figure 3).

In particular, the current study’s finding of a 12%
increase in maximal cardiac output might translate into an
effect on endurance exercise capacity. Without the vitamin K2
supplement, training-induced changes in maximal cardiac
output could take 6 to 9 months of continuous training to
achieve. Supplementation with vitamin K2 during training
may reduce that training window by approximately 60%.

I also like Astaxanthin and Beet Juice as well. I don't mind the taste of beet juice actually, but if you do, it's the nitrates that are supposed to give you a boost. Arugula also has lots of nitrates. I usually eat a nice arugula, roasted beet, goat cheese and walnut salad the day before an event.

sijomial

@MikePfirrman

I had to look up "arugula" - in Britain we call those salad leaves "rocket".

Doesn't rocket powered sound so much more dynamic than arugula powered?

MikePfirrman

sijomial wrote: »

@MikePfirrman

I had to look up "arugula" - in Britain we call those salad leaves "rocket".

Doesn't rocket powered sound so much more dynamic than arugula powered?

Yeah that's funny. I had to look up Rocket one time on a recipe I liked a lot... I was like Rocket, what the heck is that??

A lot of my online workout pals are from the UK (I do rowing and rowing, whether indoor or OTW (over the water) is MUCH bigger in the UK than in the States). You've got some real rowing beasts over there! Many of my online buddies are World record holders in different age groups/distances.

They say many things that I have to scratch my head and figure out what they mean!