Intermediate strength training heavy at age 50- volume per week (sets, reps)?

billkansas
billkansas Posts: 267 Member
in Goal: Gaining Weight and Body Building
I'm trying to confirm a suspicion about my lack of progress in the squat especially. I'll probably share my suspicion later but don't want to taint the feedback. (I was doing better a year ago at a slightly lower body weight).

What's too much? What's too little? How many "heavy" warm-up reps are correct? What assistance exercises are you doing and volume?

Thanks for your feedback.

Replies

  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    Reps & sets are going to be relative to the individual and their current levels of strength.

    Too much will be when you don't recover in time to perform.

    Too little will be when you don't adapt because the amount of stimulas you are giving the muscles is not enough to force adaptation.

    These two can have simular outcomes but it takes experience to know what is actually the cause of said outcome.

    Without knowing your programming it's inappropriate for anybody to say the cause.

    I don't advise heavy warm ups per sae. When the weight is "heavy", you should be already warmed up.

    For squat something like...
    3-5 x 8 empty bar
    1×135×5
    1×225×5
    1×315×3
    1×365×1

    4-6×405×5(working sets)

    Assistance exercises are ridiculously prescribed way too early for novices and intermediates. I do zero outside of the specificity of actual powerlifts 95% of my training because I don't need the extra stress to progress yet.. My squat is a assistance to the dead, dead for the squat.

    My volume is relative to my level of lifting, it has no bearing on yours regardless if we are almost identical age.

    All things being said, I find in most cases the culprit to the signs of missed reps of the lifters I coach is that volume needs to be up'd to drive the lift.

    If you are stalling at the squat, you more than likely aren't doing enough squats. Though it "could" be you are not recovering from lifting stress, just not as common.
  • billkansas
    billkansas Posts: 267 Member
    Well, you may have blew my theory out of the water. I thought I was doing to much volume. I've basically been overdoing warm-ups I thought.

    My typical warmups are
    45x5x2
    135x5
    185x5
    225x5
    275x3
    305x5x3 (working set)

    I've also been trying to fit in light squat day per week. Seems like my legs are always sore.

    I was thinking about lowering my volume by dropping a few redundant heavy warmups or possibly stopping the light squat day. Try to keep volume to 15 to 20 heavy reps per week, instead of the 25+ or so.

    Thanks for any additional information!
  • billkansas
    billkansas Posts: 267 Member
    jamesakrobinson wrote: »
    tanasta2 wrote: »
    You can definitely lower the weight that's a lot of weight for a 50 years old man assuming you are not on any performance-enhancing substance. Listen to your body, at that age, I would probably train to keep my joints healthy not overstressing them. But props to you for being 50+ years old and still lifting.

    Totally off base. I'm 51 (almost 52) and my squat workout is 315x5 (x3) with a 225x10 and 275x8 as my warmup. I don't do empty bar or extremely light warmups at all. Why burn the energy up on what are essentially just deep knee bends??

    My current "big three" PRs are 275 bench, 365 deadlift, and 340 squat... I have every intention of bringing that total up to 1000 pounds by my 52nd birthday (maybe a little ambitious but if you don't keep pushing your limits you end up with a thought process that includes nonsense things like "You can definitely lower the weight that's a lot of weight for a 50 years old man assuming you are not on any performance-enhancing substance. Listen to your body, at that age, I would probably train to keep my joints healthy not overstressing them."

    That's the defeatist attitude that leads to sarcopenia, osteoporosis, and a huge spare tire.

    Yes. You must exercise more caution than the young guys. (I've had a few injuries trying to keep up or just foolishly ego lifting but I learned my lesson.) You won't recover as fast as you did twenty years ago, and the gains are a little slower but if you're careful and otherwise healthy you can continue to get healthier and stronger for at least another decade and a half!

    So you're doing 33 (heavy) reps on squats every week? This is approximately your weekly workout for squats? do you do light squat day also? Thanks for your note.

  • billkansas
    billkansas Posts: 267 Member
    Okiludy wrote: »
    tanasta2 wrote: »
    You can definitely lower the weight that's a lot of weight for a 50 years old man assuming you are not on any performance-enhancing substance. Listen to your body, at that age, I would probably train to keep my joints healthy not overstressing them. But props to you for being 50+ years old and still lifting.

    No, not even close. I’m a 46 year old man with less than a year of lifting. On volume days I can hit 5x5@360. Intensity days can get as high as 405 for doubles. This and I’m not even strong and the most PED I take is creatine.

    People don’t have to do it but if someone wants to get strong don’t come up with some excuse that is bull. Yes being older means training may need to be modified but not stopped or cut back. *kitten* that! I’ll squat 500 before I’m 47 and don’t intend to slow down cause “I’m old”.

    Ticked off enough to go watch some elderly folks pull 500+ from floor.

    Oh yeah, it's official- you're strong. So is this the Texas Method? I'm guessing then you are hitting over 30 heavy reps per week on squats then. Based on you, James, and Chief- my volume is way to low then. I was thinking just the opposite.
  • jamesakrobinson
    jamesakrobinson Posts: 2,149 Member
    billkansas wrote: »
    jamesakrobinson wrote: »
    tanasta2 wrote: »
    You can definitely lower the weight that's a lot of weight for a 50 years old man assuming you are not on any performance-enhancing substance. Listen to your body, at that age, I would probably train to keep my joints healthy not overstressing them. But props to you for being 50+ years old and still lifting.

    Totally off base. I'm 51 (almost 52) and my squat workout is 315x5 (x3) with a 225x10 and 275x8 as my warmup. I don't do empty bar or extremely light warmups at all. Why burn the energy up on what are essentially just deep knee bends??

    My current "big three" PRs are 275 bench, 365 deadlift, and 340 squat... I have every intention of bringing that total up to 1000 pounds by my 52nd birthday (maybe a little ambitious but if you don't keep pushing your limits you end up with a thought process that includes nonsense things like "You can definitely lower the weight that's a lot of weight for a 50 years old man assuming you are not on any performance-enhancing substance. Listen to your body, at that age, I would probably train to keep my joints healthy not overstressing them."

    That's the defeatist attitude that leads to sarcopenia, osteoporosis, and a huge spare tire.

    Yes. You must exercise more caution than the young guys. (I've had a few injuries trying to keep up or just foolishly ego lifting but I learned my lesson.) You won't recover as fast as you did twenty years ago, and the gains are a little slower but if you're careful and otherwise healthy you can continue to get healthier and stronger for at least another decade and a half!

    So you're doing 33 (heavy) reps on squats every week? This is approximately your weekly workout for squats? do you do light squat day also? Thanks for your note.

    One "age related modification" I've made starting a few months ago was to pull squats out of my regular leg day and deadlifts out of my regular back day...

    I try to "leave everything I've got in the gym" when using large muscle groups, so any other exercise is just about useless because I'm empty after the big compounds.

    Now I have an actual squat day (plus calves and abs so I don't spend more time going to and from the gym than working out LOL) and 2 days later do "the rest" of legs... presses, seated calves, extensions, and curls.

    Yes on squat day I usually hit about 35 total reps or so but I'm more rigid about a minimum of 5 sets with the last approaching failure than tje total reps. If I have anything left in the tank I will "rep out" 185 for as many as I possibly can on a sixth set.

    I do the same thing with deadlifts... Just them and some shoulder work (and abs... always abs) one day, and the pull ups to failure then pulldowns, good mornings, seated rows. (and abs)

    This has me in the gym about six times a week, which is probably more than most but my progress hasn't stalled in a while. When it next does I will change things up again but nothing drastic.
  • jseams1234
    jseams1234 Posts: 1,219 Member
    What exactly do you think a PR is? If you are lifting progressively - as you should be - new PR’s would be a normal outcome as you become bigger and stronger. Heavy is relative. I consider “heavy” to be a weight that is challenging to me. If you never push hard enough to grow at all, wtf are you even doing in the gym? Do you really think that us old guys are only interested in dancing around with pink dumbbells or simply maintaining what lean mass we have with no desire or potential for growth? ...or do you think that growth potential is exclusively reserved for the under 30 crowd... ;)
  • justincook
    justincook Posts: 14 Member
    I'm not an expert. But this guy seems to be:

    https://www.amazon.com/Barbell-Prescription-Strength-Training-After/dp/0982522770
  • Chieflrg
    Chieflrg Posts: 9,097 Member
    edited March 2018
    tanasta2 wrote: »
    My idea is that unless you have Mike O'Hearn genetics and taking the same amount of substance as he did. I won't go extra heavy and focus on getting a new PR at that age. But do whatever you wanna do. If you wanna fight against your ego like the rest of people in this post encouraged you to do so, please do so. Older/= wiser I see. In addition, I didn't underestimate you, if those numbers were really true, I gave props to you as I said. Best luck


    Lowering the weight would be detraining and losing strength. Why would anybody purposely lose strength based on the year they were born? It's about improving the quality of life as we get older.

    It's not ego lifting if you train with knowledge and a plan. Hence why the OP is asking others who have experience and sucess at the same age range.

    It took me a full year of training to hit my goal to squat 405 for five reps. Do you know how many times I attempted 405x5 in that year? Once, the day I was ready and strong enough. You know how many time I failed a squat in three years?
    Zero, because I train at proper reps and intensity for my strength and progression plan.

    I think you are a bit confused what ego lifting is as well how heavy doesn't equate to failure of a lift. Heavy for one 40 year old I coach is a 225lb squat and it's a 480lb squat of the another I coach at the same age. It's the same stress to the muscles, just a different level of strength.

  • Okiludy
    Okiludy Posts: 558 Member
    billkansas wrote: »
    Okiludy wrote: »
    tanasta2 wrote: »
    You can definitely lower the weight that's a lot of weight for a 50 years old man assuming you are not on any performance-enhancing substance. Listen to your body, at that age, I would probably train to keep my joints healthy not overstressing them. But props to you for being 50+ years old and still lifting.

    No, not even close. I’m a 46 year old man with less than a year of lifting. On volume days I can hit 5x5@360. Intensity days can get as high as 405 for doubles. This and I’m not even strong and the most PED I take is creatine.

    People don’t have to do it but if someone wants to get strong don’t come up with some excuse that is bull. Yes being older means training may need to be modified but not stopped or cut back. *kitten* that! I’ll squat 500 before I’m 47 and don’t intend to slow down cause “I’m old”.

    Ticked off enough to go watch some elderly folks pull 500+ from floor.

    Oh yeah, it's official- you're strong. So is this the Texas Method? I'm guessing then you are hitting over 30 heavy reps per week on squats then. Based on you, James, and Chief- my volume is way to low then. I was thinking just the opposite.

    I follow the KSC Raw Powerlifting program from Andy Baker. He was a co-author of Practical Programming and The Barbell Prescription. The one I am following is not really age-dependent and is a 4-day program Upper/Lower Intensity/Volume. It uses daily undulating periodization at percentages of 1rm and not RPE. Since it is a powerlifting and peaking program it is intended to get you ready for a meet. I just run a cycle of it (7 weeks), take a deload week, and run it again. I have also gone off that program for a month as a break and followed Andy's HLM 3-day programming.

    I highly recommend both of Andy Baker's books, his youtube videos, his blog on his website, and his programming. Take a look at his youtube stuff and see if you like his approach.
  • Erik8484
    Erik8484 Posts: 458 Member
    billkansas wrote: »
    Okiludy wrote: »
    tanasta2 wrote: »
    You can definitely lower the weight that's a lot of weight for a 50 years old man assuming you are not on any performance-enhancing substance. Listen to your body, at that age, I would probably train to keep my joints healthy not overstressing them. But props to you for being 50+ years old and still lifting.

    No, not even close. I’m a 46 year old man with less than a year of lifting. On volume days I can hit 5x5@360. Intensity days can get as high as 405 for doubles. This and I’m not even strong and the most PED I take is creatine.

    People don’t have to do it but if someone wants to get strong don’t come up with some excuse that is bull. Yes being older means training may need to be modified but not stopped or cut back. *kitten* that! I’ll squat 500 before I’m 47 and don’t intend to slow down cause “I’m old”.

    Ticked off enough to go watch some elderly folks pull 500+ from floor.

    Oh yeah, it's official- you're strong. So is this the Texas Method? I'm guessing then you are hitting over 30 heavy reps per week on squats then. Based on you, James, and Chief- my volume is way to low then. I was thinking just the opposite.

    If youre squatting less than prescribed under the texas method then your issues is definitely not too much volume. In fact, the key issue many detractors have with the texas method is that it often doesnt provide enough volume for an intermediate to progress.

    Squat more!
  • Lean59man
    Lean59man Posts: 714 Member
    edited March 2018
    billkansas wrote: »
    I'm trying to confirm a suspicion about my lack of progress in the squat especially. I'll probably share my suspicion later but don't want to taint the feedback. (I was doing better a year ago at a slightly lower body weight).

    What's too much? What's too little? How many "heavy" warm-up reps are correct? What assistance exercises are you doing and volume?

    Thanks for your feedback.

    Lots of variable KansasBill.

    Squatting is mental too. How much discomfort do you want to endure from going balls-to-the-wall on your squats?

    Are you willing to endure knee pain from heavy squatting? Back pain? Can't-get-out-of-bed-in-the-morning pain? Being sore for several days after?

    If this doesn't happen to you then you really aren't going HEAVY. Nothing wrong with not killing yourself either.

    How many 55+ powerlifters do you see setting world records in open divisions? NONE!

    How many 55+ athletes are the best? NONE!

    Heavy squatting puts a lot of stress on your body. It's also mentally stressful to go all-out.

    I did this when I was early 20s. Now I'll be 60 in a couple of months. I don't even have to squat to have knee pain now.

    I still do squats but those days of really heavy squatting are over for me.

    Progress does slow as you reach your potential. If you can up your max by 10 to 25lbs a year that's ok. Just keep at it. It's all about the journey.

    The day comes when your strength start going in reverse. Believe it.

    As far as mass/hypertrophy gains you don't have to squat at all.

    Strength and Health!
  • billkansas
    billkansas Posts: 267 Member
    Yeah, I'll keep going no doubt. I think my conclusion is that I do need to up my volume. I'm going to track even my heavy warmups and slowly up my volume. I see that my PRs from last year came by consistency and squatting every three days light/heavy. Think my consistency has wained and perhaps overdoing warm-up sets. Slow and steady.... thanks for everyone's feedback.

    Part of my plan is reread barbell prescription and quit the chronic program hopping!

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