Creatine, Sodium, and your Liver

jflongo

Question for you guys, especially if you are an MD or PHD in nutrition.

I have watched and read a ton about how great 5g creatine per day is for you, if you are bodybuilding / powerlifting.

I have watched and read a ton about the myths of sodium, and how it's actually good to take in 3 - 6g of sodium per day, as long as you are hydrating yourself well too.

I had a Physical this morning, and my doctor cringed when I told him I started Creatine 2 months ago. He told me to keep in mind, this works the Liver harder.

I also asked him about the myth of 2.3g of sodium or less per day, and he said he still recommended that. I told him that many people are now recommend 3 - 6g per day, since your body auto regulates it and there is actually more health benefits to it.

He then said, yes your body auto regulates it, however, it puts more work on your Liver again.

So just curious if there are any experts out there on their thoughts on 5g Creatine per day, and 3 - 6g sodium per day. Is that true about putting extra work on your Liver?

psuLemon

jflongo wrote: »

Question for you guys, especially if you are an MD or PHD in nutrition.

I have watched and read a ton about how great 5g creatine per day is for you, if you are bodybuilding / powerlifting.

I have watched and read a ton about the myths of sodium, and how it's actually good to take in 3 - 6g of sodium per day, as long as you are hydrating yourself well too.

I had a Physical this morning, and my doctor cringed when I told him I started Creatine 2 months ago. He told me to keep in mind, this works the Liver harder.

I also asked him about the myth of 2.3g of sodium or less per day, and he said he still recommended that. I told him that many people are now recommend 3 - 6g per day, since your body auto regulates it and there is actually more health benefits to it.

He then said, yes your body auto regulates it, however, it puts more work on your Liver again.

So just curious if there are any experts out there on their thoughts on 5g Creatine per day, and 3 - 6g sodium per day. Is that true about putting extra work on your Liver?

Not an MD, but most MDs have little to no training or specialization in nutrition. There is no evidence that creatine causes any harm.

What is important for sodium is also balance with potassium and magnesium as they are all electrolytes. But if you habitually consume that much sodium, especially while active, it would be rare to have any adverse effects. Below is a good video on sodium from a PhD educated in nutritional sciences.

https://youtu.be/UbKk9tbNrfQ

jflongo

I have already watched that video and posted it before. I get it.

However, he just mentioned your liver works a little harder when taking creatine and when taking in extra sodium. Not necessarily that it hurts you, but puts a little more stress on your Liver. That is all I'm asking about, if anyone agrees with that.

I'm getting blood work pulled this week too, to look at my numbers.

pinggolfer96

Why does he think it stresses your liver more? I’m sure If he tested your liver enzymes you’d be fine if you’re not showing any symptoms of elevated levels. Me personally: 5grams creatine a day, 7-10mg of sodium a day (very active and well hydrated)

h1udd

Why is working your liver harder a bad thing ?

If you exercise you work your heart harder
Lift weights you work your guns harder
Eat more you work your digestive system harder
Carry more you work your bones harder

All of these things adapt ... does your liver give up the second you give it a toxin ???? ... it’s job is to deal with it hence it can repair itself without scar tissue

jflongo

Here is what he said about the Liver. Once you do any damage to it, it does NOT repair itself, so over time it could be bad. Just repeating what he said, not that I agree with it. He just mentioned taking creating works the liver more, I have no idea why personally. He said the same about sodium. I get that a lot of family doctors aren't up to date on nutrition, so was just verify if anyone had medical background and update to date, could verify any of it.

bbell1985

Hm.. interested too. I eat more sodium than the average person. Well, a lot more. I have had elevated liver enzymes as well but at the time I tested positive for mono antibodies so I assumed it was from that.

psuLemon

jflongo wrote: »

Here is what he said about the Liver. Once you do any damage to it, it does NOT repair itself, so over time it could be bad. Just repeating what he said, not that I agree with it. He just mentioned taking creating works the liver more, I have no idea why personally. He said the same about sodium. I get that a lot of family doctors aren't up to date on nutrition, so was just verify if anyone had medical background and update to date, could verify any of it.

Ironically the liver is one of the organs that can heal itself a bit. My FILs did after he stopped drinking. If there is any issue, its repeated fluctuations in sodium since your body works to regulate after the adjustment.

AnvilHead

From https://examine.com/supplements/creatine/

No known influence on circulating liver enzymes, suggesting no liver toxicity in humans. (7 studies listed)

14.4. Liver

Creatine is mostly synthesized in the liver via AGAT and GAMT[29][33] (the other locations are neurons,[35] the pancreas, and kidneys[34]) despite it not being stored in high levels in the liver like glycogen or adipose would be. Supplemental creatine is known to suppress AGAT by downregulating transcription,[31] which probably occurs in humans (since the products of AGAT are reduced with creatine supplementation).[39]

This suppression of creatine synthesis is thought to actually be beneficial, since creatine synthesis requires S-adenosylmethionine as a cofactor and may use up to 40-50% of SAMe for methylation[36][37][123] (initially thought to be above 70%, but this has since been re-evaluated[123]) though the expected preservation of SAMe may not occur with supplementation.[487] Reduced creatine synthesis, via preserving methyl groups and trimethylglycine (which would normally be used up to synthesize SAMe), is also thought to suppress homocysteine levels in serum,[38] but this may also not occur to a practical level following supplementation.[487]

Creatine is mostly synthesized in the liver. Supplementation of creatine will suppress subsequent production of creatine in the body, since high levels of creatine will suppress its own synthesis, by downregulating the enzymes of synthesis. This is a reversible suppression.

In regard to liver fat buildup (steatosis), which is normally associated with reduced availability of S-adenosyl methionine[495][496] and a suppression in expression of genes involved in fatty acid oxidation (PPARα and CPT1), creatine supplementation at 1% of the rat diet alongside a diet that induces fatty liver is able to fully prevent (and nonsignificantly reduce relative to the control given standard diets) the aforementioned changes and the state of steatosis, as well as changes in serum biomarkers (glucose and insulin) that accompany steatosis.[126]

These protective effects are similar to those seen with trimethylglycine, since they both cause an increase in liver concentrations of phosphatidylcholine (PC, causing an increase in vLDL production and efflux of triglycerides from the liver).[497] Both TMG and creatine are thought to work indirectly by preserving SAMe concentrations,[126][498] since PC synthesis requires SAMe as well (via PEMT[499]) and genes involved in fatty acid metabolism in the liver that were not affected by the diet (VLCAD and CD36) were unaffected by creatine.[126]

Creatine supplementation appears to be somewhat similar to TMG supplementation in the sense that they both promote localized synthesis of phosphatidylcholine, effluxing triglycerides from the liver into serum and thus potently protecting from diet-induced fatty liver. The concentration at which this occurs is within the range supplemented by humans.

Rats beginning an exercise program are known to experience increased serum levels of some liver enzymes (ALT and GGT). Supplementation of high levels of creatine at 4% of the diet over 60 days does not modify this effect.[500]

Young adult athletes who reported creatine usage for over two years prior to the study (retrospective design) were not significantly different than controls.[501] Elsewhere, in a similar cohort of athletes reporting creatine usage for up to four years, failed to note significant differences in liver enzymes, although a nonsignificant reduction in LDH was noted.[502]

Minor liver lesions (grade I, no grade II or III, pathology not indicative of toxicity) have been studied in SOD1 G93A transgenic mice (a research model for amyotrophic lateral sclerosis or ALS, but used in this study to assess a state of chronic pro-oxidative stress) for 159 days with 2% of feed intake and in CD-1 rats (seen as normal) over 56 days with 0.025-0.5mg/kg in CD-1 mice, although in Sprague-Dawley rats (normal controls) there were no significant differences noted even after 2% of feed intake for 365 days.[503] These observations appear to be due to the strain of the rodents used,[504][503] and human studies on ALS (what the SOD1 G93A transgenic mice are thought to represent) lasting from nine to sixteen months with subjects supplementing with up to 10g of creatine daily have failed to find any abnormalities in serum biomarkers of liver or kidney health.[505][506][507]

There appear to be species-related responses to creatine supplementation in rat livers, where some strains experience non-pathological lesions, which are minor, but indicative of hepatitis. These do not appear to influence all strains, and the human condition it is thought to mimick, ALS, does not appear to be negatively affected.

ladyreva78

jflongo wrote: »

Here is what he said about the Liver. Once you do any damage to it, it does NOT repair itself, so over time it could be bad. Just repeating what he said, not that I agree with it. He just mentioned taking creating works the liver more, I have no idea why personally. He said the same about sodium. I get that a lot of family doctors aren't up to date on nutrition, so was just verify if anyone had medical background and update to date, could verify any of it.

If that were the case, then my doctors wouldn't have told me to lose weight and keep well away from alcohol to deal with my damaged liver.

jflongo

ladyreva78 wrote: »

jflongo wrote: »

Here is what he said about the Liver. Once you do any damage to it, it does NOT repair itself, so over time it could be bad. Just repeating what he said, not that I agree with it. He just mentioned taking creating works the liver more, I have no idea why personally. He said the same about sodium. I get that a lot of family doctors aren't up to date on nutrition, so was just verify if anyone had medical background and update to date, could verify any of it.

If that were the case, then my doctors wouldn't have told me to lose weight and keep well away from alcohol to deal with my damaged liver.

Maybe they told you to do that to quit damaging it more, just saying. As far as the Liver healing itself, I have no idea. I'm starting to wonder if they were talking about the Kidneys.

NovusDies

I get my liver to work harder by threatening to fire it.

ladyreva78

jflongo wrote: »

ladyreva78 wrote: »

jflongo wrote: »

Here is what he said about the Liver. Once you do any damage to it, it does NOT repair itself, so over time it could be bad. Just repeating what he said, not that I agree with it. He just mentioned taking creating works the liver more, I have no idea why personally. He said the same about sodium. I get that a lot of family doctors aren't up to date on nutrition, so was just verify if anyone had medical background and update to date, could verify any of it.

If that were the case, then my doctors wouldn't have told me to lose weight and keep well away from alcohol to deal with my damaged liver.

Maybe they told you to do that to quit damaging it more, just saying. As far as the Liver healing itself, I have no idea. I'm starting to wonder if they were talking about the Kidneys.

If it makes you happy to believe that. But consider this: if liver damage were cumulative, the there wouldn't be enough livers in this world for all the necessary transplants. Because all NASH sufferers would eventually need new ones to survive. As it is, as long as the damage hasn't advanced to cirrhosis, then the liver has a pretty damned good chance at healing itself.

Whatever your doctor was talking about, I highly doubt it was the liver.

ladyreva78

NovusDies wrote: »

I get my liver to work harder by threatening to fire it.

Hihi mine got me to work harder by threatening divorce.

I'm so glad the pair therapy worked out

Katiebear_81

Do you have liver issues that you should be concerned about the workload? If you are otherwise in good health with no risk factors for your liver, then I wouldn't worry about it.