Keto Bodybuilders

AnvilHead

So this question spins off from a thread elsewhere - for the people who claim that calories don't matter on a ketogenic diet and you'll lose weight regardless of whether you're in a deficit or not because you're fat adapted, how do bodybuilders on a ketogenic diet bulk? How do they maintain during training and pre-contest prep if they're magically losing weight no matter how many calories they eat? And since they're completely fat-adapted, fat burning machines, what does their body do for energy when they're down to essential levels of bodyfat in pre-contest prep? And how does it not adversely affect ATP resynthesis while training at ultra-low bodyfat levels, since there's very little/no fat to draw from?

I've seen claims that there are ketogenic bodybuilders out there, and there are plenty of True Believers who claim that ketosis defies the laws of energy balance and you'll lose weight on a ketogenic diet regardless of energy balance, so I'm sure there must be some science out there which explains this. All the peer-reviewed research I've seen so far says that keto is a sub-optimal diet for strength training/hypertrophy, for several reasons.

Anybody?

bpetrosky

That's because the keto lords are actually bigger on the inside. People assume that metabolism is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... fatt-y adapt-y... stuff.”

singingflutelady

bpetrosky wrote: »

That's because the keto lords are actually bigger on the inside. People assume that metabolism is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... fatt-y adapt-y... stuff.”

For some reason keto makes people type in UPPERCASE and shout on frdays

AnvilHead

bpetrosky wrote: »

That's because the keto lords are actually bigger on the inside. People assume that metabolism is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... fatt-y adapt-y... stuff.”

*nods* Makes as much sense as anything else I've heard.

AnvilHead

TIL that you won't go 'catatonic' while in keto as long as you're eating enough protein. I guess that's a good thing. You never want to go catatonic. I just didn't know that had anything to do with protein. I'd certainly love to see the research on that also.

nvmomketo

Some do find it harder to gain while on keto, but it can be done. Lifters often add CKD or TKD in order to make greater gains. Often more carbs = more gains from more insulin.

No one magically loses weight. If they are losing but trying to gain muscle, they need to eat more.

Ketogains is a good source of info:
https://ketogains.com/

Dr Shawn Baker, a zero carb doctor and athlete has some interesting thoughts on it all too.

... And I would assume that ATP and energy would come from dietary fat. Energy usually comes form food.

concordancia

It depends on whether they adhere to the old (evidence based, repeatable) science or the new (anectdotal, opinions take priority) science.

sardelsa

I was thinking the same thing when I saw that thread.... if that is all true, how do you even put on weight with keto? After contest how would you add the necessary bodyfat back to healthy levels again if keto somehow prevents you from putting on any fat? If keto was the best diet to do it then every single top bodybuilder would be bulking and cutting in keto. Most of them are not. I have no issue with keto.. if that is the diet that works best for you, great.. but to say it is this magic muscle building fat decreasing potion where you don't have to be in a calorie deficit is where it starts to grind my gears.

AnvilHead

sardelsa wrote: »

I was thinking the same thing when I saw that thread.... if that is all true, how do you even put on weight with keto? After contest how would you add the necessary bodyfat back to healthy levels again if keto somehow prevents you from putting on any fat? If keto was the best diet to do it then every single top bodybuilder would be bulking and cutting in keto. Most of them are not. I have no issue with keto.. if that is the diet that works best for you, great.. but to say it is this magic muscle building fat decreasing potion where you don't have to be in a calorie deficit is where it starts to grind my gears.

Exactly. I don't have any problem with the ketogenic diet itself, per se. I understand that it helps some with satiety/adherence and that it can be an effective diet for weight loss as long as a caloric deficit is maintained - just as with any other diet.

But the magical, mystical, supernatural claims about it are absolutely ridiculous and there's no scientific evidence to back them up. Not a shred. And this one in particular struck me as so silly that it's comical, because it makes no sense whatsoever. How can you possibly gain or maintain weight on a diet that (hypothetically) causes weight loss no matter how many calories you eat? I'm not even sure there's a defensible/debatable point of it without resorting to claims of magick/wizardry (which is all I've seen so far from adherents to that point of view). I'd like to see some attempt to explain it in a way that makes sense and is consistent with physiology and the laws of energy balance. Otherwise, it's like trying to debate with Shouty about calories not being a tangible thing and only atoms matter.

AnvilHead

One explanation(?) tossed out there was that you attain weight/mass gain by increasing protein intake while on a ketogenic diet. There are three issues I can see with that right from the get-go:

1) If you're significantly increasing protein intake, you're also significantly increasing calorie intake. Thus, we're right back to "calories matter".

2) If you're increasing protein and compensating by reducing other macros to keep an isocaloric diet, that doesn't explain it either. You can't reduce carbs since you're not taking in enough of them to make a difference, so you'd have to reduce fat. Now you're not on a ketogenic diet anymore and you're losing the purported 'advantages' of fat adaptation. Which leads to.....

2) Proteins are as insulogenic as carbs (source), so significantly increasing protein is also going to knock you out of ketosis - therefore negating all the purported miraculous, magical benefits of ketosis upon the body. So if you're eating a lot of protein, you're not on a ketogenic diet anyway.

100_PROOF_

AnvilHead wrote: »

So this question spins off from a thread elsewhere - for the people who claim that calories don't matter on a ketogenic diet and you'll lose weight regardless of whether you're in a deficit or not because you're fat adapted, how do bodybuilders on a ketogenic diet bulk? How do they maintain during training and pre-contest prep if they're magically losing weight no matter how many calories they eat? And since they're completely fat-adapted, fat burning machines, what does their body do for energy when they're down to essential levels of bodyfat in pre-contest prep? And how does it not adversely affect ATP resynthesis while training at ultra-low bodyfat levels, since there's very little/no fat to draw from?

I've seen claims that there are ketogenic bodybuilders out there, and there are plenty of True Believers who claim that ketosis defies the laws of energy balance and you'll lose weight on a ketogenic diet regardless of energy balance, so I'm sure there must be some science out there which explains this. All the peer-reviewed research I've seen so far says that keto is a sub-optimal diet for strength training/hypertrophy, for several reasons.

Anybody?

I always find it funny when they say that one will automatically lose weight while in ketosis. So what happens after like 20 years in ketosis? Will the person magically disappear because they shrunk to just bones? Lol!

I also like when they mention the keto athletes and body builders but forget to mention that most aren't in ketosis or even low carb for the entire time and are only going low carb for short bursts rather then any extended time frame.

I think people want to believe in these magical things but don't want to know the science behind it because in their hearts they know it's not true. If there was any truth to all their mystical magical claims, they'd have some real proof rather than blogs and magazines and Fung.

Keto_Vampire

Can't think of any high level/professional ("big") bodybuilders who do keto...
Can't say ketosis bypasses the laws of physics like some claim either...

IMHO, there are too many sedentary keyboard warrior keto advocates who take this waaay too seriously when he/she has marginal success losing a few pounds going against conventional methods.

100_PROOF_ wrote: »

AnvilHead wrote: »

So this question spins off from a thread elsewhere - for the people who claim that calories don't matter on a ketogenic diet and you'll lose weight regardless of whether you're in a deficit or not because you're fat adapted, how do bodybuilders on a ketogenic diet bulk? How do they maintain during training and pre-contest prep if they're magically losing weight no matter how many calories they eat? And since they're completely fat-adapted, fat burning machines, what does their body do for energy when they're down to essential levels of bodyfat in pre-contest prep? And how does it not adversely affect ATP resynthesis while training at ultra-low bodyfat levels, since there's very little/no fat to draw from?

I've seen claims that there are ketogenic bodybuilders out there, and there are plenty of True Believers who claim that ketosis defies the laws of energy balance and you'll lose weight on a ketogenic diet regardless of energy balance, so I'm sure there must be some science out there which explains this. All the peer-reviewed research I've seen so far says that keto is a sub-optimal diet for strength training/hypertrophy, for several reasons.

Anybody?

I always find it funny when they say that one will automatically lose weight while in ketosis. So what happens after like 20 years in ketosis? Will the person magically disappear because they shrunk to just bones? Lol!

I also like when they mention the keto athletes and body builders but forget to mention that most aren't in ketosis or even low carb for the entire time and are only going low carb for short bursts rather then any extended time frame.

I think people want to believe in these magical things but don't want to know the science behind it because in their hearts they know it's not true. If there was any truth to all their mystical magical claims, they'd have some real proof rather than blogs and magazines and Fung.

Ha, most of these "beleivers" can't stay on a diet more than a month at best or start perpetually playing the blame game with dairy, artificial sweeteners, nuts/legumes, protein, eating more than 20g/carbohydrate/day, etc. from interfering with his/her progress.

Reality: most of us "keto bodybuilders"/weightlifters/athletes/etc. do higher protein (yes, insulin releasing too), restrict carbohydrates, & play around with fat intake to manipulate total kcals. It's Bastardized keto or a Dave Palumbo version of keto (which is not really keto)