Does slow bulk = less fat gain?

dill_milk

Do you gain mostly muscle when eating a small surplus or is the ratio of fat:muscle still 1:1? Say you only gained 2 pounds in a month. Would that be 1 pound muscle and 1 pound fat? If so, what is the advantage over gaining 4 pounds a month, 2 pounds muscle 2 pounds fat? Are your extra calories rationed to your muscles first and then everything after that is fat, or does your body distribute those extra calories to your muscles and fat evenly until muscle is maxed out and then shifts 100% to fat?

sardelsa

As far as I know the ratio is still the same or similar, so while you gain less fat you gain less muscle too. On the other hand more gain doesn't necessarily equal more muscle, there is a cut-off where only so much muscle can be made and the rest will be fat gain. That is why it is recommended to keep the surplus under a certain level to reduce fat gains.

The benefit of very lean bulking (just a hair over maintenance type idea) is to gain but keep the bodyfat % down, the gain is more manageable.. eventually the fat gain can catch up let's say if you were bulking over a year or so, but it could be easier to deal with. That being said most people choose something in between because a very lean bulk is slow. It depends on your goals, your starting point and how much time you want to spend building.

I've done it both ways. With my second bulk I was gaining around a 1lb per month. I did this for 4 months and eventually got fed up because my progress was just too slow for my liking. Sure I stayed lean but I wasn't growing much either!

There is an awesome debate about slow vs faster bulks, I'm going to try to find the link for you.

sardelsa

Here is the full Bulking debate between Eric Helms and Mike Israetel

https://youtube.com/watch?v=ZFIsCWnHiaI&t=1182s

And here is the summary video

https://youtube.com/watch?v=GTJqcKnTs5I

SecantSix

It sounds like you're asking about calorie partitioning (i.e., how the body divides up calories between muscle and fat). Here are some articles on calorie partitioning, rates of muscle gain, and the ever-important P-ratio:
https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/calorie-partitioning-part-1.html/
https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/muscle-gain-math.html/#more-13913
https://bodyrecomposition.com/muscle-gain/initial-body-fat-and-body-composition-changes.html/

I'm new to this, so I encourage you to read the articles, but here's the short version as I understand it:

• For optimal muscle gain, first cut down to 10-12% body fat for men, 19-24% for women. This will encourage calories to go toward muscle growth.
• Eat a caloric surplus, based on the maximum rate of muscle gain for your training level, planning on half your weight gain to be fat and half to be muscle. So if you're a beginner, a 500-calorie surplus would give you about 2 pounds of muscle and 2 pounds of fat each month, which is pretty good. An intermediate lifter, who has already built a good deal of muscle, might only want to do a 250-calorie surplus for 1 pound of muscle and 1 pound of fat each month. Note that you might be able to still hit your maximum rate of muscle gain with a smaller surplus, based on genetics or other factors, but planning on a 1:1 ratio is a good benchmark that makes sure you hit that maximum.
• I'm guessing that your extra calories are rationed to muscle and fat at the same time, but the size of your surplus determines the ratio. So a 100-calorie surplus might give you a better muscle-to-fat gain ratio, but you probably won't gain as much overall muscle over the course of the month.
• Make sure you eat plenty of protein (0.8 grams per pound of bodyweight is the number I see everywhere) and plenty of high-quality carbs and fats. Protein builds new muscle, and high-quality carbs and fats impair the breakdown of current muscle and increase insulin sensitivity. Low-quality carbs and fats impairs insulin sensitivity, which is bad for muscle gain. Ultimately you need to hit your caloric surplus to grow, but don't knock back three protein shakes and two boxes of Oreos and call it a day. Eat the good stuff.
• As you gain, keep an eye on your body fat percentage. Once you get over 15% for men or 24-27% for women, consider taking a break from weight gain to trim back down to keep your calories headed towards muscle.

middlehaitch

Just want to note that in the quote by @SecantSix the 50/50 muscle/fat gain is for men.
Women, under ideal conditions, have a gain that is closer to 30/70 muscle/fat.

(Sorry @sardelsa if that is in the videos you posted, on my phone so can't watch)

Cheers, h.

(I don't have the source, it was the answers I got from a trusted poster when I asked the question)

Davidsdottir

middlehaitch wrote: »

Just want to note that in the quote by @SecantSix the 50/50 muscle/fat gain is for men.
Women, under ideal conditions, have a gain that is closer to 30/70 muscle/fat.

(Sorry @sardelsa if that is in the videos you posted, on my phone so can't watch)

Cheers, h.

(I don't have the source, it was the answers I got from a trusted poster when I asked the question)

Honestly, I'd usually completely agree, but my actual results have yielded a more favorable ratio than that. I'm a 36yo female, not my first bulk. Have gained 10-12 lbs so far, and my bf % barely went up.

Chieflrg

Davidsdottir wrote: »

middlehaitch wrote: »

Just want to note that in the quote by @SecantSix the 50/50 muscle/fat gain is for men.
Women, under ideal conditions, have a gain that is closer to 30/70 muscle/fat.

(Sorry @sardelsa if that is in the videos you posted, on my phone so can't watch)

Cheers, h.

(I don't have the source, it was the answers I got from a trusted poster when I asked the question)

Honestly, I'd usually completely agree, but my actual results have yielded a more favorable ratio than that. I'm a 36yo female, not my first bulk. Have gained 10-12 lbs so far, and my bf % barely went up.

That's because those are averages. Men or females of age 40+ will gave significantly lower muscle gain on average than the numbers stated.

Also factor such as how male you are, how optimal your training is, how resistant you are to training, all these things are part of the cookie we eat.

Davidsdottir

Chieflrg wrote: »

Davidsdottir wrote: »

middlehaitch wrote: »

Just want to note that in the quote by @SecantSix the 50/50 muscle/fat gain is for men.
Women, under ideal conditions, have a gain that is closer to 30/70 muscle/fat.

(Sorry @sardelsa if that is in the videos you posted, on my phone so can't watch)

Cheers, h.

(I don't have the source, it was the answers I got from a trusted poster when I asked the question)

Honestly, I'd usually completely agree, but my actual results have yielded a more favorable ratio than that. I'm a 36yo female, not my first bulk. Have gained 10-12 lbs so far, and my bf % barely went up.

That's because those are averages. Men or females of age 40+ will gave significantly lower muscle gain on average than the numbers stated.

Also factor such as how male you are, how optimal your training is, how resistant you are to training, all these things are part of the cookie we eat.

Now I want a cookie. Thank goodness for bulking LOL

True. I did a bulk while taking the pill once...total fat gain. This was by far my best bulk ever. Training, food, and mindset were all ideal.

middlehaitch

Davidsdottir wrote: »

middlehaitch wrote: »

Just want to note that in the quote by @SecantSix the 50/50 muscle/fat gain is for men.
Women, under ideal conditions, have a gain that is closer to 30/70 muscle/fat.

(Sorry @sardelsa if that is in the videos you posted, on my phone so can't watch)

Cheers, h.

(I don't have the source, it was the answers I got from a trusted poster when I asked the question)

Honestly, I'd usually completely agree, but my actual results have yielded a more favorable ratio than that. I'm a 36yo female, not my first bulk. Have gained 10-12 lbs so far, and my bf % barely went up.

I think your results are so good because you are diligent, and on point with nutrition and training, probably way more than 80% of the time.

I would guess, given the opportunity (life has been crazy these last 18month) to train consistently again, I would be close, or less, than the ratio for women given my age.

It is a generalization, but worth pointing out as most of the muscle gain ratios are given for men. There is much less research available on women's muscle gain ratio as far as I know.

Congrats on your gains, you look soooo strong.

Cheers, h.

TR0berts

middlehaitch wrote: »

Just want to note that in the quote by @SecantSix the 50/50 muscle/fat gain is for men.
Women, under ideal conditions, have a gain that is closer to 30/70 muscle/fat.

(Sorry @sardelsa if that is in the videos you posted, on my phone so can't watch)

Cheers, h.

(I don't have the source, it was the answers I got from a trusted poster when I asked the question)

This meta-analysis by Greg Nuckols (https://www.strongerbyscience.com/strength-training-women/) may be of interest.

edit: TL/DR: doesn't appear to be a real difference between men and women.

middlehaitch

Thanks for the link @TR0berts.

I do love you guys for always providing interesting things for me to read, and then think about.

Cheers, h.

TR0berts

On further reflection, that refers to "relative" gains. As such, since it was noted that women generally start off with less muscle, a similar % of LBM gain might end up being 30/70 (or somewhat less than 50/50) after all.

I guess I really should dig into the studies myself. I guess I know what I'll be doing this weekend.