Anyone cutting after a bulk?
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This is my first cut (after a bulk anyway, I've lost weight before but not with the goal of seeing newly added muscles!) and I'm not loving it. I've been lazy about sticking to my nutrition and also switched from slowly adding weight via pyramid sets to doing straight sets on my bench press, squats and deadlifts. I've still lost what I wanted to so far, but I feel totally exhausted after the gym each day. I'd love some of your wisdom on toughing it out or switching it up. Do you run the same program in a bulk and in a cut?1
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Your back looks amazing @pinggolfer96!
@Alexson50 - I am running the same program. I am supposed to do sets of 8. I am not making it through to 8 on some of my lifts - but no big deal.
I wanted to maintain 108-110 pounds and was hoping to get to 109 and start reversing to maintenance. About a week and a half ago I was around 111. I have been sitting at 112 for a week and very bloated. I usually see a scale increase twice a month and then drop a little bit lower once the bloating subsides. I am at the point where I need a diet break. I kinda want to wait a few more days to see what the scale drop will be - so I have an idea of how many calories to eat.
Last year I plowed through and dropped my weight down to 106 and things started getting wonky. I thought I was perimenopausal but everything returned to normal after eating more. Thoughts on the diet break - is a month long enough to normalize those hormones?0 -
month is definitely long enough. 10-14 days is almost certainly long enough too0
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Your back looks amazing @pinggolfer96!
@Alexson50 - I am running the same program. I am supposed to do sets of 8. I am not making it through to 8 on some of my lifts - but no big deal.
I wanted to maintain 108-110 pounds and was hoping to get to 109 and start reversing to maintenance. About a week and a half ago I was around 111. I have been sitting at 112 for a week and very bloated. I usually see a scale increase twice a month and then drop a little bit lower once the bloating subsides. I am at the point where I need a diet break. I kinda want to wait a few more days to see what the scale drop will be - so I have an idea of how many calories to eat.
Last year I plowed through and dropped my weight down to 106 and things started getting wonky. I thought I was perimenopausal but everything returned to normal after eating more. Thoughts on the diet break - is a month long enough to normalize those hormones?
A diet break can be a couple of days or it can be a week. It can be as long as you like. You would likely eat at maintenance during your diet break.
If I might ask, do you include "re-feed days" in your current set up? My guess would be that you do not.
Essentially, and I am sure that everyone has a slightly different understanding, a re-feed is eating at maintenance (so, you up your caloric intake to maintenance for those two days) and your protein and fat macros stay the same....you essentially up your carbs). Recent studies show that there are great benefits to having two consecutive re-feed days but you can do it however best suits you. Naturally, a re-feed is GREAT for you mentally. Lots of people will tell you that they live for those re-feed days....that they know that there is a light at the end of the tunnel....that they can push through the diet because the re-feed is getting closer and closer.
Hope this helps.0 -
Your back looks amazing @pinggolfer96!
@Alexson50 - I am running the same program. I am supposed to do sets of 8. I am not making it through to 8 on some of my lifts - but no big deal.
I wanted to maintain 108-110 pounds and was hoping to get to 109 and start reversing to maintenance. About a week and a half ago I was around 111. I have been sitting at 112 for a week and very bloated. I usually see a scale increase twice a month and then drop a little bit lower once the bloating subsides. I am at the point where I need a diet break. I kinda want to wait a few more days to see what the scale drop will be - so I have an idea of how many calories to eat.
Last year I plowed through and dropped my weight down to 106 and things started getting wonky. I thought I was perimenopausal but everything returned to normal after eating more. Thoughts on the diet break - is a month long enough to normalize those hormones?
Thanks!
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I am definitely not low carb. Most of my cutting calories come from fat. I am averaging 210-240 carbs. This is actually pretty close to what i normally eat. If I was cutting more aggressively my carbs would take a hit.
I have have been having 1-2 higher calorie days a week. Of course the majority of the increase has been from fat - as it is usually a tasty dessert.
Looking at my calendar - if I take a maintenance break now I won't get back to cutting until June 18th when I return from vacation.0 -
This is my first cut (after a bulk anyway, I've lost weight before but not with the goal of seeing newly added muscles!) and I'm not loving it. I've been lazy about sticking to my nutrition and also switched from slowly adding weight via pyramid sets to doing straight sets on my bench press, squats and deadlifts. I've still lost what I wanted to so far, but I feel totally exhausted after the gym each day. I'd love some of your wisdom on toughing it out or switching it up. Do you run the same program in a bulk and in a cut?
You can retain muscle while cutting if you keep the intensity (=weight on the bar) at the same amount, even if you reduce volume (=total # of reps) and frequency (=# of times you do that lift per week).
So, to answer your question, no, I don't run the same program when cutting. I have cut my volume by 1/3, which just means I drop one set from each exercise, since most of my exercises are 3 sets. If I don't do that, I am completely wrecked by the end of the workout and I can't recover in time for the next day's program or the day after's program. And that is a recipe for disaster.
This article explains what is going on workout-wise when cutting: https://www.aworkoutroutine.com/how-to-lose-fat-without-losing-muscle/
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edickson76 wrote: »You can retain muscle while cutting if you keep the intensity (=weight on the bar) at the same amount, even if you reduce volume (=total # of reps) and frequency (=# of times you do that lift per week).
This has been the accepted advice for a long time now but the science backed community has started to change it's opinion.
The recent studies on volume as the primary driver for hypertrophy means that keeping volume high during a cut is more important that the intensity.
Mike talks about it here, with Eric backing up Mike's argument.
https://youtu.be/V5iwggPO-S0?t=48m44s
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Mike has a very different personality. I like listening to him speak (and how his colleagues respond). Eric is the s**t....That young man knows a thing or two. I have not listened to this pod cast yet. It is on my list of things to do today, though (funny how things work out with timing).0
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The video starts at the moment Mike and Eric discuss volume and intensity during a cut.
It's only a couple of minutes, you don't have to watch the whole vid.0 -
I am a subscriber to Steve (Revive Stronger) so I *ALWAYS* watch them all.....but good point and excellent idea about posting the link right at the point of the "relevant" conversation. Thanks, man! I also subscribe to Team3DMJ.....man, I should be in MUCH better shape! LOL!0
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Speaking of Steve and Eric Helms......love this conversation (but I say that about all of their conversations):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxt5rRLZMIM
Sorry, folks. Quick digression from the topic at hand....let's get back on track here.... :-)0 -
The video starts at the moment Mike and Eric discuss volume and intensity during a cut.
It's only a couple of minutes, you don't have to watch the whole vid.
Thanks for posting that! Much appreciated. I'm aware of the newer research on volume as the primary driver of hypertrophy, but I haven't seen any research on volume as the primary driver of muscle retention during a cut. Is there such research, or is this a hypothesis based on the known hypertrophy research?0 -
edickson76 wrote: »... but I haven't seen any research on volume as the primary driver of muscle retention during a cut. Is there such research, or is this a hypothesis based on the known hypertrophy research?
I haven't seen any research. It does make sense when you think about it.
This is the first time I've came across it being proposed.
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RFL cut continues, starting week 3 today. Last week was a bit of a challenge due to a family dinner out (used my free meal on a pork burrito, chips/salsa, and some guac) and a party to watch the Cavs game Saturday night (scheduled refeed, plenty of carbs). Had 3 drinks at the party which is not a part of the diet at all but they were delicious and I'll accept the consequences of a bit of inefficiency in fat loss. The scale certainly reflects my slip up but I'm not too concerned as I expect a decent drop this week as I straighten up and get back to routine.
Starting Weight - 216lbs
End of week 1 - 208lbs
End of week 2 - 206
Weight was 204.5 before my free meal and weighed 206.25 today. The fluctuations can drive me crazy so I try to only focus on my weekly average (weight in daily Mon-Fri). With Memorial weekend coming up I'll have to really buckle down so I can feel good about wrapping this up after week 4 to prep for vacation/maintenance.2 -
edickson76 wrote: »... but I haven't seen any research on volume as the primary driver of muscle retention during a cut. Is there such research, or is this a hypothesis based on the known hypertrophy research?
I haven't seen any research. It does make sense when you think about it.
This is the first time I've came across it being proposed.
It makes sense, if one takes Menno's approach, which is to keep building muscle while in a deficit. Then, of course, volume would be the main driver of building that muscle. I don't know enough physiology to know if sending signals to the body to build more muscle is the same or different than signals to retain muscle. But, per Lyle, we have studies showing that intensity maintains the muscle, even if we drop volume and frequency.
I have been looking around for other commentary about this topic. I've found a post by Israetel (https://renaissanceperiodization.com/minicuts-dr-mike-israetel/) from last October on mini-cuts which says the following in his tip#5:
That seems at odds with what he said in the video you posted...Cardio is just fine to do and is recommended during mini cuts, but the training volume should be pretty low, right around MEV and usually not much higher. Why? Because this will keep all the muscle we built (not hard on a minicut) but save our volume sensitivity for massing, cause that’s when we’ll really want to push things to gain the most muscle.
I also looked on Revive Stronger's website and found a discussion on cutting workouts (http://revivestronger.com/2015/11/04/the-get-shredded-series-part-4-weight-training/):
The article is from 2015, but it is linked in a 2017 article.However, when trying to get shredded we do not have the fuel for adding mass, so rather we need to find a training volume that maintains our muscle.
In a study of 70 untrained adults it was found muscle size was maintained with as low as one third of the volume that was required to initially give the adaption. Of course many of us are trained, so this might not be directly useful, however we can predict that we can maintain mass with frequent periods of lower volume training. This will help us recover during a time when our ability to recoup is severely reduced. This can be done through deloads, where volume is reduced heavily, and whereas when you might deload every 5th week normally, maybe when dieting you deload every 3rd or 4th week. Alternatively you could taper your volume for say 2 weeks or so and slowly increase it, in a wave like fashion, the key is we can allow for lower training volumes that will maintain mass and allow us to recover.
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@edickson76
Regarding Mike's not dropping volume in favour of intensity.
I'm assuming it depends on how much volume you were doing prior to the cut.
His MRV guidelines are higher than 20 sets per week in some cases, so yeah you'll have to drop some volume.
But if you're just plodding along at MEV trying to get in shape for the summer, then you'd want to try and keep the volume the same.
I watch these videos with two things in mind..
1. Who is this particular piece of advice aimed at, pro natural bodybuilder or someone like me trying to keep in shape.
2. The coach advice giving one on one training, or general popular advice found in a book.
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Really interesting discussion about volume vs intensity. I honestly stick to what I do during a bulk but just try to keep up progression in some way, either maintaining weight on the bar or volume. It does depend on the lift, which bodypart and where I am in my program cycle. My program is always changing though so I typically don't have an issue with it.
My cut is going... now that the water weight/bloat is gone I can see a true view of things and I keep flip flopping thinking I may want to transition to a hair below maintenance or recomp but then ahh I am so impatient. Good news is that if I am only losing 0.25lb per week or maintaining some weeks, I am good with that since I am not in a rush to cut down. So basically, as long as I am not gaining, I think I will be good.
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Really interesting discussion about volume vs intensity. I honestly stick to what I do during a bulk but just try to keep up progression in some way, either maintaining weight on the bar or volume. It does depend on the lift, which bodypart and where I am in my program cycle. My program is always changing though so I typically don't have an issue with it.
My cut is going... now that the water weight/bloat is gone I can see a true view of things and I keep flip flopping thinking I may want to transition to a hair below maintenance or recomp but then ahh I am so impatient. Good news is that if I am only losing 0.25lb per week or maintaining some weeks, I am good with that since I am not in a rush to cut down. So basically, as long as I am not gaining, I think I will be good.
I also keep changing my mind as well! I was thinking to swap to maintenance for a tiny bit. Then I dropped some hormone weight and a little extra it is pretty motivating! So far this week compliance has been a breeze. I am pretty sure next week I will flip back!2 -
Kicked up everything but dropped protein to around 200-220 average. Hitting a bit above 3k calories this last week for maintenance and gained 4 pounds of water weight post cut. Feel much better and joints finally healing. Will bump up calories next week. I’ll miss my abs but tired of feeling so scrawny.
Ate an entire small pizza for lunch today. It was glorious. 2 -
Told you, @sardelsa !!!! Recomp, baby LOL0
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@edickson76
Regarding Mike's not dropping volume in favour of intensity.
I'm assuming it depends on how much volume you were doing prior to the cut.
His MRV guidelines are higher than 20 sets per week in some cases, so yeah you'll have to drop some volume.
But if you're just plodding along at MEV trying to get in shape for the summer, then you'd want to try and keep the volume the same.
Apologies to everyone other than @sardelsa who might be sick of this discussion. For anyone who is still following along but wondering what MRV and MEV are...MRV is maximum recoverable volume and MEV is minimum effective volume. There is a good discussion of these concepts in "The Volume Roundtable" episode on Jeff Nippard's channel. Mike argues for MRV, Eric argues for a version of MEV. Layne Norton and Greg Nuckols are also on there.
Fully agree that volume must drop if one is pursuing MRV. During a cut, recovery diminishes; so recoverable volume would necessarily drop.
Not sure on MEV. That's minimum volume to grow muscles. If I'm not trying to grow muscles in a cut, do I necessarily need the same volume? Or do I just need the same intensity?
I found Lyle's articles on this topic (Part 1: https://bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-1.html/ ; Part 2: https://bodyrecomposition.com/training/weight-training-for-fat-loss-part-2.html/ ). Interestingly, his argument is
That is the same argument I see now on the "maintain volume" argument. The difference I see; however, is that the intensity argument, when in a cut, has some studies backing it up. Those same studies counsel against a volume approach when in a cut.I’ll simply say here that the high tension stimulus that builds muscle is the exact same high tension stimulus that will maintain muscle mass when you’re dieting.
This is leading me to think that volume is the primary driver of hypertrophy, but for maintaining muscle intensity is the primary driver. I confess to not being fully confident. When Eric, Mike, and Menno all align against you, it gives one pause. Thanks again, @pbyrd for posting that and discussing.3 -
@edickson76 I find the discussion very interesting. However, having done both approaches (high volume low intensity) and more recently (high intensity, lowered volume and frequency) for me there is no debate. I lost significant strength with the volume approach and I kept 100% of my strength with Lyle's approach. In the video above it's mentioned at one point that the weight on the bar is great metric to measure growth. Wouldn't that also make it a great metric to measure loss? I've always had to spend a lot of time recovering my lifts with the volume approach and this time around I've been able to pick up exactly where I left off and in some cases I've busted through a couple of plateaus. So, for me at least, there really is no debate. I'll never approach a cut with high volume and low intensity again.
I also wonder if longer more aggressive cuts react less favorably to the volume approach as opposed to shorter "mini-cuts". I've never been a proponent of short frequent cuts as I personally think they involve a lot of wheel spinning for most people.2 -
Really interesting discussion about volume vs intensity. I honestly stick to what I do during a bulk but just try to keep up progression in some way, either maintaining weight on the bar or volume. It does depend on the lift, which bodypart and where I am in my program cycle. My program is always changing though so I typically don't have an issue with it.
My cut is going... now that the water weight/bloat is gone I can see a true view of things and I keep flip flopping thinking I may want to transition to a hair below maintenance or recomp but then ahh I am so impatient. Good news is that if I am only losing 0.25lb per week or maintaining some weeks, I am good with that since I am not in a rush to cut down. So basically, as long as I am not gaining, I think I will be good.
I also keep changing my mind as well! I was thinking to swap to maintenance for a tiny bit. Then I dropped some hormone weight and a little extra it is pretty motivating! So far this week compliance has been a breeze. I am pretty sure next week I will flip back!
@bioklutz this is me... one day I am like.. ooo recomp.. the next day it's like.. oh man.. it's gonna be like watching plate tectonics, forget it
@Davidsdottir ...hahaha
I am still borderline .. I don't want to fully maintain but just lose very slowly. For now at least! 1 -
@jseams1234 I agree. I worked really hard to get my lift numbers up! My current workout has me doing 3 sets of 8. I always try to get a small increase in weight on the bar and do all 8 reps but I often don't make it on some of my lifts. For example, it took me 4 weeks to add a pound to overhead press and to get all 8 reps (very victorious morning!). I cringe to think of what some of my lifts would be if I favoured volume.1
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@jseams1234 I agree. I worked really hard to get my lift numbers up! My current workout has me doing 3 sets of 8. I always try to get a small increase in weight on the bar and do all 8 reps but I often don't make it on some of my lifts. For example, it took me 4 weeks to add a pound to overhead press and to get all 8 reps (very victorious morning!). I cringe to think of what some of my lifts would be if I favoured volume.
Yeah, it's definitely a balancing act. I usually do 4 sets of 8-10 on most lifts during hypertrophy phase and 5 reps x 5 sets for the power days. After a month or so on my cut there was no way in heck I was getting that number of sets without killing myself for the next workout. I just dropped a complete set. Then a bit later I got rid of the hypertrophy days and just did power days with 4 sets.... then dropped it to 3 sets. Final stages of the cut I dropped a complete day out of rotation and all isolation/accessory. I never dropped the weight....
The only downside, I think I may have mentioned before, is my joints got really really "crunchy" and painful. Healing up now and almost back to normal.
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@jseams1234 I agree. I worked really hard to get my lift numbers up! My current workout has me doing 3 sets of 8. I always try to get a small increase in weight on the bar and do all 8 reps but I often don't make it on some of my lifts. For example, it took me 4 weeks to add a pound to overhead press and to get all 8 reps (very victorious morning!). I cringe to think of what some of my lifts would be if I favoured volume.
Progressive Overload is a wonderful thing. Keep in mind that there are lots and lots of ways to accomplish that:
1. put more weight on the bar
2. do more reps
3. do more sets
4. take a shorter rest period between each set
I tend to overdo things. I would be killing it, doing 5x5 or 8x3 or 6x4 or 4x6 (I liked to swap things up) at 85% of 1RM and three or four months later I would hurt myself. Too high intensity for too long. No deload week just power through. Well, don't be a fool like I was.....
I totally get the excitement of chasing numbers. I was doing that. Set the goal and reach it. Well, I got a little too caught up in that chase. It is really easy to get lost in that chase.
Anyway, sounds like everyone has a great understanding of themselves. We have only one body in this lifetime....it is a great thing to listen to it! :-)1 -
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Mexicangreensalsa wrote: »After bulking and getting used to being able to eat so much it is SOOO hard to cut back. I am having so much trouble even going back to maintenance. I got so used to my new "routine" of food and now am struggling to cut back. Next time I will bulk by adding something easy to take away that I won't miss. I did not foresee the cut being so hard. Where is my willpower?! lol
Yup... That was my biggest fear coming out of this bulk. Let's just say my eating got really grimy by the end
. Also kind of miss not having to think before eating something. What I don't miss is the constant bloated full feeling.
I experiment and try to find low calorie options that still taste great. For example I am really into soups so I will add shrimp or chicken, zucchini noodles, veggies and spices to broth and it takes a lot of time to eat and tastes amazing. Also taco bowls with lots of veggies and lettuce. My food has to taste good so it doesn't feel like I am depriving myself.1 -
Yesterday kicked off week 4 of rfl cut and progress has slowed a bit:
Starting Weight - 216lbs
End of week 1 - 208lbs
End of week 2 - 206
End of week 3 - 203
This passed weekend was a bit rough and I fell off the program Friday by having a few drinks. Was able to mostly keep my eating under control but the booze calories were heavier than I wanted. Also, during my refeed at a family party on Sunday, I ate too many desserts with high fat and sugar. But, all my free time was filled with heavy yard work so I'm not stressing it much. Back to the routine as of yesterday and will end the run this coming Sunday. After that, I'll spend a week building up to maintenance followed by two weeks vacation at maintenance (as much as possible) then I'll reassess whether to run a few more weeks of rfl or a more traditional cut.2
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