If you think you've plateau'd - read this

TAsunder

I'm sorry, but I refuse to listen to the advice of someone whose math does not add up after saying "Calorie calculators will only take you so far, so lets put things in perspective, real life math."

Just after talking about real life math, the guy made a giant diagram with giant red arrows and then failed at basic math. The 3 arrows show a total of 210 which would be 1995.

You've actually not made a useful point here. And missed the entire point of it, but it's ok, refuse good solid advice & remain fat, whatever

I thought the entire link did not make a useful point.

He starts off by misunderstanding what a plateau is by making it sound like they were never losing weight in the first place. I can find no other reason why he talks about people trying to out-exercise a bad diet or the like. A plateau implies stalled momentum which implies initial momentum. My first suggestion for anyone who plateaus is to re-check your assumptions. If you have lost 20 lbs then your caloric needs have changed. Going off the same assumed maintenance calories is a common mistake.

In any case, then he goes on to the "meat" of the discussion which is nothing new or interesting and has been stated a million times here before. Unfortunately he repeatedly asserts that a plateau can ONLY be solved by changing your diet. Not true at all. Yeah, it might be easier for some people to cut out one slice of "ezekiel bread" for 100 calories, but it is not that much additional effort to burn 100 more calories. That's about 15 minutes of moderate intensity exercise. Why isn't that an option?

And he adds insult to injury by using inaccurate math.

Why is it everyone else finds this useful, and everyone else at bodybuilding.com finds this useful, but you do not?

He also states you don't HAVE to do increased activity. He doesn't say you can't do it. You're being very petty.

Anything is an "option" but you're just being ridiculous.

He directly states "Improper calculations of food intake are the cause" and "at this point its time to reevaluate what you are eating" and "If weight is not coming off, you are eating too much" and "You would eat a target caloric intake, and then based on your results, add or take away food to decrease or expedite weight loss" and then talks about people needing to feel hungry.

I don't know why people find it useful. I would guess anyone who has been here long enough just ignored it or found it amusing. I only posted in this thread initially because of the hilarity of someone talking about how we just need to do basic math and then himself failing at basic math.

No you're just extremely petty and childish, that's why you posted in the thread. People always BLAME a plateau, look at the responses in this thread apart from yours. You're being a clown.

I might have been a clown initially in an obviously non-serious way. But since you took it so seriously and personally, I felt obliged to point out the NUMEROUS problems in the link. If you look at it mostly out of focus and ignore half of the sentences in it, I suppose you could glimmer some helpful information out of it -- that you can make small adjustments to your diet if you plateau and it might help. But the way he blames food for everything is pretty absurd.

ritchiedrama

I'm sorry, but I refuse to listen to the advice of someone whose math does not add up after saying "Calorie calculators will only take you so far, so lets put things in perspective, real life math."

Just after talking about real life math, the guy made a giant diagram with giant red arrows and then failed at basic math. The 3 arrows show a total of 210 which would be 1995.

You've actually not made a useful point here. And missed the entire point of it, but it's ok, refuse good solid advice & remain fat, whatever

I thought the entire link did not make a useful point.

He starts off by misunderstanding what a plateau is by making it sound like they were never losing weight in the first place. I can find no other reason why he talks about people trying to out-exercise a bad diet or the like. A plateau implies stalled momentum which implies initial momentum. My first suggestion for anyone who plateaus is to re-check your assumptions. If you have lost 20 lbs then your caloric needs have changed. Going off the same assumed maintenance calories is a common mistake.

In any case, then he goes on to the "meat" of the discussion which is nothing new or interesting and has been stated a million times here before. Unfortunately he repeatedly asserts that a plateau can ONLY be solved by changing your diet. Not true at all. Yeah, it might be easier for some people to cut out one slice of "ezekiel bread" for 100 calories, but it is not that much additional effort to burn 100 more calories. That's about 15 minutes of moderate intensity exercise. Why isn't that an option?

And he adds insult to injury by using inaccurate math.

Why is it everyone else finds this useful, and everyone else at bodybuilding.com finds this useful, but you do not?

He also states you don't HAVE to do increased activity. He doesn't say you can't do it. You're being very petty.

Anything is an "option" but you're just being ridiculous.

He directly states "Improper calculations of food intake are the cause" and "at this point its time to reevaluate what you are eating" and "If weight is not coming off, you are eating too much" and "You would eat a target caloric intake, and then based on your results, add or take away food to decrease or expedite weight loss" and then talks about people needing to feel hungry.

I don't know why people find it useful. I would guess anyone who has been here long enough just ignored it or found it amusing. I only posted in this thread initially because of the hilarity of someone talking about how we just need to do basic math and then himself failing at basic math.

No you're just extremely petty and childish, that's why you posted in the thread. People always BLAME a plateau, look at the responses in this thread apart from yours. You're being a clown.

I might have been a clown initially in an obviously non-serious way. But since you took it so seriously and personally, I felt obliged to point out the NUMEROUS problems in the link. If you look at it mostly out of focus and ignore half of the sentences in it, I suppose you could glimmer some helpful information out of it -- that you can make small adjustments to your diet if you plateau and it might help. But the way he blames food for everything is pretty absurd.

Food + Humans = always the thing to blame.

WendyTerry420

I'm sorry, but I refuse to listen to the advice of someone whose math does not add up after saying "Calorie calculators will only take you so far, so lets put things in perspective, real life math."

Just after talking about real life math, the guy made a giant diagram with giant red arrows and then failed at basic math. The 3 arrows show a total of 210 which would be 1995.

You've actually not made a useful point here. And missed the entire point of it, but it's ok, refuse good solid advice & remain fat, whatever

I thought the entire link did not make a useful point.

He starts off by misunderstanding what a plateau is by making it sound like they were never losing weight in the first place. I can find no other reason why he talks about people trying to out-exercise a bad diet or the like. A plateau implies stalled momentum which implies initial momentum. My first suggestion for anyone who plateaus is to re-check your assumptions. If you have lost 20 lbs then your caloric needs have changed. Going off the same assumed maintenance calories is a common mistake.

In any case, then he goes on to the "meat" of the discussion which is nothing new or interesting and has been stated a million times here before. Unfortunately he repeatedly asserts that a plateau can ONLY be solved by changing your diet. Not true at all. Yeah, it might be easier for some people to cut out one slice of "ezekiel bread" for 100 calories, but it is not that much additional effort to burn 100 more calories. That's about 15 minutes of moderate intensity exercise. Why isn't that an option?

And he adds insult to injury by using inaccurate math.

Why is it everyone else finds this useful, and everyone else at bodybuilding.com finds this useful, but you do not?

He also states you don't HAVE to do increased activity. He doesn't say you can't do it. You're being very petty.

Anything is an "option" but you're just being ridiculous.

He directly states "Improper calculations of food intake are the cause" and "at this point its time to reevaluate what you are eating" and "If weight is not coming off, you are eating too much" and "You would eat a target caloric intake, and then based on your results, add or take away food to decrease or expedite weight loss" and then talks about people needing to feel hungry.

I don't know why people find it useful. I would guess anyone who has been here long enough just ignored it or found it amusing. I only posted in this thread initially because of the hilarity of someone talking about how we just need to do basic math and then himself failing at basic math.

No you're just extremely petty and childish, that's why you posted in the thread. People always BLAME a plateau, look at the responses in this thread apart from yours. You're being a clown.

Reasons such as your body has adjusted so that what was working is no longer working? This topic has been discussed endlessly on MFP. First, there are many people who do not track accurately and don't lose any weight. Typically, these are newbies who have yet to purchase a food scale, or who believe that weekends don't need to be counted. Second, fat loss is not linear. There are many people on MFP who experiences stalls and whooshes. It's quite common. Third, after a period of doing the same thing for several months and having consistent success, for some people there comes a time when the TDEE lowers. To suggest that every single person who ever stalled out is either having a "lack of control over caloric intake" or a "medical reason" is to oversimplify the biology of fat loss, especially for someone who is/was obese. Some people never stall; others do.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/797688-experience-with-the-whoosh


I also agree with TAsunder about "people needing to feel hungry." Maybe if you are trying to get into single digits for a competition or what have you, but the average person has no need to feel hungry on a regular basis, all day. If you are hungry, eat some food, eat more satiating food, make different choices, but don't sit around hungry just because you are trimming the excess fat. That's disordered eating, imo.

Personally, I found the link to be a typical bodybuilding forum thread. It may make sense to a male who is trying to get their BF% from the teens to single digits, but that's the audience for the thread link in the OP, not "General Diet and Weight Loss Help" where any number of factors might come into play.

strick1982

[/quote]
"People always BLAME a plateau, look at the responses in this thread apart from yours".
[/quote]

Now, now Ritchiebulk. People don't always blame a plateau. At least this one doesn't. Something is not working for me and I'm trying to figure it out. It's difficult for me as I have medical dietary limitations which I'm finding difficult to work with and still consume the calories I need. I'm pretty confident it's not my exercise schedule/routine so it's got to be the diet. I won't even go and blame my medical conditions nor my meds. If I have to work harder to gain control than I shall. In my case, it doesn't help reading some of these posts on here as it typically does nothing more than confuse me and piss me off.

I have found your posts to be informative and on the up and up with no non-sense though. Thanks.

norcal_yogi

bump...

norcal_yogi

If you're on a plateau, it's just gluten.

Nah, bro, starvation mode. You just need to eat more...

lol

wild_wild_life

Meh. Just because someone posts something on a bodybuilding.com forum doesn't make it true. Would anyone argue that a woman with a TDEE of 2000 cals, who eats 1200 cals daily for a period of time and stalls, has really lowered their TDEE to 1200?

There are medical conditions, and then there are shades of grey in physiology that don't qualify as "conditions" but which can affect us nonetheless. The body is a pretty complicated machine.

TAsunder

Reasons such as your body has adjusted so that what was working is no longer working? This topic has been discussed endlessly on MFP. First, there are many people who do not track accurately and don't lose any weight. Typically, these are newbies who have yet to purchase a food scale, or who believe that weekends don't need to be counted. Second, fat loss is not linear. There are many people on MFP who experiences stalls and whooshes. It's quite common. Third, after a period of doing the same thing for several months and having consistent success, for some people there comes a time when the TDEE lowers. To suggest that every single person who ever stalled out is either having a "lack of control over caloric intake" or a "medical reason" is to oversimplify the biology of fat loss, especially for someone who is/was obese. Some people never stall; others do.

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/fat-loss/of-whooshes-and-squishy-fat.html

http://www.myfitnesspal.com/topics/show/797688-experience-with-the-whoosh


I also agree with TAsunder about "people needing to feel hungry." Maybe if you are trying to get into single digits for a competition or what have you, but the average person has no need to feel hungry on a regular basis, all day. If you are hungry, eat some food, eat more satiating food, make different choices, but don't sit around hungry just because you are trimming the excess fat. That's disordered eating, imo.

Personally, I found the link to be a typical bodybuilding forum thread. It may make sense to a male who is trying to get their BF% from the teens to single digits, but that's the audience for the thread link in the OP, not "General Diet and Weight Loss Help" where any number of factors might come into play.

I am sure many people do feel hungry constantly or regularly and still succeed. I can't succeed that way and I'm sure there are tons of other people who can't succeed that way either. I would guess that most of us with food and weight issues will not succeed if they have to "tough it out" and be hungry several hours a day. That's why I exercise intensely, drink lots of water, and eat filling foods. When I'm actually succeeding, it's because I am eliminating my pangs of hunger, not powering through them. The only real exception to that is later in the day if I've not brought enough for lunch. Then I sometimes feel hungry for about an hour until I get home and have a light snack.

yusineddy

Bump

__Di__

Thank you - this is refreshing. I get tired of seeing people say "if you've plateaued you should eat more food" - he's right, a plateau is because your maintenance adjusts as you lose weight and you need to adjust with it.

You mean other people lose weight when they eat less too? I thought it was just me!

Has anyone also found the opposite is true? If you eat more, you gain weight?

No, it is how my weightloss works too and if I eat more, guess what... I gain weight

Lyadeia

I disagree about the point where if you haven't lost weight in 3 weeks you need to look at what you're doing, honestly. For women it's not as simple, heck I've had 3 weeks 'plateaus' every month for 4 months.

Pretty sure you didn't read it very well, then.

Did you read the first three words? "Medical issues aside" I'm new around here, but it seems like there are a lot more women than men talking about plateaus on the message boards. You know those female hormones fluxations you guys love to say you don't understand and even make fun of? They are medical issues. Men = sperm, women = everything else. Is that always the culprit? Absolutely not! But considering all the pcos talk, etc, it would be wise not to jump quite so quickly to simply input vs output. You don't lose your ability to make sperm and procreate when you exercise at elite levels and/or take in too few calories, so it's probably best not to tell us how our bodies work just like yours.

Men can suffer from hormonal imbalance as well. Further, as has been stated over and over again and ignored over and over again by people who would rather argue than read, certain medical conditions call for a very low carb diet. Don't try to make this about sexual politics, because that's a pretty cheap trick and, like, so 2002.

Nobody said figuring out your actual tdee (not your estimated tdee according to averages) won't take experimentation. But if you do eat below your tdee, you will lose weight. If you don't eat above your ACTUAL expenditure, it's impossible to gain, because hormones can't make something out of nothing. Does this mean a medical condition won't be alleviated with a special diet? No. Again: no. Sorry if that is a disappointment you'd rather ignore for the sake of having a good ole conflict, but no.

Paraphrasing:

Her: I think it's a little more complicated for women.
Him: Impossible. You just don't understand tdee.

Then you went on to explain to me how it all works. Thanks for that. Your explanation was, like, so 2002 all over again, yet the time stamp clearly reads 2013.

You're right that "If you don't eat above your ACTUAL expenditure, it's impossible to gain, because hormones can't make something out of nothing." Yes, but gaining is not the topic of this thread, PLATEAUS are. Again, it's not that we don't understand tdee, just as she said, "For women it's not as simple" to find. I personally don't have this problem, at least not yet. Using the average has worked for me so far and seems to work for the majority of people, but I think that if a women (or man) who has been having success suddenly stops having success (a plateau) we should give them the benefit of the doubt before launching into an elementary explanation of tdee.

Most of the guys here are not so quick to judge, but the loud ones are. Quite honestly I totally get where it comes from, and I find it frustrating, too. There are a frighteningly large number of people posting who need strangers to point out they haven't eaten a single fruit or veggie for weeks. I just think it's easy to get caught up and forget there are people who genuinely facing these issues and they're not all idiots.

I was quite annoyed at the implication that I misunderstand TDEE because as a female, I have hormonal surges once a month that muck up the works.

For me, ever since March I have been eating 1800 calories which is my TDEE-15%. Every other month (this is genetic in my family) my female hormonal changes are quite drastic and cause water retention and other fun stuff that lasts 3 weeks out of the month. Therefore, I might be losing fat, but don't really know it or can't see it because I'm all puffy as hell and the scale either doesn't budge or goes up. To some, this might look like a plateau. To the OP, I might have to eat less because I am doing things wrong. But, if I wait for this month to be over, then in week 5 or 6 I will see my weight and body fat drastically drop within a day or 2 when the hormones return to "normal." What if I changed things during those 3 weeks? I'd never know what I could have lost before. Thank God I haven't changed things up this year.

And according to my doctor, both OB/GYN and family doctor, this is not a "medical condition." This just happens to be NORMAL.

But according to the more outspoken males, I just simply can't calculate TDEE correctly, even though according to Lyle McDonald, it is best if women compare their progress looking at corresponding weeks in their monthly cycle. Thank God not all men are as outspoken and condescending about the issue as others.

Lyadeia

But when we are not speaking of the normal female monthly cycle which doctors don't consider "medical issues" unless something is truly wrong, the article rings true. :flowerforyou:

pcastagner

I disagree about the point where if you haven't lost weight in 3 weeks you need to look at what you're doing, honestly. For women it's not as simple, heck I've had 3 weeks 'plateaus' every month for 4 months.

Pretty sure you didn't read it very well, then.

Did you read the first three words? "Medical issues aside" I'm new around here, but it seems like there are a lot more women than men talking about plateaus on the message boards. You know those female hormones fluxations you guys love to say you don't understand and even make fun of? They are medical issues. Men = sperm, women = everything else. Is that always the culprit? Absolutely not! But considering all the pcos talk, etc, it would be wise not to jump quite so quickly to simply input vs output. You don't lose your ability to make sperm and procreate when you exercise at elite levels and/or take in too few calories, so it's probably best not to tell us how our bodies work just like yours.

Men can suffer from hormonal imbalance as well. Further, as has been stated over and over again and ignored over and over again by people who would rather argue than read, certain medical conditions call for a very low carb diet. Don't try to make this about sexual politics, because that's a pretty cheap trick and, like, so 2002.

Nobody said figuring out your actual tdee (not your estimated tdee according to averages) won't take experimentation. But if you do eat below your tdee, you will lose weight. If you don't eat above your ACTUAL expenditure, it's impossible to gain, because hormones can't make something out of nothing. Does this mean a medical condition won't be alleviated with a special diet? No. Again: no. Sorry if that is a disappointment you'd rather ignore for the sake of having a good ole conflict, but no.

Paraphrasing:

Her: I think it's a little more complicated for women.
Him: Impossible. You just don't understand tdee.

Then you went on to explain to me how it all works. Thanks for that. Your explanation was, like, so 2002 all over again, yet the time stamp clearly reads 2013.

You're right that "If you don't eat above your ACTUAL expenditure, it's impossible to gain, because hormones can't make something out of nothing." Yes, but gaining is not the topic of this thread, PLATEAUS are. Again, it's not that we don't understand tdee, just as she said, "For women it's not as simple" to find. I personally don't have this problem, at least not yet. Using the average has worked for me so far and seems to work for the majority of people, but I think that if a women (or man) who has been having success suddenly stops having success (a plateau) we should give them the benefit of the doubt before launching into an elementary explanation of tdee.

Most of the guys here are not so quick to judge, but the loud ones are. Quite honestly I totally get where it comes from, and I find it frustrating, too. There are a frighteningly large number of people posting who need strangers to point out they haven't eaten a single fruit or veggie for weeks. I just think it's easy to get caught up and forget there are people who genuinely facing these issues and they're not all idiots.

I was quite annoyed at the implication that I misunderstand TDEE because as a female, I have hormonal surges once a month that muck up the works.

For me, ever since March I have been eating 1800 calories which is my TDEE-15%. Every other month (this is genetic in my family) my female hormonal changes are quite drastic and cause water retention and other fun stuff that lasts 3 weeks out of the month. Therefore, I might be losing fat, but don't really know it or can't see it because I'm all puffy as hell and the scale either doesn't budge or goes up. To some, this might look like a plateau. To the OP, I might have to eat less because I am doing things wrong. But, if I wait for this month to be over, then in week 5 or 6 I will see my weight and body fat drastically drop within a day or 2 when the hormones return to "normal." What if I changed things during those 3 weeks? I'd never know what I could have lost before. Thank God I haven't changed things up this year.

And according to my doctor, both OB/GYN and family doctor, this is not a "medical condition." This just happens to be NORMAL.

But according to the more outspoken males, I just simply can't calculate TDEE correctly, even though according to Lyle McDonald, it is best if women compare their progress looking at corresponding weeks in their monthly cycle. Thank God not all men are as outspoken and condescending about the issue as others.

Nice job describing MY weight loss pattern to a tee, and dismissing how much effort it takes, then adding another layer of sexual politics to make the conversation even less productive.

News flash: your doctor patronizing you because you are whining.

Lyadeia

Nice job describing MY weight loss pattern to a tee, and dismissing how much effort it takes, then adding another layer of sexual politics to make the conversation even less productive.

News flash: your doctor patronizing you because you are whining.

You obviously missed the point.

pcastagner

Nice job describing MY weight loss pattern to a tee, and dismissing how much effort it takes, then adding another layer of sexual politics to make the conversation even less productive.

News flash: your doctor patronizing you because you are whining.

You obviously missed the point.

Do you find yourself saying this to people a lot?

Because it's generally a mistake to assume people must have "obviously missed the point" just because they point out you are wrong.

How can it be that you are so different when our weight loss follows the same pattern? It's totally normal. As in, yr weight loss, as you described it, follows a normal pattern. Can it be you are so into dramatizing your personal struggles that you can't conceive of others succeeding unless their own struggles are easier?

So sick of being told it's easier for men. I work my *kitten* off for this. Also very sick of women not understanding that men have hormonal fluctuations that affect our moods, weight, and behavior.

It really sucks that you grew up in a dying patriarchy and I feel for you, but it's not the ONLY struggle in life, and in any case it hurts everyone who isn't at the top, not just women.


Guess what? Being on a calorie deficit to get my body fat down to where I want it for work messes with my hormones, in and of itself. With lowered testosterone, I am not the same me. I also experience more or less monthly hormone fluctuations. Go read up a bit on some sources other than the ones you use for confirmation bias and you might learn something about our common humanity and no longer feel the need to divide everyone into relevant and irrelevant groups.

Violetta86

Thanks for the link...it verified exactly what I thought unfortunately lol...

Scotland_forever

bump

Lyadeia

Nice job describing MY weight loss pattern to a tee, and dismissing how much effort it takes, then adding another layer of sexual politics to make the conversation even less productive.

News flash: your doctor patronizing you because you are whining.

You obviously missed the point.

Do you find yourself saying this to people a lot?

Because it's generally a mistake to assume people must have "obviously missed the point" just because they point out you are wrong.

How can it be that you are so different when our weight loss follows the same pattern? It's totally normal. As in, yr weight loss, as you described it, follows a normal pattern. Can it be you are so into dramatizing your personal struggles that you can't conceive of others succeeding unless their own struggles are easier?

So sick of being told it's easier for men. I work my *kitten* off for this. Also very sick of women not understanding that men have hormonal fluctuations that affect our moods, weight, and behavior.

It really sucks that you grew up in a dying patriarchy and I feel for you, but it's not the ONLY struggle in life, and in any case it hurts everyone, not just women.

You are confusing my FAT loss with my WEIGHT loss. They are not on the same pattern and that is due to hormone fluctations of hormones you don't have in anywhere near the same amounts.

Please tell me again how your progesterone and estrogen levels bounce around throughout the month causing weight changes that are different from your fat changes. Not saying your pattern is linear in both respects, but the root cause is obviously different.

Unless you are a woman posing as a man behind that little screen of narrow vision.

pcastagner

Nice job describing MY weight loss pattern to a tee, and dismissing how much effort it takes, then adding another layer of sexual politics to make the conversation even less productive.

News flash: your doctor patronizing you because you are whining.

You obviously missed the point.

Do you find yourself saying this to people a lot?

Because it's generally a mistake to assume people must have "obviously missed the point" just because they point out you are wrong.

How can it be that you are so different when our weight loss follows the same pattern? It's totally normal. As in, yr weight loss, as you described it, follows a normal pattern. Can it be you are so into dramatizing your personal struggles that you can't conceive of others succeeding unless their own struggles are easier?

So sick of being told it's easier for men. I work my *kitten* off for this. Also very sick of women not understanding that men have hormonal fluctuations that affect our moods, weight, and behavior.

It really sucks that you grew up in a dying patriarchy and I feel for you, but it's not the ONLY struggle in life, and in any case it hurts everyone, not just women.

You are confusing my FAT loss with my WEIGHT loss. They are not on the same pattern and that is due to hormone fluctations of hormones you don't have in anywhere near the same amounts.

Please tell me again how your progesterone and estrogen levels bounce around throughout the month causing weight changes that are different from your fat changes. Not saying your pattern is linear in both respects, but the root cause is obviously different.

Unless you are a woman posing as a man behind that little screen of narrow vision.

As someone who measures skin folds every day, I am the last one to confuse fat loss with weight loss. When I see the scale go down and the fat stay the same, I get upset about the muscle loss and I realize this comes down to hormonal fluctuation. Only in my case it's a lot harder to nail down WHY I experienced low testosterone. The signs are there though. Irritability, decreased libido (or none at all), muscle loss and fat gain, lassitude, and sometimes depression. A simple comment can trigger dramatic changes in my hormonal balance.


The problem is, you haven't actually researched this. Yes I do have hormone fluctuations, as a man. Sorry to burst your bubble. Look it up. Further, some men are more stable than others, and some women are more stable than others, and all this occurs on a spectrum. Which means that some women are more stable than some men. As a man, my hormonal fluctuations are also much more affected by circumstance. If I am elevated to a leadership position, the balance changes. If I am demoted to a low social status, the balance changes again.

I fully support feminism and the dismantling of the patriarchy. I don't support establishing a new, highly regimented and segregated view of humanity based on a one sided and incomplete view of human biology.


Big difference between actual science and your pop science. Man or woman, this is hard. Man or woman, we are all cut from the same cloth and more alike than different. It's up to you whether you choose to focus on what makes us the same or what makes us different, and I would suggest it comes down to your motivations.

beachgirl172723

So true. Thanks. Exactly what I needed to hear about hunger.