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How long can society sustain its growing population?

135

Replies

  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels. The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."

    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment. When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.

    That’s one of the best parodies I’ve ever read. First class. And amusing too

    I'm sorry you misunderstood... I'm 100% serious.

    OK, I'll take you seriously for just a second.

    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels.
    1. Where's the evidence that humanity is the cause of this change
    2. Where is the evidence that it's irreversible
    The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."
    3. What specifically should we do to slow the demise?
    4. How do you know it will work?
    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment.
    Arrogance and eugenics is wrong regardless of whether or not there is a racialist motivation.
    When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.
    What specific resources are running out? and when will they run out?
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels. The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."

    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment. When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.

    That’s one of the best parodies I’ve ever read. First class. And amusing too

    I'm sorry you misunderstood... I'm 100% serious.

    OK, I'll take you seriously for just a second.

    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels.
    1. Where's the evidence that humanity is the cause of this change
    2. Where is the evidence that it's irreversible
    The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."
    3. What specifically should we do to slow the demise?
    4. How do you know it will work?
    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment.
    Arrogance and eugenics is wrong regardless of whether or not there is a racialist motivation.
    When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.
    What specific resources are running out? and when will they run out?

    I'm not going to do all your work for you, but here is a summary:

    1. Decades of scientific research has shown that humans have directly caused climate change. NASA was first looking into this in the '80s. I'm not going to list all of the research, and it can be very easily found.
    2. Once again, lots of research shows this. The threshold for being able to reverse climate change was 400 ppm carbon levels, which was surpassed years ago.
    3. As explained, specifically, we should stop producing more people.
    4. There was an interesting research study that showed how much effect various choices have. Every other choice - driving a hybrid, using energy efficient appliances, recycling, etc. - was far less effective than having 1 fewer child.

    What I'm suggesting, by definition (dictionary.com), is not eugenics because I'm not interested in "improving qualities" of humans. Instead, I believe nobody should reproduce. If this happened (I acknowledge it won't), we could eventually become extinct before the planet is uninhabitable.
    the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)

    Resources being destroyed are too numerous to list. "Natural" disasters as a result of climate change are wiping out animal species and plant habitat (i.e. food sources). Rising sea levels will reduce land size. With a lot of people, very little space to plant crops and pasture livestock will further exacerbate the food shortage and availability of fresh water.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    edited May 2018
    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels. The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."

    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment. When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.

    That’s one of the best parodies I’ve ever read. First class. And amusing too

    I'm sorry you misunderstood... I'm 100% serious.

    OK, I'll take you seriously for just a second.

    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels.
    1. Where's the evidence that humanity is the cause of this change
    2. Where is the evidence that it's irreversible
    The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."
    3. What specifically should we do to slow the demise?
    4. How do you know it will work?
    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment.
    Arrogance and eugenics is wrong regardless of whether or not there is a racialist motivation.
    When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.
    What specific resources are running out? and when will they run out?

    I'm not going to do all your work for you, but here is a summary:
    Translation: I can't back up my claims.
    1. Decades of scientific research has shown that humans have directly caused climate change. NASA was first looking into this in the '80s. I'm not going to list all of the research, and it can be very easily found.
    Incorrect. The glaciers are bigger than they were in the 70s-Oh, and if you look at the last 5 years yearly numbers, they're trending back downward.

    And the history of this fear mongering goes back way past the 80s.

    I blame the internet and widespread alliteracy. I have in my library books from the 50s citing research that proved that the earth couldn't support more than 2 billion people and the end was nigh. We're at 4 times that number. And the only thing that's changed is the date. We're still 20 years out from the end of all humanity, and the top line number is bigger.
    2. Once again, lots of research shows this. The threshold for being able to reverse climate change was 400 ppm carbon levels, which was surpassed years ago.
    Hypothesized, not proven. And again. That moving target has changed half a hundred times as well.
    3. As explained, specifically, we should stop producing more people.
    4. There was an interesting research study that showed how much effect various choices have. Every other choice - driving a hybrid, using energy efficient appliances, recycling, etc. - was far less effective than having 1 fewer child.

    What I'm suggesting, by definition (dictionary.com), is not eugenics because I'm not interested in "improving qualities" of humans. Instead, I believe nobody should reproduce. If this happened (I acknowledge it won't), we could eventually become extinct before the planet is uninhabitable.
    the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)

    Resources being destroyed are too numerous to list. "Natural" disasters as a result of climate change are wiping out animal species and plant habitat (i.e. food sources). Rising sea levels will reduce land size. With a lot of people, very little space to plant crops and pasture livestock will further exacerbate the food shortage and availability of fresh water.

    Sea levels are provably not rising.

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    I've read the relevant studies, and they just don't support anything like the fear mongering you're putting out.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels. The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."

    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment. When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.

    That’s one of the best parodies I’ve ever read. First class. And amusing too

    I'm sorry you misunderstood... I'm 100% serious.

    OK, I'll take you seriously for just a second.

    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels.
    1. Where's the evidence that humanity is the cause of this change
    2. Where is the evidence that it's irreversible
    The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."
    3. What specifically should we do to slow the demise?
    4. How do you know it will work?
    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment.
    Arrogance and eugenics is wrong regardless of whether or not there is a racialist motivation.
    When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.
    What specific resources are running out? and when will they run out?

    I'm not going to do all your work for you, but here is a summary:
    Translation: I can't back up my claims.
    1. Decades of scientific research has shown that humans have directly caused climate change. NASA was first looking into this in the '80s. I'm not going to list all of the research, and it can be very easily found.
    Incorrect. The glaciers are bigger than they were in the 70s-Oh, and if you look at the last 5 years yearly numbers, they're trending back downward.

    And the history of this fear mongering goes back way past the 80s.

    I blame the internet and widespread alliteracy. I have in my library books from the 50s citing research that proved that the earth couldn't support more than 2 billion people and the end was nigh. We're at 4 times that number. And the only thing that's changed is the date. We're still 20 years out from the end of all humanity, and the top line number is bigger.
    2. Once again, lots of research shows this. The threshold for being able to reverse climate change was 400 ppm carbon levels, which was surpassed years ago.
    Hypothesized, not proven. And again. That moving target has changed half a hundred times as well.
    3. As explained, specifically, we should stop producing more people.
    4. There was an interesting research study that showed how much effect various choices have. Every other choice - driving a hybrid, using energy efficient appliances, recycling, etc. - was far less effective than having 1 fewer child.

    What I'm suggesting, by definition (dictionary.com), is not eugenics because I'm not interested in "improving qualities" of humans. Instead, I believe nobody should reproduce. If this happened (I acknowledge it won't), we could eventually become extinct before the planet is uninhabitable.
    the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)

    Resources being destroyed are too numerous to list. "Natural" disasters as a result of climate change are wiping out animal species and plant habitat (i.e. food sources). Rising sea levels will reduce land size. With a lot of people, very little space to plant crops and pasture livestock will further exacerbate the food shortage and availability of fresh water.

    Sea levels are provably not rising.

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    I've read the relevant studies, and they just don't support anything like the fear mongering you're putting out.

    Truth is that certain people (including you) have come to a conclusion and don't care what the science does or does not say. For me to list a bunch of research for you is a waste of time because you are clearly unwilling to review it from a perspective free of bias.
  • cdlee05mfp
    cdlee05mfp Posts: 1,139 Member
    Thanos already took care of it. just glad i made the cut.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels. The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."

    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment. When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.

    That’s one of the best parodies I’ve ever read. First class. And amusing too

    I'm sorry you misunderstood... I'm 100% serious.

    OK, I'll take you seriously for just a second.

    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels.
    1. Where's the evidence that humanity is the cause of this change
    2. Where is the evidence that it's irreversible
    The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."
    3. What specifically should we do to slow the demise?
    4. How do you know it will work?
    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment.
    Arrogance and eugenics is wrong regardless of whether or not there is a racialist motivation.
    When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.
    What specific resources are running out? and when will they run out?

    I'm not going to do all your work for you, but here is a summary:
    Translation: I can't back up my claims.
    1. Decades of scientific research has shown that humans have directly caused climate change. NASA was first looking into this in the '80s. I'm not going to list all of the research, and it can be very easily found.
    Incorrect. The glaciers are bigger than they were in the 70s-Oh, and if you look at the last 5 years yearly numbers, they're trending back downward.

    And the history of this fear mongering goes back way past the 80s.

    I blame the internet and widespread alliteracy. I have in my library books from the 50s citing research that proved that the earth couldn't support more than 2 billion people and the end was nigh. We're at 4 times that number. And the only thing that's changed is the date. We're still 20 years out from the end of all humanity, and the top line number is bigger.
    2. Once again, lots of research shows this. The threshold for being able to reverse climate change was 400 ppm carbon levels, which was surpassed years ago.
    Hypothesized, not proven. And again. That moving target has changed half a hundred times as well.
    3. As explained, specifically, we should stop producing more people.
    4. There was an interesting research study that showed how much effect various choices have. Every other choice - driving a hybrid, using energy efficient appliances, recycling, etc. - was far less effective than having 1 fewer child.

    What I'm suggesting, by definition (dictionary.com), is not eugenics because I'm not interested in "improving qualities" of humans. Instead, I believe nobody should reproduce. If this happened (I acknowledge it won't), we could eventually become extinct before the planet is uninhabitable.
    the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)

    Resources being destroyed are too numerous to list. "Natural" disasters as a result of climate change are wiping out animal species and plant habitat (i.e. food sources). Rising sea levels will reduce land size. With a lot of people, very little space to plant crops and pasture livestock will further exacerbate the food shortage and availability of fresh water.

    Sea levels are provably not rising.

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    I've read the relevant studies, and they just don't support anything like the fear mongering you're putting out.

    Truth is that certain people (including you) have come to a conclusion and don't care what the science does or does not say. For me to list a bunch of research for you is a waste of time because you are clearly unwilling to review it from a perspective free of bias.

    Right back at you.

    You've made up your mind and evidence be *kitten*.

    I've studied the research and claims, talked to experts. Reviewed the projections, and come to a conclusion.

    You've come up with a conclusion, cherry picked evidence, and accepted the word of "experts" who refine the conclusion every 5 years or so when TEOTWAWKI fails to show up on time.

    So if you've got something useful or new, present it, and we'll take a look.
  • T1DCarnivoreRunner
    T1DCarnivoreRunner Posts: 11,502 Member
    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels. The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."

    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment. When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.

    That’s one of the best parodies I’ve ever read. First class. And amusing too

    I'm sorry you misunderstood... I'm 100% serious.

    OK, I'll take you seriously for just a second.

    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels.
    1. Where's the evidence that humanity is the cause of this change
    2. Where is the evidence that it's irreversible
    The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."
    3. What specifically should we do to slow the demise?
    4. How do you know it will work?
    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment.
    Arrogance and eugenics is wrong regardless of whether or not there is a racialist motivation.
    When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.
    What specific resources are running out? and when will they run out?

    I'm not going to do all your work for you, but here is a summary:
    Translation: I can't back up my claims.
    1. Decades of scientific research has shown that humans have directly caused climate change. NASA was first looking into this in the '80s. I'm not going to list all of the research, and it can be very easily found.
    Incorrect. The glaciers are bigger than they were in the 70s-Oh, and if you look at the last 5 years yearly numbers, they're trending back downward.

    And the history of this fear mongering goes back way past the 80s.

    I blame the internet and widespread alliteracy. I have in my library books from the 50s citing research that proved that the earth couldn't support more than 2 billion people and the end was nigh. We're at 4 times that number. And the only thing that's changed is the date. We're still 20 years out from the end of all humanity, and the top line number is bigger.
    2. Once again, lots of research shows this. The threshold for being able to reverse climate change was 400 ppm carbon levels, which was surpassed years ago.
    Hypothesized, not proven. And again. That moving target has changed half a hundred times as well.
    3. As explained, specifically, we should stop producing more people.
    4. There was an interesting research study that showed how much effect various choices have. Every other choice - driving a hybrid, using energy efficient appliances, recycling, etc. - was far less effective than having 1 fewer child.

    What I'm suggesting, by definition (dictionary.com), is not eugenics because I'm not interested in "improving qualities" of humans. Instead, I believe nobody should reproduce. If this happened (I acknowledge it won't), we could eventually become extinct before the planet is uninhabitable.
    the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)

    Resources being destroyed are too numerous to list. "Natural" disasters as a result of climate change are wiping out animal species and plant habitat (i.e. food sources). Rising sea levels will reduce land size. With a lot of people, very little space to plant crops and pasture livestock will further exacerbate the food shortage and availability of fresh water.

    Sea levels are provably not rising.

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    I've read the relevant studies, and they just don't support anything like the fear mongering you're putting out.

    Truth is that certain people (including you) have come to a conclusion and don't care what the science does or does not say. For me to list a bunch of research for you is a waste of time because you are clearly unwilling to review it from a perspective free of bias.

    Right back at you.

    You've made up your mind and evidence be *kitten*.

    I've studied the research and claims, talked to experts. Reviewed the projections, and come to a conclusion.

    You've come up with a conclusion, cherry picked evidence, and accepted the word of "experts" who refine the conclusion every 5 years or so when TEOTWAWKI fails to show up on time.

    So if you've got something useful or new, present it, and we'll take a look.

    I'll repeat since you didn't get the message:
    For me to list a bunch of research for you is a waste of time because you are clearly unwilling to review it from a perspective free of bias.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels. The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."

    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment. When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.

    That’s one of the best parodies I’ve ever read. First class. And amusing too

    I'm sorry you misunderstood... I'm 100% serious.

    OK, I'll take you seriously for just a second.

    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels.
    1. Where's the evidence that humanity is the cause of this change
    2. Where is the evidence that it's irreversible
    The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."
    3. What specifically should we do to slow the demise?
    4. How do you know it will work?
    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment.
    Arrogance and eugenics is wrong regardless of whether or not there is a racialist motivation.
    When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.
    What specific resources are running out? and when will they run out?

    I'm not going to do all your work for you, but here is a summary:
    Translation: I can't back up my claims.
    1. Decades of scientific research has shown that humans have directly caused climate change. NASA was first looking into this in the '80s. I'm not going to list all of the research, and it can be very easily found.
    Incorrect. The glaciers are bigger than they were in the 70s-Oh, and if you look at the last 5 years yearly numbers, they're trending back downward.

    And the history of this fear mongering goes back way past the 80s.

    I blame the internet and widespread alliteracy. I have in my library books from the 50s citing research that proved that the earth couldn't support more than 2 billion people and the end was nigh. We're at 4 times that number. And the only thing that's changed is the date. We're still 20 years out from the end of all humanity, and the top line number is bigger.
    2. Once again, lots of research shows this. The threshold for being able to reverse climate change was 400 ppm carbon levels, which was surpassed years ago.
    Hypothesized, not proven. And again. That moving target has changed half a hundred times as well.
    3. As explained, specifically, we should stop producing more people.
    4. There was an interesting research study that showed how much effect various choices have. Every other choice - driving a hybrid, using energy efficient appliances, recycling, etc. - was far less effective than having 1 fewer child.

    What I'm suggesting, by definition (dictionary.com), is not eugenics because I'm not interested in "improving qualities" of humans. Instead, I believe nobody should reproduce. If this happened (I acknowledge it won't), we could eventually become extinct before the planet is uninhabitable.
    the study of or belief in the possibility of improving the qualities of the human species or a human population, especially by such means as discouraging reproduction by persons having genetic defects or presumed to have inheritable undesirable traits (negative eugenics) or encouraging reproduction by persons presumed to have inheritable desirable traits (positive eugenics)

    Resources being destroyed are too numerous to list. "Natural" disasters as a result of climate change are wiping out animal species and plant habitat (i.e. food sources). Rising sea levels will reduce land size. With a lot of people, very little space to plant crops and pasture livestock will further exacerbate the food shortage and availability of fresh water.

    Sea levels are provably not rising.

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    I've read the relevant studies, and they just don't support anything like the fear mongering you're putting out.

    Truth is that certain people (including you) have come to a conclusion and don't care what the science does or does not say. For me to list a bunch of research for you is a waste of time because you are clearly unwilling to review it from a perspective free of bias.

    Right back at you.

    You've made up your mind and evidence be *kitten*.

    I've studied the research and claims, talked to experts. Reviewed the projections, and come to a conclusion.

    You've come up with a conclusion, cherry picked evidence, and accepted the word of "experts" who refine the conclusion every 5 years or so when TEOTWAWKI fails to show up on time.

    So if you've got something useful or new, present it, and we'll take a look.

    I'll repeat since you didn't get the message:
    For me to list a bunch of research for you is a waste of time because you are clearly unwilling to review it from a perspective free of bias.

    I got the message: You can't support your claims so you blame me for not embracing your fearmongering.

  • Bry_Fitness70
    Bry_Fitness70 Posts: 2,480 Member
    edited May 2018

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    We may have to get creative with energy production, but Nuclear, Geothermal, Solar, and Satellite Power have some very interesting promise. Hi tech Greenhouses could be installed in the top of New build apartments, to provide produce to the tenants.

    We truly live in amazing and wondrous times.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    edited May 2018
    I'm a bit saddened by how dour people are these days about the future. Yeah, I too am concerned about climate change, about misuse of limited resources, about sacrificing the future in favor of the present. I'm not sure how much of that is all about population though. Honestly with the right mindset and application of resources the more people we have the more people we will have to get the job done.

    This idea that more people always equals worse I don't think actually pans out in reality. Sometimes more people leads to synergistic capability where the output of useful work is more than the sum. Sometimes more people is just more minds and hands to help deal with problems.

    Alternative energy sources are possible...heck they are a reality today, they just need to be implemented. The city I live in is 90%+ powered by renewable energy that has zero emissions at the same time it has explosive growth. Food production for the population is possible, in fact it really already exists its more of a supply chain/nationalism issue. Making those changes will take people and direction. I'd rather focus on getting that direction than on eliminating people. You aren't going to get people to care by talking about how much people are the problem.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    edited May 2018

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    Well to be honest we "choose" to live in cities because of supply chains. Because it is not practical to shunt electricity, water, supplies, materials etc etc all over the place. The idea that you could get all you can get in a city out in bumf*ck nowhere is a little silly as is the idea that everyone is just capable of subsistence farming wherever there is an open field. Even if you could the march of civilization is about getting past just subsiding and although perhaps you could grow enough potatos in a field in texas to survive until you are 50 you aren't going to be getting much else without a city nearby.

    I disagree with how pesimisitic a lot of people are but I also disagree with this notion that somehow empty land = resources enough to sustain our current standard of living for billions and billions of more people.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    I'm a bit saddened by how dour people are these days about the future. Yeah, I too am concerned about climate change, about misuse of limited resources, about sacrificing the future in favor of the present. I'm not sure how much of that is all about population though. Honestly with the right mindset and application of resources the more people we have the more people we will have to get the job done.

    This idea that more people always equals worse I don't think actually pans out in reality. Sometimes more people leads to synergistic capability where the output of useful work is more than the sum. Sometimes more people is just more minds and hands to help deal with problems.

    Alternative energy sources are possible...heck they are a reality today, they just need to be implemented. The city I live in is 90%+ powered by renewable energy that has zero emissions at the same time it has explosive growth. Food production for the population is possible, in fact it really already exists its more of a supply chain/nationalism issue. Making those changes will take people and direction. I'd rather focus on getting that direction than on eliminating people. You aren't going to get people to care by talking about how much people are the problem.

    I agree that there are things that we should be mindful of and even a few that may be concerning, But I'm 43 this year, and I've outlived TEOTWAWKI 6 or 8 times already. So I'm vigorously skeptical of gloom and doom predictions that are retreads of those I've seen already. I'm certainly open to considering possibilities and risk management, but the "OMG, we've got to cut population by 1/2-2/3-Back to 1920" doom and gloom is exhausting and I'd rather chase possibilities and opportunities.

    Aaron is more likely to be bankrupt and homeless due to municipal mismanagement and a financial crisis in Seattle than my grandchildren are to worry about overpopulation and rising sea levels.

    Sorry Aaron.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    I'm a bit saddened by how dour people are these days about the future. Yeah, I too am concerned about climate change, about misuse of limited resources, about sacrificing the future in favor of the present. I'm not sure how much of that is all about population though. Honestly with the right mindset and application of resources the more people we have the more people we will have to get the job done.

    This idea that more people always equals worse I don't think actually pans out in reality. Sometimes more people leads to synergistic capability where the output of useful work is more than the sum. Sometimes more people is just more minds and hands to help deal with problems.

    Alternative energy sources are possible...heck they are a reality today, they just need to be implemented. The city I live in is 90%+ powered by renewable energy that has zero emissions at the same time it has explosive growth. Food production for the population is possible, in fact it really already exists its more of a supply chain/nationalism issue. Making those changes will take people and direction. I'd rather focus on getting that direction than on eliminating people. You aren't going to get people to care by talking about how much people are the problem.

    I agree that there are things that we should be mindful of and even a few that may be concerning, But I'm 43 this year, and I've outlived TEOTWAWKI 6 or 8 times already. So I'm vigorously skeptical of gloom and doom predictions that are retreads of those I've seen already. I'm certainly open to considering possibilities and risk management, but the "OMG, we've got to cut population by 1/2-2/3-Back to 1920" doom and gloom is exhausting and I'd rather chase possibilities and opportunities.

    Aaron is more likely to be bankrupt and homeless due to municipal mismanagement and a financial crisis in Seattle than my grandchildren are to worry about overpopulation and rising sea levels.

    Sorry Aaron.

    Hah...guess its potato subsistance farming for me....better go stake my claim in that rich Texas soil.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    We may have to get creative with energy production, but Nuclear, Geothermal, Solar, and Satellite Power have some very interesting promise. Hi tech Greenhouses could be installed in the top of New build apartments, to provide produce to the tenants.

    We truly live in amazing and wondrous times.

    ...satellite power?
  • Bry_Fitness70
    Bry_Fitness70 Posts: 2,480 Member
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    Well to be honest we "choose" to live in cities because of supply chains. Because it is not practical to shunt electricity, water, supplies, materials etc etc all over the place. The idea that you could get all you can get in a city out in bumf*ck nowhere is a little silly as is the idea that everyone is just capable of subsistence farming wherever there is an open field.

    Nonsense. The entirety of the US was "bumf*ck nowhere" a few hundred years ago, and now hundreds of millions of people live in areas where there was zero infrastructure originally.

    Florida was mostly a useless swamp and Arizona was an uninhabitable desert at the beginning of the 20th century - air conditioning was invented and now almost 30 million people live in those states, and real estate is at a premium. Las Vegas was a place with no existing water supply and yet built an infrastructure that will accommodate 40 million tourists this year. Almost any place in the world (within reason) can be developed into a thriving living area with sustainable resources if people have the vision to develop it.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    We may have to get creative with energy production, but Nuclear, Geothermal, Solar, and Satellite Power have some very interesting promise. Hi tech Greenhouses could be installed in the top of New build apartments, to provide produce to the tenants.

    We truly live in amazing and wondrous times.

    ...satellite power?

    Still theoretical, but wireless transmission from solar collectors or other geosync generators. Still mostly the realm of Sci-Fi, but interesting in theory. Most likely will never be viable, but some of the applications on a larger and smaller scale are promising, some would require major tech overhauls,
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    edited May 2018
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    Well to be honest we "choose" to live in cities because of supply chains. Because it is not practical to shunt electricity, water, supplies, materials etc etc all over the place. The idea that you could get all you can get in a city out in bumf*ck nowhere is a little silly as is the idea that everyone is just capable of subsistence farming wherever there is an open field.

    Nonsense. The entirety of the US was "bumf*ck nowhere" a few hundred years ago, and now hundreds of millions of people live in areas where there was zero infrastructure originally.

    Florida was mostly a useless swamp and Arizona was an uninhabitable desert at the beginning of the 20th century - air conditioning was invented and now almost 30 million people live in those states, and real estate is at a premium. Las Vegas was a place with no existing water supply and yet built an infrastructure that will accommodate 40 million tourists this year. Almost any place in the world (within reason) can be developed into a thriving living area with sustainable resources if people have the vision to develop it.

    You are acting like people who live in a certain area are supported by only that area....they aren't. The population of New York city is 8.2 million people and they live in ~450 sq miles of land....but they aren't supported by only 450 sq miles of land. NYC didn't become a mega-city because the land they live on is really good at growing potatoes, it is because it was a hub for the transport of resources from elsewhere...other land.

    Even people who live in a 1 acre plot don't receive all of their resources from that 1 acre...they are supported by much more land than that.

    Pointing to a bunch of empty land relative to populated land and acting like that empty land would support more people based on how much land people currently physically occupy is not realistic at all.

    A few hundred years ago the population of the United States was a lot smaller than it is today. We may live in densely populated zones but we certainly use a lot more land than we did back then.

    We "live on top of eachother" again because it is extremely inefficient to ship goods long distances when instead you can ship them to a single location that can then distribute to a large number of people. That should be pretty obvious. Spreading everyone out would require a LOT more energy usage.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    edited May 2018
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    We may have to get creative with energy production, but Nuclear, Geothermal, Solar, and Satellite Power have some very interesting promise. Hi tech Greenhouses could be installed in the top of New build apartments, to provide produce to the tenants.

    We truly live in amazing and wondrous times.

    ...satellite power?

    Still theoretical, but wireless transmission from solar collectors or other geosync generators. Still mostly the realm of Sci-Fi, but interesting in theory. Most likely will never be viable, but some of the applications on a larger and smaller scale are promising, some would require major tech overhauls,

    Uh why not just have the solar collectors on land...seems easier. I'm not convinced all this "empty land" represents tons more room for population growth...but it seems a decent place to put a solar farm.

    Yeah I get there aren't clouds to get in the way in space...but launching something into orbit is a pretty high initial cost to wait on your ROI from avoiding some clouds.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    We may have to get creative with energy production, but Nuclear, Geothermal, Solar, and Satellite Power have some very interesting promise. Hi tech Greenhouses could be installed in the top of New build apartments, to provide produce to the tenants.

    We truly live in amazing and wondrous times.

    ...satellite power?

    Still theoretical, but wireless transmission from solar collectors or other geosync generators. Still mostly the realm of Sci-Fi, but interesting in theory. Most likely will never be viable, but some of the applications on a larger and smaller scale are promising, some would require major tech overhauls,

    Uh why not just have the solar collectors on land...seems easier. I'm not convinced all this "empty land" represents tons more room for population growth...but it seems a decent place to put a solar farm.

    Yeah I get there aren't clouds to get in the way in space...but launching something into orbit is a pretty high initial cost to wait on your ROI from avoiding some clouds.

    No argument, that's why I said probably not viable at least not for solar.
  • MeanderingMammal
    MeanderingMammal Posts: 7,866 Member
    edited May 2018
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    We may have to get creative with energy production, but Nuclear, Geothermal, Solar, and Satellite Power have some very interesting promise. Hi tech Greenhouses could be installed in the top of New build apartments, to provide produce to the tenants.

    We truly live in amazing and wondrous times.

    ...satellite power?

    Still theoretical, but wireless transmission from solar collectors or other geosync generators. Still mostly the realm of Sci-Fi, but interesting in theory. Most likely will never be viable, but some of the applications on a larger and smaller scale are promising, some would require major tech overhauls,

    Uh why not just have the solar collectors on land...seems easier. I'm not convinced all this "empty land" represents tons more room for population growth...but it seems a decent place to put a solar farm.

    In principle, you'll get higher gain from the collection array being exposed to the source without atmospheric loss. By concentrating the downlink then atmospheric effects are minimised. By controlling the landing point then distribution loss is reduced.

    At the moment, launch costs and the challenges of maintaining an orbit become the obstacle. Low earth needs a lot of active flight control, geosynchronous increases the lossiness significantly.

    You could, in principle, provide global electricity needs from a small patch of the Sahara. You'd have depleted most of that getting it to the Libyan coast.
  • ccrdragon
    ccrdragon Posts: 3,374 Member
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    We may have to get creative with energy production, but Nuclear, Geothermal, Solar, and Satellite Power have some very interesting promise. Hi tech Greenhouses could be installed in the top of New build apartments, to provide produce to the tenants.

    We truly live in amazing and wondrous times.

    ...satellite power?

    Still theoretical, but wireless transmission from solar collectors or other geosync generators. Still mostly the realm of Sci-Fi, but interesting in theory. Most likely will never be viable, but some of the applications on a larger and smaller scale are promising, some would require major tech overhauls,

    Uh why not just have the solar collectors on land...seems easier. I'm not convinced all this "empty land" represents tons more room for population growth...but it seems a decent place to put a solar farm.

    Yeah I get there aren't clouds to get in the way in space...but launching something into orbit is a pretty high initial cost to wait on your ROI from avoiding some clouds.

    The problem with placing the collectors on land (even in the dessert) is that with current tech, it would take an incredible amount of space to replace what we generate with other sources. You also lose a certain amount of the available energy because of the natural filtering of the sunlight thru the atmosphere.

    Placing the collectors in space gives a much more robust source to collect from - pure, unfiltered sunlight.
  • Aaron_K123
    Aaron_K123 Posts: 7,122 Member
    edited May 2018
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    We may have to get creative with energy production, but Nuclear, Geothermal, Solar, and Satellite Power have some very interesting promise. Hi tech Greenhouses could be installed in the top of New build apartments, to provide produce to the tenants.

    We truly live in amazing and wondrous times.

    ...satellite power?

    Still theoretical, but wireless transmission from solar collectors or other geosync generators. Still mostly the realm of Sci-Fi, but interesting in theory. Most likely will never be viable, but some of the applications on a larger and smaller scale are promising, some would require major tech overhauls,

    Uh why not just have the solar collectors on land...seems easier. I'm not convinced all this "empty land" represents tons more room for population growth...but it seems a decent place to put a solar farm.

    In principle, you'll get higher gain from the collection array being exposed to the source without atmospheric loss. By concentrating the downlink then atmospheric effects are minimised. By controlling the landing point then distribution loss is reduced.

    At the moment, launch costs and the challenges of maintaining an orbit become the obstacle. Low earth needs a lot of active flight control, geosynchronous increases the lossiness significantly.

    You could, in principle, provide global electricity needs from a small patch of the Sahara. You'd have depleted most of that getting it to the Libyan coast.

    Yeah and in theory I could get higher yields off my solar panels by erecting a 60 foot tall scaffold that angles the collectors due south and above any surrounding tree shade rather than put them on my roof. But I'm not going to do that because the cost of doing that would far exceed the amount of energy I would gain from having done so.

    Solar collectors are much MUCH cheaper and easier to maintain on land than in space. I mean, that is pretty evident. It is hard to imagine tech advancing to the point where it is cheaper and a quicker ROI to put panels in space than it is to just put them on land.
  • jjpptt2
    jjpptt2 Posts: 5,650 Member
    First of all, I've really enjoyed this thread so far, and have considered/thought differently about something almost every time I've read through it.

    I don't have any doubt that mankind can sustain itself in terms of housing, food, energy, etc. If backed into a corner (or presented with enough potential for profit), there isn't much we can't do/solve.

    What I worry about is more social/interpersonal. As the population continues to rise, there is (I feel) greater likelihood of conflict, be it cultural, economic, religious, etc. How will that play out? If backed into a corner, is mankind more apt to take a deep breath and find a compromise, or press the big red "Launch" button?
  • Bry_Fitness70
    Bry_Fitness70 Posts: 2,480 Member
    edited May 2018
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    Well to be honest we "choose" to live in cities because of supply chains. Because it is not practical to shunt electricity, water, supplies, materials etc etc all over the place. The idea that you could get all you can get in a city out in bumf*ck nowhere is a little silly as is the idea that everyone is just capable of subsistence farming wherever there is an open field.

    Nonsense. The entirety of the US was "bumf*ck nowhere" a few hundred years ago, and now hundreds of millions of people live in areas where there was zero infrastructure originally.

    Florida was mostly a useless swamp and Arizona was an uninhabitable desert at the beginning of the 20th century - air conditioning was invented and now almost 30 million people live in those states, and real estate is at a premium. Las Vegas was a place with no existing water supply and yet built an infrastructure that will accommodate 40 million tourists this year. Almost any place in the world (within reason) can be developed into a thriving living area with sustainable resources if people have the vision to develop it.

    You are acting like people who live in a certain area are supported by only that area....they aren't. The population of New York city is 8.2 million people and they live in ~450 sq miles of land....but they aren't supported by only 450 sq miles of land. NYC didn't become a mega-city because the land they live on is really good at growing potatoes, it is because it was a hub for the transport of resources from elsewhere...other land.

    Even people who live in a 1 acre plot don't receive all of their resources from that 1 acre...they are supported by much more land than that.

    Pointing to a bunch of empty land relative to populated land and acting like that empty land would support more people based on how much land people currently physically occupy is not realistic at all.

    A few hundred years ago the population of the United States was a lot smaller than it is today. We may live in densely populated zones but we certainly use a lot more land than we did back then.

    We "live on top of eachother" again because it is extremely inefficient to ship goods long distances when instead you can ship them to a single location that can then distribute to a large number of people. That should be pretty obvious. Spreading everyone out would require a LOT more energy usage.



    The empty land I described in the initial post is no different than the land in the population centers around it before they were populated. The same habitability exists, it is just a matter of having people move there and developing it.

    Just taking a random look at a US map, Conception, Missouri (pop 198) is in the center of 4 more populated cities (Lincoln (280k), Omaha (446k), Kansas City (480k), and Des Moines (215k)). There are numerous reasons why some areas in the American West became populated and others didn't, but Conception could easily have been (and still could be) identical to one of these larger 4 cities if enough people wanted to move there.

    The fact that there is overcrowding in urban areas isn't a byproduct of scarce available resources in other areas, it is the byproduct of the reality that most people would rather live somewhere where everything has been completely established versus going through the effort of moving to a rural area with fewer people but also fewer conveniences available.

    If thousands of people move to Conception (my apologies to anyone that may live here, I know nothing about it except that it is extremely small), the city tax revenue increases, they hire more police and firemen, they pave more streets, maybe a Walmart, Starbucks, and Home Depot get built, more people become willing to move here, more houses are built, more taxes are collected, more roads are paved, more businesses are started, etc., keep repeating, and years later, 100,000 people live here just as comfortably as they do in other similarly sized cities.
  • MeanderingMammal
    MeanderingMammal Posts: 7,866 Member
    edited May 2018
    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels. The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."

    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment. When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.

    That’s one of the best parodies I’ve ever read. First class. And amusing too

    I'm sorry you misunderstood... I'm 100% serious.

    OK, I'll take you seriously for just a second.

    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels.
    1. Where's the evidence that humanity is the cause of this change

    Notwithstanding the rest of this, there is a clear consensus that human activity is the most explicit source of climate change. We're seeing the effects of that now as historically closed trade routes open up, we see increasing extreme weather and we see the effects on changing agriculture opportunities.

    That's where you get into the so what? What kind of world do we want to live in, and what are the second and third order consequences of societal choices. As we move towards cultivation techniques that require greater active management does that create an inevitability of greater urbanisation; driving, and driven by, the distribution challenge upthread?

    The answer is not have fewer children, although again as highlighted birth rates are declining anyway.

    I'm not seeing that debate happening outside some fairly niche communities.
  • stanmann571
    stanmann571 Posts: 5,727 Member
    edited May 2018
    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels. The only question is: Will humanity work together in an effective way to slow our inevitable demise? The answer, IMO, is a resounding "no."

    Sure, many of us are doing things to be more "green," but the single most effective measure is to have fewer children. Very few of us are making the decision to remain childfree. Those of us who do are constantly pressured by family, friends, and even strangers to change our mind. Conversely, I've never seen it suggested to not procreate outside of groups who are known to already agree with the sentiment. When suggested outside of such groups, one is shot down with accusations of having racial or ethnic bias even when the suggestion is that nobody procreate regardless of their heritage. As a result of this stubborn culture, we are going to continue to see population growth and over-consumption of resources at faster and faster rates all the way up until we make ourselves extinct as a species.

    That’s one of the best parodies I’ve ever read. First class. And amusing too

    I'm sorry you misunderstood... I'm 100% serious.

    OK, I'll take you seriously for just a second.

    It's too late already. Over-consumption of Earth's resources has led to global climate change, which has now reached irreversible levels.
    1. Where's the evidence that humanity is the cause of this change

    Notwithstanding the rest of this, there is a clear consensus that human activity is the most explicit source of climate change. We're seeing the effects of that now as historically closed trade routes open up, we see increasing extreme weather and we see the effects on changing agriculture opportunities.

    That's where you get into the so what? What kind of world do we want to live in, and what are the second and third order consequences of societal choices. As we move towards cultivation techniques that require greater active management does that it an inevitability of greater urbanisation; driving, and driven by, the distribution challenge upthread?

    The answer is not have fewer children, although again as highlighted birth rates are declining anyway.

    I'm not seeing that debate happening outside some fairly niche communities.

    Consensus isn't how we do science.


    And yes, I agree that Global prosperity is likely to continue to drive birth rates down and bring us to an equilibrium.
  • MeanderingMammal
    MeanderingMammal Posts: 7,866 Member
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »
    Aaron_K123 wrote: »

    If you'd read the exchanges above, you'd find that there's more than enough land for 4-10 times our current population, and with the Israeli method enough water for 50x our population.

    About 10 years ago I took a road trip from Cleveland to Las Vegas, driving through Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Iowa, Nebraska, Colorado, Utah, and Nevada on the way there and Arizona, New Mexico, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Missouri, Kentucky, and Ohio on the way back. It is amazing how much unoccupied or sparsely occupied land is out there, there are stretches for hundreds of miles where there is absolutely no trace of civilization on either side of the highway. We have made the choice to settle in urban areas and suffocate ourselves by living on top of each other - there is an incredible amount of space available to sustain untold billions of people comfortably in the US and throughout the world, if we choose to develop it.

    We may have to get creative with energy production, but Nuclear, Geothermal, Solar, and Satellite Power have some very interesting promise. Hi tech Greenhouses could be installed in the top of New build apartments, to provide produce to the tenants.

    We truly live in amazing and wondrous times.

    ...satellite power?

    Still theoretical, but wireless transmission from solar collectors or other geosync generators. Still mostly the realm of Sci-Fi, but interesting in theory. Most likely will never be viable, but some of the applications on a larger and smaller scale are promising, some would require major tech overhauls,

    Uh why not just have the solar collectors on land...seems easier. I'm not convinced all this "empty land" represents tons more room for population growth...but it seems a decent place to put a solar farm.

    In principle, you'll get higher gain from the collection array being exposed to the source without atmospheric loss. By concentrating the downlink then atmospheric effects are minimised. By controlling the landing point then distribution loss is reduced.

    At the moment, launch costs and the challenges of maintaining an orbit become the obstacle. Low earth needs a lot of active flight control, geosynchronous increases the lossiness significantly.

    You could, in principle, provide global electricity needs from a small patch of the Sahara. You'd have depleted most of that getting it to the Libyan coast.

    Yeah and in theory I could get higher yields off my solar panels by erecting a 60 foot tall scaffold that angles the collectors due south and above any surrounding tree shade rather than put them on my roof. But I'm not going to do that because the cost of doing that would far exceed the amount of energy I would gain from having done so.

    Solar collectors are much MUCH cheaper and easier to maintain on land than in space. I mean, that is pretty evident. It is hard to imagine tech advancing to the point where it is cheaper and a quicker ROI to put panels in space than it is to just put them on land.

    There are some structural benefits in a geosynchronous orbit, essentially you can get very large arrays without the massive structures to support them. Until you've got commodities launch at that scale it's not remotely viable. Fwiw I trained in control engineering then spent several years in spacecraft operations in a military context. It's still in interesting academic debate territory and will remain so for a long time.

    Nuclear is a much more attractive option, supplemented with renewables and heat recovery.
This discussion has been closed.