Confused about the Interactions between Strength and a Calorie Deficit
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kiela64
Posts: 1,447 Member
Stats, if it matters: 5'2" 24 F SW: 205, CW: 184.8, GW: 130, calorie goal: 1lb/week at 1480cal/day without exercise. I eat back my exercise calories if I feel like I need to, but they are usually under 150cal and it isn't every day. I have over days too, so I go by more how I feel.
So this research black hole started because I've been losing weight a bit faster than I expected. I have a scale now, which I didn't have on my previous attempts, so I'm seeing my weight drop a bit almost daily. I like that, but I realized it was faster than my 1lb/week goal and even the 2lb/week goal I thought was too aggressive. From what I read, there's an initial water weight loss, but I've been losing since the end of April so I think I'm past that by now.
I ended up finding an old thread here about someone with a similar concern, and the conclusions people gave were that you lose 1lb of muscle with fewer calories than 1lb of fat. And if you aren't strength training or exercising very much it can be likely that that's what's happening with faster than expected loss.
In addition to losing weight I'm working on increasing my functional strength with several physio exercises and a very low level of low impact cardio exercise (gentle walks, cycling, and swimming for max 25-30min no more than 5x/week) to avoid injury. I'm also still recovering from a calf injury.
I really really don't want to compromise my ability to heal and increase the strength that's going to allow me to move through the world without injuring myself. I'm coming from being almost completely sedentary, so I don't think I had very much muscle to begin with.
I tried searching here and google about whether you can increase your strength - not muscle mass - in a calorie deficit and the results were extremely mixed. A lot of the information came from people in weight lifting sports or body building which is.....not my situation.
I wasn't so worried before, but I'm a little more worried now that I'm possibly a) losing the small amount of muscle I already had, b) losing strength instead of increasing it to functionally live my life because of my deficit. I'm also very hesitant to move back into maintenance because I am still at an obese BMI.
I'm just really confused about a) whether it's possible to increase (not maintain) strength (not muscle mass) from very little/none to begin with while in a caloric deficit.
So it would be awesome if anyone here had any knowledge about this and sources on it that are targeted to beginners/generally unfit and fat people, and not people trying to lean out for a body building/weight lifting competition.
So this research black hole started because I've been losing weight a bit faster than I expected. I have a scale now, which I didn't have on my previous attempts, so I'm seeing my weight drop a bit almost daily. I like that, but I realized it was faster than my 1lb/week goal and even the 2lb/week goal I thought was too aggressive. From what I read, there's an initial water weight loss, but I've been losing since the end of April so I think I'm past that by now.
I ended up finding an old thread here about someone with a similar concern, and the conclusions people gave were that you lose 1lb of muscle with fewer calories than 1lb of fat. And if you aren't strength training or exercising very much it can be likely that that's what's happening with faster than expected loss.
In addition to losing weight I'm working on increasing my functional strength with several physio exercises and a very low level of low impact cardio exercise (gentle walks, cycling, and swimming for max 25-30min no more than 5x/week) to avoid injury. I'm also still recovering from a calf injury.
I really really don't want to compromise my ability to heal and increase the strength that's going to allow me to move through the world without injuring myself. I'm coming from being almost completely sedentary, so I don't think I had very much muscle to begin with.
I tried searching here and google about whether you can increase your strength - not muscle mass - in a calorie deficit and the results were extremely mixed. A lot of the information came from people in weight lifting sports or body building which is.....not my situation.
I wasn't so worried before, but I'm a little more worried now that I'm possibly a) losing the small amount of muscle I already had, b) losing strength instead of increasing it to functionally live my life because of my deficit. I'm also very hesitant to move back into maintenance because I am still at an obese BMI.
I'm just really confused about a) whether it's possible to increase (not maintain) strength (not muscle mass) from very little/none to begin with while in a caloric deficit.
So it would be awesome if anyone here had any knowledge about this and sources on it that are targeted to beginners/generally unfit and fat people, and not people trying to lean out for a body building/weight lifting competition.
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Replies
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People who are beginners to resistance training are capable of gaining muscle and strength while losing weight. The same goes for people who are carrying high amounts of body fat and people who are returning to lifting after taking time off. Physio is a good place to start with building some strength, but as you are able to make progress with and beyond that it may be a good idea to consider adding in other resistance training.5
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Yes you can gain strength in a deficit even when starting from no ability, overweight and unfit. That is my story.1
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You can also gain strength in a deficit if the muscles your targeting are atrophied from something like surgery and weren't allowed to do things like bear weight or use that limb for much of anything. See all of the muscles in my left leg as well as the various muscles that control my right shoulder.2
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People who are beginners to resistance training are capable of gaining muscle and strength while losing weight. The same goes for people who are carrying high amounts of body fat and people who are returning to lifting after taking time off. Physio is a good place to start with building some strength, but as you are able to make progress with and beyond that it may be a good idea to consider adding in other resistance training.Yes you can gain strength in a deficit even when starting from no ability, overweight and unfit. That is my story.You can also gain strength in a deficit if the muscles your targeting are atrophied from something like surgery and weren't allowed to do things like bear weight or use that limb for much of anything. See all of the muscles in my left leg as well as the various muscles that control my right shoulder.
Thank you guys! This is incredibly relieving to hear. I was so anxious that I was creating another problem for myself.
And all the info I found was extreme like carb % and carb cycling and protein g/bodyweight and super duper impossible for me at this time.
I am definitely interested in progressing to more bodyweight exercises once I get beyond my physio. But as it’s a leg injury I definitely won’t do any weight-bearing exercises until I am fully healed and increase through bodyweight work and get an okay from my physiotherapist.1 -
You absolutely can increase your strength while in a deficit/without building more muscle mass, especially as a beginner. Your primary strength increases are going to come from fiber recruitment (your central nervous system becoming more efficient at recruiting more muscle fibers) and rate coding (your central nervous system increasing the rate/strength of the bioelectrical impulses which cause muscle contraction). It's quite common for a beginning strength trainer to make quite considerable increases in strength without noticeable increases in muscle mass....I tried searching here and google about whether you can increase your strength - not muscle mass - in a calorie deficit and the results were extremely mixed. A lot of the information came from people in weight lifting sports or body building which is.....not my situation...
As far as retaining muscle mass, the keys are a reasonable (not too big) calorie deficit, adequate protein intake and progressive strength training which challenges your muscles and creates a need for them to adapt (grow stronger). That doesn't mean you have to start off trying to lift huge amounts of weight, because "heavy" is a relative term to each individual. For example, bench pressing an unloaded barbell (the bar alone weighs ~45 lbs) is a trivial effort for some people, while others may not even be able to bench press it once. For the latter person, that 45 lb. bar would be "lifting heavy"; for the former, it wouldn't even constitute enough weight for a warm-up set. Bodyweight exercises are a fine place to start if that's where one feels comfortable, and there are options which allow for quite a bit of progression without ever touching a barbell/dumbbell.9 -
You absolutely can increase your strength while in a deficit/without building more muscle mass, especially as a beginner. Your primary strength increases are going to come from fiber recruitment (your central nervous system becoming more efficient at recruiting more muscle fibers) and rate coding (your central nervous system increasing the rate/strength of the bioelectrical impulses which cause muscle contraction). It's quite common for a beginning strength trainer to make quite considerable increases in strength without noticeable increases in muscle mass....I tried searching here and google about whether you can increase your strength - not muscle mass - in a calorie deficit and the results were extremely mixed. A lot of the information came from people in weight lifting sports or body building which is.....not my situation...
As far as retaining muscle mass, the keys are a reasonable (not too big) calorie deficit, adequate protein intake and progressive strength training which challenges your muscles and creates a need for them to adapt (grow stronger). That doesn't mean you have to start off trying to lift huge amounts of weight, because "heavy" is a relative term to each individual. For example, bench pressing an unloaded barbell (the bar alone weighs ~45 lbs) is a trivial effort for some people, while others may not even be able to bench press it once. For the latter person, that 45 lb. bar would be "lifting heavy"; for the former, it wouldn't even constitute enough weight for a warm-up set. Bodyweight exercises are a fine place to start if that's where one feels comfortable, and there are options which allow for quite a bit of progression without ever touching a barbell/dumbbell.
Thank you so much for this information!!!!!! It’s really great to know this. It definitely puts my mind at ease. Contradictory info and google can fuel anxiety like nobody's business.
And I am absolutely the latter - I'm barely able to lift 20lbs, and I'm at 10 bodyweight squats, 2x/week. So in order to lift that bar, to use your example, and do anything with it - that's a significant ways away.0 -
You absolutely can increase your strength while in a deficit/without building more muscle mass, especially as a beginner. Your primary strength increases are going to come from fiber recruitment (your central nervous system becoming more efficient at recruiting more muscle fibers) and rate coding (your central nervous system increasing the rate/strength of the bioelectrical impulses which cause muscle contraction). It's quite common for a beginning strength trainer to make quite considerable increases in strength without noticeable increases in muscle mass....I tried searching here and google about whether you can increase your strength - not muscle mass - in a calorie deficit and the results were extremely mixed. A lot of the information came from people in weight lifting sports or body building which is.....not my situation...
As far as retaining muscle mass, the keys are a reasonable (not too big) calorie deficit, adequate protein intake and progressive strength training which challenges your muscles and creates a need for them to adapt (grow stronger). That doesn't mean you have to start off trying to lift huge amounts of weight, because "heavy" is a relative term to each individual. For example, bench pressing an unloaded barbell (the bar alone weighs ~45 lbs) is a trivial effort for some people, while others may not even be able to bench press it once. For the latter person, that 45 lb. bar would be "lifting heavy"; for the former, it wouldn't even constitute enough weight for a warm-up set. Bodyweight exercises are a fine place to start if that's where one feels comfortable, and there are options which allow for quite a bit of progression without ever touching a barbell/dumbbell.
Thank you so much for this information!!!!!! It’s really great to know this. It definitely puts my mind at ease. Contradictory info and google can fuel anxiety like nobody's business.
And I am absolutely the latter - I'm barely able to lift 20lbs, and I'm at 10 bodyweight squats, 2x/week. So in order to lift that bar, to use your example, and do anything with it - that's a significant ways away.
When I started 4 years ago I couldn't do a wall squat to parallel and lowest level step ups were a challenge. I have made progress every week since. "What seems impossible today will one day be your warm up." I can't tell you his true this is! Just be patient, move forward in small but consistent steps, keep track of your progress.3 -
You absolutely can increase your strength while in a deficit/without building more muscle mass, especially as a beginner. Your primary strength increases are going to come from fiber recruitment (your central nervous system becoming more efficient at recruiting more muscle fibers) and rate coding (your central nervous system increasing the rate/strength of the bioelectrical impulses which cause muscle contraction). It's quite common for a beginning strength trainer to make quite considerable increases in strength without noticeable increases in muscle mass....I tried searching here and google about whether you can increase your strength - not muscle mass - in a calorie deficit and the results were extremely mixed. A lot of the information came from people in weight lifting sports or body building which is.....not my situation...
As far as retaining muscle mass, the keys are a reasonable (not too big) calorie deficit, adequate protein intake and progressive strength training which challenges your muscles and creates a need for them to adapt (grow stronger). That doesn't mean you have to start off trying to lift huge amounts of weight, because "heavy" is a relative term to each individual. For example, bench pressing an unloaded barbell (the bar alone weighs ~45 lbs) is a trivial effort for some people, while others may not even be able to bench press it once. For the latter person, that 45 lb. bar would be "lifting heavy"; for the former, it wouldn't even constitute enough weight for a warm-up set. Bodyweight exercises are a fine place to start if that's where one feels comfortable, and there are options which allow for quite a bit of progression without ever touching a barbell/dumbbell.
Thank you so much for this information!!!!!! It’s really great to know this. It definitely puts my mind at ease. Contradictory info and google can fuel anxiety like nobody's business.
And I am absolutely the latter - I'm barely able to lift 20lbs, and I'm at 10 bodyweight squats, 2x/week. So in order to lift that bar, to use your example, and do anything with it - that's a significant ways away.
When I started 4 years ago I couldn't do a wall squat to parallel and lowest level step ups were a challenge. I have made progress every week since. "What seems impossible today will one day be your warm up." I can't tell you his true this is! Just be patient, move forward in small but consistent steps, keep track of your progress.
thank you for sharing that! that's so encouraging to hear! Congratulations 
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I started about fifteen months ago with resistance tubes and bands. About a year ago, I went on to (very!) light dumbbells. Three and five pounders to start. And a book on strength training that gave a wide variety of exercises at different levels of difficulty for each muscle group, mostly dumbbell and bodyweight, some incorporating other reasonably-priced equipment (think stability ball, cardio step, medicine balls, etc.).
At present, I lift dumbbells up to 20lbs (so, 40lbs total, one in each hand). Things I've noticed:- When I'm in Canadian Tire (hardware, automotive, sporting goods, fitness, small appliances, gardening center basically), I walk over to the dumbbells to see what I can pick up, even if I'm not ready to work out with it yet. Over the course of a year, I've gone from being barely able to lift a 12lb, to picking up a 30. I can't use it yet, but it's something to shoot for.
- I can carry a 25-year-old TV from the garage to the top of the (uphill) driveway for the garbage collectors without staggering or straining.
- I've had a couple of surgeries recently. In the recovery room after the first one, a nurse asked me if I could 'try' to sit up to drink some apple juice. I did. Easily. So easily that I was sort of trying to figure out if this was usually a problem for people. And the nurse complimented me on my trunk muscles!
- Just in general, when I'm walking, I can feel my muscles more engaged. My stamina has increased. My 'default' walking speed used to be about 2.8mph. Now it's 3.5. Some of that is probably because I'm used to walking for about 2 hours daily now. But I'm chalking some of it up to a lot of lower body strength training.
- So... it seems I have deltoids. Oh, and someone told me my butt has all but disappeared.
I don't belong to a gym and don't have a reliable spotter, so at present, I'm not looking to lift heavy. (I also don't own a barbell or a bench and I'm not planning on getting either any time soon.)3 -
I started off barely able to do 10 bodyweight squats, and within a year could squat my bodyweight 10 reps. I started off swinging water bottles around for weights, and can now bench 115 lbs. You can definitely make gains as an obese woman in a deficit! You are stronger than you realize because you carry the weight of your body around. I remember when I first reached the point of squatting 60 lbs as a warm up weight, and it seemed so easy, as easy as bodyweight squats used to be, and then I realized I had lost more than 60 lbs - it was easy because I used to carry that much weight all the time!
Even if your goal is just to stay healthy, lifting heavy is protective of your lean muscle mass. It's also good for insulin resistance if you are diabetic or pre-diabetic or have PCOS. Go slow at first to let your tendons get strong, but don't be afraid!
I also lose faster than MFP predicts - some people are just lucky like that. It means you can eat a few extra calories.2 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »I started about fifteen months ago with resistance tubes and bands. About a year ago, I went on to (very!) light dumbbells. Three and five pounders to start. And a book on strength training that gave a wide variety of exercises at different levels of difficulty for each muscle group, mostly dumbbell and bodyweight, some incorporating other reasonably-priced equipment (think stability ball, cardio step, medicine balls, etc.).
At present, I lift dumbbells up to 20lbs (so, 40lbs total, one in each hand). Things I've noticed:- When I'm in Canadian Tire (hardware, automotive, sporting goods, fitness, small appliances, gardening center basically), I walk over to the dumbbells to see what I can pick up, even if I'm not ready to work out with it yet. Over the course of a year, I've gone from being barely able to lift a 12lb, to picking up a 30. I can't use it yet, but it's something to shoot for.
- I can carry a 25-year-old TV from the garage to the top of the (uphill) driveway for the garbage collectors without staggering or straining.
- I've had a couple of surgeries recently. In the recovery room after the first one, a nurse asked me if I could 'try' to sit up to drink some apple juice. I did. Easily. So easily that I was sort of trying to figure out if this was usually a problem for people. And the nurse complimented me on my trunk muscles!
- Just in general, when I'm walking, I can feel my muscles more engaged. My stamina has increased. My 'default' walking speed used to be about 2.8mph. Now it's 3.5. Some of that is probably because I'm used to walking for about 2 hours daily now. But I'm chalking some of it up to a lot of lower body strength training.
- So... it seems I have deltoids. Oh, and someone told me my butt has all but disappeared.
I don't belong to a gym and don't have a reliable spotter, so at present, I'm not looking to lift heavy. (I also don't own a barbell or a bench and I'm not planning on getting either any time soon.)
Wow! That is awesome!!!! That sounds like it’s truly improving your life!
Gosh I can’t wait to be able to walk every day (currently limited to 2 20min walks per week by my physio). But eventually!
Do you mind if I ask what book?0 -
rheddmobile wrote: »I started off barely able to do 10 bodyweight squats, and within a year could squat my bodyweight 10 reps. I started off swinging water bottles around for weights, and can now bench 115 lbs. You can definitely make gains as an obese woman in a deficit! You are stronger than you realize because you carry the weight of your body around. I remember when I first reached the point of squatting 60 lbs as a warm up weight, and it seemed so easy, as easy as bodyweight squats used to be, and then I realized I had lost more than 60 lbs - it was easy because I used to carry that much weight all the time!
Even if your goal is just to stay healthy, lifting heavy is protective of your lean muscle mass. It's also good for insulin resistance if you are diabetic or pre-diabetic or have PCOS. Go slow at first to let your tendons get strong, but don't be afraid!
I also lose faster than MFP predicts - some people are just lucky like that. It means you can eat a few extra calories.
Awesome! That is an incredibly impressive story!!! Thank you for sharing!
My body is actually quite weak because it isn’t supporting itself properly - hence the physio. When I started, she told me that my quads were essentially doing the work of my glutes and we’ve since discovered a whole host of strange imbalances and compensations from my feet to my hips. I’m hoping weight loss will help too.2 -
Not at all! It's Strength Training Exercises for Women by Joan Pagano. It's great for beginners. One drawback: most of her exercises stop at around 12lb weights. That being said, there's nothing to stop folks from continuing on with heavier ones, which is what I've been doing.3
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rheddmobile wrote: »I started off barely able to do 10 bodyweight squats, and within a year could squat my bodyweight 10 reps. I started off swinging water bottles around for weights, and can now bench 115 lbs. You can definitely make gains as an obese woman in a deficit! You are stronger than you realize because you carry the weight of your body around. I remember when I first reached the point of squatting 60 lbs as a warm up weight, and it seemed so easy, as easy as bodyweight squats used to be, and then I realized I had lost more than 60 lbs - it was easy because I used to carry that much weight all the time!
Even if your goal is just to stay healthy, lifting heavy is protective of your lean muscle mass. It's also good for insulin resistance if you are diabetic or pre-diabetic or have PCOS. Go slow at first to let your tendons get strong, but don't be afraid!
I also lose faster than MFP predicts - some people are just lucky like that. It means you can eat a few extra calories.
Awesome! That is an incredibly impressive story!!! Thank you for sharing!
My body is actually quite weak because it isn’t supporting itself properly - hence the physio. When I started, she told me that my quads were essentially doing the work of my glutes and we’ve since discovered a whole host of strange imbalances and compensations from my feet to my hips. I’m hoping weight loss will help too.
It's pretty common for someone new to lifting to be quad dominant. What helped me the most with that was straight legged deadlifts - kettlebell swings work basically the same muscle groups. Something for you to look forward to!3 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »Not at all! It's Strength Training Exercises for Women by Joan Pagano. It's great for beginners. One drawback: most of her exercises stop at around 12lb weights. That being said, there's nothing to stop folks from continuing on with heavier ones, which is what I've been doing.
Awesome thank you! I’ll keep my eye out for it!0 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »Not at all! It's Strength Training Exercises for Women by Joan Pagano. It's great for beginners. One drawback: most of her exercises stop at around 12lb weights. That being said, there's nothing to stop folks from continuing on with heavier ones, which is what I've been doing.
I found it for $8 on Amazon so I’ve grabbed it & I’ll check it out. Thank you!2 -
estherdragonbat wrote: »Not at all! It's Strength Training Exercises for Women by Joan Pagano. It's great for beginners. One drawback: most of her exercises stop at around 12lb weights. That being said, there's nothing to stop folks from continuing on with heavier ones, which is what I've been doing.
Grrr yay for a book that's great but frustrating that it purpetuates the myth that women don't or should lift heavy3 -
Well, she does recommend that you keep going by increasing weights and reps, but she tucks that line away in the text near the end. I love the exercises, the way she breaks them down by difficulty level, the sample full-body strength and strength-and-cardio workouts and the clear instructions and tips on common mistakes.
I agree that she should have stressed a need to go progressively heavier and even include sets and reps for heavier weights (I'm still doing 8-12 reps per set, 1-3 sets for most exercises). I can definitely see how someone could come away thinking that once they've reached the top level given in the book, they should just stay at that point.
Thing is, one drawback I found when I was checking out a few of the lifting programs recommended on this site was that it was really hard to pin down good starting weights for dumbbells/barbels. To have a book that spelled out: Level 1. 10 reps, 3lb weights, 1-2 sets; Level 2. 12-15 reps, 5-8lb weights, 1-2 sets; Level 3. 8-12 reps, 10-12lb weights,1-3 sets, was exactly what I needed to read in order to get started. And when I started realizing, "You know? I actually think I hate bicycle crunches. What else can I do that'll work my abs?" it was great to have step-by-step instructions for another six exercises that targeted the same muscles right at my fingertips.
So, yeah, the book's not perfect, but it's a great starting point.
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estherdragonbat wrote: »Not at all! It's Strength Training Exercises for Women by Joan Pagano. It's great for beginners. One drawback: most of her exercises stop at around 12lb weights. That being said, there's nothing to stop folks from continuing on with heavier ones, which is what I've been doing.
@estherdragonbat Thank you again! I kept fluffing around the Internet thinking I’d be able to figure it out for free, but very unsuccessfully. I found the book used on amazon for $8 and it took a month to get to me but it finally arrived yesterday!! I’ve only poked through it a little this morning but it looks like a really great compliment to my physio and I’m looking forward to using it 😁 it’s so much more straightforward than a lot of the things I’ve looked at online. I’ve also acquired a pair of 3lb dumbbells as well so I’m set to start it ASAP.0 -
I know this thread is older, but since it sounds like you are just starting with the strength training at this time, so I'll chime in with my 2 cents anyway...
losing muscle vs losing fat - you can, on average, metabolize about 1% of your body fat in any given week. Losing faster than that is going to increase the muscle loss, except for other mitigating factors like water loss.
Increasing strength - you will get stronger both through adaptation (learning how to lift more with the muscles you have) and growth (actually building more muscle tissue). Adaptation has nothing at all to do with calories consumed. Given sufficient adipose fat available, it's quite easy to grow muscles even at a consumption deficit - because your body already has all the "extra calories" it needs. The need to consume more food to support muscle growth is more of an issue when you get to lower levels of body fat.
Muscle growth is all about doing more work over time...more work in terms of how much you are lifting and how many times you are lifting it...so, whatever routine you do, you want to increase reps or increase weight as you progress through time with the routine. This is what makes muscles grow, progressively working them more over time. Hopefully that makes sense.
Protein - this is very important, I inevitably find that if I don't get sufficient protein then not only does my lifting performance suffer, but also I am more sore after lifting and more likely to injure myself while lifting. I aim for 154g/day but I am 5'9" and 150ish lbs so bigger than you are, you might not need as much. Based on measurements, I have definitely been able to grow muscle even at a calorie deficit, but I have a pudgy bit of belly, so I got some "extra calories" in the tank.
And massive kudos for lifting weights, it so important for bone density and more people should pick up heavy things!!!2
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