"it takes the body one year to adapt to a new weight"
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This is accurate. It can take 2-3 years before the body quits fighting so hard against you. Extreme dieting and overrestriction has proven to be completely unsuccessful for maintaining a major weight loss. With striatal dopamine D2 receptors that are low to begin with and many feeling the body has recovered once the weight has been released...that's only the beginning. You are in for the fight of your life to balance and maintain. 'Satiety levels are way off'. 100% correct. If you start increasing the food reward threshold over weeks or months or years you begin digging a much deeper hole. Every extreme weight loss and dieting excursion has consequences with the metabolism. Going slow is the only answer for the appetite control center located in brain and not the stomach to heal, catch up, balance and recover.
I wonder what slow loss means?
I’ve been overweight or obese pretty much my entire life. I’m 51, down to 159 and 5’8”. It took me about 15 months to get here. I’m 5.5 lbs below the top of the normal range. I’ve never, ever maintained below 170 for more than a couple of weeks. I’ve been under 170 for a few months now. I feel like I’ve learned a lot this time and ready for the fight.5 -
Lean bulking happens at different rates for men and women. Beginners aka Beginners Growth Spurt can actually get away with more calories than those who've been lifting heavy things for a long time. Alrighty then, without too much overthinking it, you simply eat more calories on your training days and less on your days off. But don't over-restrict your calories on off days because there will be blowback for that.
It's a balancing act and a bit a cr@pshoot but 500 calories more for workout/training days is a rule of thumb. Lean bulking is gaining muscle with minimal fat. This is going to take a lorra, lorra time and will require so much patience with yourself. Slow is better for everything. Isn't that the way.
I always wondered about this idea of eating for training. Depending on what you eat, the digestion times vary dramatically as far as when it will be available as fuel or raw material for the body to use.2 -
Good, because I like warriors who are willing to fight against our old norms. It takes true grit. I know how to do this solo and I know how to encourage myself to keep going but I just decided to make a connection with others on this forum. Falling back into our old habits will get us nowhere good. It can all come undone in the blink of an eye. The days roll into months and years. I've made a stand, drawn my line in the sand. I haven't got time for all of that pain. Finding our way happens one meal at a time. Every meal is our next reset. Mental and physical. Keep fighting for it, ITUSGirl51. Doing what we've always done will get us what we've always gotten.7
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Good, because I like warriors who are willing to fight against our old norms. It takes true grit. I know how to do this solo and I know how to encourage myself to keep going but I just decided to make a connection with others on this forum. Falling back into our old habits will get us nowhere good. It can all come undone in the blink of an eye. The days roll into months and years. I've made a stand, drawn my line in the sand. I haven't got time for all of that pain. Finding our way happens one meal at a time. Every meal is our next reset. Mental and physical. Keep fighting for it, ITUSGirl51. Doing what we've always done will get us what we've always gotten.
Thank you for the encouragement!1 -
So firstly, think about how some people lose weight on crazy fad diets. Obviously they can't sustain these diets indefinitely, so they inevitably will regain.
Some tidbits from Lyle McDonald regarding the famous Minnesota starvation study, with regard to LBM:
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In that same Minnesota study, when the men were given free access to food, they ate with abandon, rapidly regaining weight and body fat. In fact, their hunger remained elevated long after their body fat was restored and didn't return to normal until their LBM was also regained (13). They ended up with a higher BF% than they started for this reason. It's now known that LBM sends an independent signal that drives hunger which makes preventing it's loss during a diet along with restoring it as rapidly as possible after a diet critical to avoiding fat regain (the combination of resistant training and sufficient protein, both of which were absent in that study, is the key to both goals).
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Lyle McDonald. The Women's Book (Kindle Locations 3067-3072). Lyle McDonald.
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With regard to popular diets:
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Historically, most have ignored any distinction between body weight and body fat (or even addressed body composition at all) although this is changing in recent years. In many cases, this is probably deliberate as rapid water weight losses in the first few days of many types of diets (especially carbohydrate restricted diets) make it look as if the diet has some metabolic advantage or is working more effectively than it is.
These types of books, even the good ones, are generally written in the same fashion and some of the messages they give can lead dieters down a dangerous path. They usually start out by saying that calories don't matter, that calorie restricted diets don't work in the long term before proceeding to demonize some single nutrient as the cause of obesity (in rarer cases the lack of a certain nutrient may be blamed). This could be dietary fat, sugar or carbohydrates in general. In recent years, High-Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) has been blamed as the cause of obesity. The book will argue that by removing the nutrient, weight/ fat loss will occur easily without hunger or calorie restriction.
Lyle McDonald. The Women's Book (Kindle Locations 5688-5691). Lyle McDonald.4 -
I’m thinking maybe your previous history plays a part. I’ve been obese only once in my life and when I finally lost that weight I found maintenance for the first 4ish years fairly easy. Before that I would sometimes drift up to overweight here and there. I would self correct and then just drift back down again. About four years after my big loss I had an extremely stressful year where I just didn’t care and gained 20+ pounds. I let it go on for another year before I set myself straight and lost an additional 16lbs. About 10lbs of that has really been a battle the last couple of years. I really have to work at keeping it off where the previous 67 or so seemed easy for years. I have yet to figure out the ‘why’ of it.0
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annaskiski wrote: »With regard to popular diets:
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Historically, most have ignored any distinction between body weight and body fat (or even addressed body composition at all) although this is changing in recent years. In many cases, this is probably deliberate as rapid water weight losses in the first few days of many types of diets (especially carbohydrate restricted diets) make it look as if the diet has some metabolic advantage or is working more effectively than it is.
These types of books, even the good ones, are generally written in the same fashion and some of the messages they give can lead dieters down a dangerous path. They usually start out by saying that calories don't matter, that calorie restricted diets don't work in the long term before proceeding to demonize some single nutrient as the cause of obesity (in rarer cases the lack of a certain nutrient may be blamed). This could be dietary fat, sugar or carbohydrates in general. In recent years, High-Fructose Corn Syrup (HFCS) has been blamed as the cause of obesity. The book will argue that by removing the nutrient, weight/ fat loss will occur easily without hunger or calorie restriction.
Lyle McDonald. The Women's Book (Kindle Locations 5688-5691). Lyle McDonald.
What is strange about this is, in the Biggest loser study, the contestants lost 80% + weight from fat mass and less than 20% came from lean mass. Though, I think some of the numbers are flawed as far as reading their metabolisms, total predicted TDEE came out nearly perfect per Kevin Hall's model. That tells me it does have a lot to do with fat cells and leptin.2 -
The issue is that lean mass is far harder to recover than fat. So while fat also plays a role, the body's hormone levels provoke an 'eat' response until the lean mass is also recovered, which is long after the 'old' body fat percentage is reached.
Hence, the hunger signals stay high long after the person even regains their old weight. Without vigilance on calorie counting, the person ends up at a higher weight, and higher body fat percentage.4 -
In one study, the total drop in TDEE was 500 calories per day there was only a 3-5% adaptive decrease in RMR present (31). This amounts to perhaps 40-70 calories per day and again changes in RMR really aren't responsible for the large scale changes that are occurring. Adaptive changes in the other components have not been studied to a great degree but it is likely that they are maintained to one degree or another. Certainly the motivation and ability to exercise can increase when food intake is raised and it's possible that NEAT will recover or increase once the person is no longer active dieting. But the fact remains that TDEE will always be reduced with some degree of the adaptive component still being present. At least some increase in hunger and appetite is also usually seen although, once again, it will be less than during the period of active dieting since more food is being eaten and at least some hormonal recovery will have occurred.
Lyle McDonald. The Women's Book (Kindle Locations 3237-3243). Lyle McDonald.0 -
annaskiski wrote: »The issue is that lean mass is far harder to recover than fat. So while fat also plays a role, the body's hormone levels provoke an 'eat' response until the lean mass is also recovered, which is long after the 'old' body fat percentage is reached.
Hence, the hunger signals stay high long after the person even regains their old weight. Without vigilance on calorie counting, the person ends up at a higher weight, and higher body fat percentage.
Yes, body fat over shooting. It has been studied in rats, but not really in humans I believe. Noted in humans. Could be that the new fat cells that are created from binges, usually binges, actually creates new fat cells that have to be filled to the size of the old fat cells? Along with the need to return lean mass.1 -
So in other words ^^ the person's TDEE dropped by 500 calories, but only 40-70 was RMR, the rest was due to NEAT (lethargy).
So while some metabolic adaptions are permanent, they are small. The NEAT part is under a person's control, though its obviously not easy. For some time after weight loss, the person needs to be vigilant about CICO.1 -
psychod787 wrote: »annaskiski wrote: »The issue is that lean mass is far harder to recover than fat. So while fat also plays a role, the body's hormone levels provoke an 'eat' response until the lean mass is also recovered, which is long after the 'old' body fat percentage is reached.
Hence, the hunger signals stay high long after the person even regains their old weight. Without vigilance on calorie counting, the person ends up at a higher weight, and higher body fat percentage.
Yes, body fat over shooting. It has been studied in rats, but not really in humans I believe. Noted in humans. Could be that the new fat cells that are created from binges, usually binges, actually creates new fat cells that have to be filled to the size of the old fat cells? Along with the need to return lean mass.
Lyle quoted the Minnesota study and Leibel study showing this phenomenon in humans.0 -
Thanks everyone for sharing anecdotal and research on this topic. It makes so much sense and helps me understand a bit more why I struggled to keep weight off before.1
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Something that has nothing to do with hormones though is that when you lose weight slowly, it gives you more time to make new habits.5
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Something that has nothing to do with hormones though is that when you lose weight slowly, it gives you more time to make new habits.
By the time you enter maintenance, what you are eating should not seem like a restricted diet you are going off of. If it does, you are not nearly as likely to keep the weight off.5 -
CarvedTones wrote: »Something that has nothing to do with hormones though is that when you lose weight slowly, it gives you more time to make new habits.
By the time you enter maintenance, what you are eating should not seem like a restricted diet you are going off of. If it does, you are not nearly as likely to keep the weight off.
I disagree. The only way I would not feel restricted is to eat as much as I want. The only way to maintain is to restrict the number of calories I eat.
I don’t have rules about what food I can eat, but I do watch my total calories for the day. I am still hungry on some days and still have the urge to binge when not physically hungry on some days, but I’ve done well the first couple of months by watching my calorie intake. Even my husband who has maintained his weight within a 10 lb range his entire adult life, restricts what he eats so he can maintain his weight.4 -
ITUSGirl51 wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »Something that has nothing to do with hormones though is that when you lose weight slowly, it gives you more time to make new habits.
By the time you enter maintenance, what you are eating should not seem like a restricted diet you are going off of. If it does, you are not nearly as likely to keep the weight off.
I disagree. The only way I would not feel restricted is to eat as much as I want. The only way to maintain is to restrict the number of calories I eat.
I don’t have rules about what food I can eat, but I do watch my total calories for the day. I am still hungry on some days and still have the urge to binge when not physically hungry on some days, but I’ve done well the first couple of months by watching my calorie intake. Even my husband who has maintained his weight within a 10 lb range his entire adult life, restricts what he eats so he can maintain his weight.
There were two parts - "a restricted diet you are going off of". Yes, there are restrictions or maybe restraints is a better word. But what I meant is that if you are restricted so much that maintenance is a big change because you are going off of your restricted diet then you are less likely to be successful4 -
CarvedTones wrote: »ITUSGirl51 wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »Something that has nothing to do with hormones though is that when you lose weight slowly, it gives you more time to make new habits.
By the time you enter maintenance, what you are eating should not seem like a restricted diet you are going off of. If it does, you are not nearly as likely to keep the weight off.
I disagree. The only way I would not feel restricted is to eat as much as I want. The only way to maintain is to restrict the number of calories I eat.
I don’t have rules about what food I can eat, but I do watch my total calories for the day. I am still hungry on some days and still have the urge to binge when not physically hungry on some days, but I’ve done well the first couple of months by watching my calorie intake. Even my husband who has maintained his weight within a 10 lb range his entire adult life, restricts what he eats so he can maintain his weight.
There were two parts - "a restricted diet you are going off of". Yes, there are restrictions or maybe restraints is a better word. But what I meant is that if you are restricted so much that maintenance is a big change because you are going off of your restricted diet then you are less likely to be successful
Bottom line really is that you still have to restrict yourself at maintenance.
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CarvedTones wrote: »ITUSGirl51 wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »Something that has nothing to do with hormones though is that when you lose weight slowly, it gives you more time to make new habits.
By the time you enter maintenance, what you are eating should not seem like a restricted diet you are going off of. If it does, you are not nearly as likely to keep the weight off.
I disagree. The only way I would not feel restricted is to eat as much as I want. The only way to maintain is to restrict the number of calories I eat.
I don’t have rules about what food I can eat, but I do watch my total calories for the day. I am still hungry on some days and still have the urge to binge when not physically hungry on some days, but I’ve done well the first couple of months by watching my calorie intake. Even my husband who has maintained his weight within a 10 lb range his entire adult life, restricts what he eats so he can maintain his weight.
There were two parts - "a restricted diet you are going off of". Yes, there are restrictions or maybe restraints is a better word. But what I meant is that if you are restricted so much that maintenance is a big change because you are going off of your restricted diet then you are less likely to be successful
Bottom line really is that you still have to restrict yourself at maintenance.
I like restraint better than restricted. I think of restricted as not allowing certain things and restraint as not having too much of things but allowing everything. Anyway, yes, I am still exercising constraint. But my point was/is that it was not a big adjustment. IME, the bigger the adjustment at maintenance, the greater the chance of failure. In the past, when I did crash dieting all the way down, I would return to my old habits but just try not to let eating get out of control. Never worked. This time, I wasn't eating a lot less than maintenance toward the end of the loss and the smaller adjustment was easier to make successfully (so far).7 -
CarvedTones wrote: »
I like restraint better than restricted. I think of restricted as not allowing certain things and restraint as not having too much of things but allowing everything. Anyway, yes, I am still exercising constraint. But my point was/is that it was not a big adjustment. IME, the bigger the adjustment at maintenance, the greater the chance of failure. In the past, when I did crash dieting all the way down, I would return to my old habits but just try not to let eating get out of control. Never worked. This time, I wasn't eating a lot less than maintenance toward the end of the loss and the smaller adjustment was easier to make successfully (so far).
I like this as well.
Think of this analogy. My car will go 150MPH. It can accelerate to 60MPH in 5 seconds. I may show restraint by driving at 70MPH on the freeway, but I don't restrict myself by not using the acceleration to get to 70MPH as fast as possible from time to time.
If one can drive at or near the speed limit even though their car can go twice as fast, you have the skills to show restraint in your eating by not exceeding your daily calorie limits. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy a decadent treat (fast acceleration.) But it does mean you will reach that limit quicker and have to get out of the throttle/put the fork down sooner.
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I also think many of us turn to different kind of foods overall. Where as I used to use globs of pnut butter and heaps of jelly. I now use pb fit and fresh fruit on a sandwich... most of the time. I will use half the eggs and add egg whites and veggies to meals. Make things stretch a bit. I actually eat physically more now than I did at 400lbs. Just less calorically dense. I pick and choose my calorically dense food. So, you don't always have to eat "less", just less dense food. Imho....6
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Sometimes I bend restraint; I do make trade offs and roll forward. Tonight I made spaghetti with ground chicken. I took a small serving of noodles and a decent, but not ridiculous, amount of meat and sauce. I was leaving myself ~200 calories for fruit snacks later. I also made breadsticks for the kids. They came out so perfect - just browned, still soft but not doughy. I wanted one and I spent my fruit calories to get it. Now, I wish I could have a piece of fruit. So I am going to make another trade and have a piece of fruit that I log as if I ate it tomorrow. I do this sort of thing all the time. I never roll forward more than 100 calories. Rolling forward works for me because after breakfast I can pretty much plan the rest of the day with the budget I have left. I haven't gone over my limit by more than ~30 calories in 9 months, even though I have played funny math to make it average out across more than one day. I don't roll forward all that often; I may go 3 weeks without doing it and then do it 3 times in a week. I rarely roll more than one day in a row, but sometimes I do. In the long run, I get the calories allotted and no more.3
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tbright1965 wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »
I like restraint better than restricted. I think of restricted as not allowing certain things and restraint as not having too much of things but allowing everything. Anyway, yes, I am still exercising constraint. But my point was/is that it was not a big adjustment. IME, the bigger the adjustment at maintenance, the greater the chance of failure. In the past, when I did crash dieting all the way down, I would return to my old habits but just try not to let eating get out of control. Never worked. This time, I wasn't eating a lot less than maintenance toward the end of the loss and the smaller adjustment was easier to make successfully (so far).
I like this as well.
Think of this analogy. My car will go 150MPH. It can accelerate to 60MPH in 5 seconds. I may show restraint by driving at 70MPH on the freeway, but I don't restrict myself by not using the acceleration to get to 70MPH as fast as possible from time to time.
If one can drive at or near the speed limit even though their car can go twice as fast, you have the skills to show restraint in your eating by not exceeding your daily calorie limits. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy a decadent treat (fast acceleration.) But it does mean you will reach that limit quicker and have to get out of the throttle/put the fork down sooner.
My favorite analogy about making the small adjustment at the end is airplanes slowly descending for a soft landing. When they land by falling out of the sky the result usually isn't as successful.4 -
CarvedTones wrote: »tbright1965 wrote: »CarvedTones wrote: »
I like restraint better than restricted. I think of restricted as not allowing certain things and restraint as not having too much of things but allowing everything. Anyway, yes, I am still exercising constraint. But my point was/is that it was not a big adjustment. IME, the bigger the adjustment at maintenance, the greater the chance of failure. In the past, when I did crash dieting all the way down, I would return to my old habits but just try not to let eating get out of control. Never worked. This time, I wasn't eating a lot less than maintenance toward the end of the loss and the smaller adjustment was easier to make successfully (so far).
I like this as well.
Think of this analogy. My car will go 150MPH. It can accelerate to 60MPH in 5 seconds. I may show restraint by driving at 70MPH on the freeway, but I don't restrict myself by not using the acceleration to get to 70MPH as fast as possible from time to time.
If one can drive at or near the speed limit even though their car can go twice as fast, you have the skills to show restraint in your eating by not exceeding your daily calorie limits. That doesn't mean you can't enjoy a decadent treat (fast acceleration.) But it does mean you will reach that limit quicker and have to get out of the throttle/put the fork down sooner.
My favorite analogy about making the small adjustment at the end is airplanes slowly descending for a soft landing. When they land by falling out of the sky the result usually isn't as successful.
I like that! Crash diet, crash landing
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