legs in a constant state of soreness

teebirderv8

So, I need some advice in regards to some goals. In some ways I feel like a Ronin with many masters... a lot of goals and it's difficult to balance them and listen to my body.

I don't want to go into the full details ( if you want a full description of my background look at my other posts as they detail my specific situation), but I'm primarily a weight lifter that wants to lose weight, improve my running, and increase my overall VO2 max.

My limiting factor at this point seems to be my weight. At roughly 250lbs, my legs seem to take a beating and combined with my other workouts, are in a constant state of being sore.

I lift weights 4 times a week, and generally workout 4-5 days a week. Generally, my first workout of the week after the weekend is a 1.5 mile run at my fastest pace, followed by a few upper body compound exercises to focus on my chest, shoulders, and triceps.

Day 2 is a heavy squat day. I start with about 20 minutes on the elliptical at a light pace, then move on to my leg workout.

Usually after day 2 is where my legs start breaking down for the week and get pretty sore. Cardio, particularly high intensity cardio that raises my heart rate, is important part of my workouts. Unfortunately, it seems like everything I do is very taxing to my legs. Running ( at any pace) is particularly taxing and I find it difficult to add mileage without destroying my legs. Even using the elliptical at a high intensity wreaks havoc on my legs. By the end of the week my legs are pretty much shot.

I've been experimenting with different forms of cardio to see what works the best without beating my legs up, and it's tough to find. I alternate doing 8-9 rounds of bag work some weeks... and even THAT seems to hit my legs pretty hard.

Anyone have any advice on good forms of moderately intense cardio that is easy on legs? I try to limit my "steady state" cardio to no more that once or twice a week, and I'd like some ideas for things the will raise my heart enough to aid in conditioning that won't be overly stressful to my legs.

stanmann571

Take some time off the running-Stick with the elliptical for a bit. and don't go high intensity every time.

Go into the running easier when you pick it back up.-Give it about another 10 lbs. start slow, ease into a program like C25K. I know it's not how they taught it in basic, but give it a try.

TavistockToad

Have a rest week, then drop the fastest pace run, and slowly increase pace instead.

Swimming with a float between your legs would give you a good cardio workout.

mbaker566

legs need days off too.
c25k is good. or intervals in general
every time you run should not be at your fastest pace

slow and easy. also running shoes are not the same as gym shoes.

frankly, i don't think weight is that much of a factor. i think fitness level is.

have you considered swimming, water running, or water aerobics?

stanmann571

mbaker566 wrote: »

legs need days off too.
c25k is good. or intervals in general
every time you run should not be at your fastest pace

slow and easy. also running shoes are not the same as gym shoes.

frankly, i don't think weight is that much of a factor. i think fitness level is.

have you considered swimming, water running, or water aerobics?

It's not that big of a factor. I was running C25K from the time I was 250 through 230 and back to 240 and back to 228 and back to 235. Yeah. Doing up to 3 miles of running in a session NBD.

MikePfirrman

Take up rowing or SkiErg or an Assault Bike instead. You don't have to run to build your VO2 max. That's a misconception that I had for a long time. I ran for around four years and was pretty awful at it. I was limited to around 30 MPW (miles per week). My body couldn't take more than that. I'm stocky but not as stocky as you (and was 245 at my highest, around 210 when I started running).

Although I did get down to 170 by running, I was never fast and even when I was decent at it (I got to the point I could do 7/8 mile trail races), I still would stay inflamed for hours after doing it. After a chronic case of runner's knee (went on for around a year), I started limiting it to stationary bike and rowing on a Concept2 while "rehabbing".

Well, long story, but I've been doing rowing now four years and I compete in Indoor regattas and I row (on average) around 5 to 6 hours a week (roughly 60K/70K meters). Rowing is at least as aerobically challenging as running. Most just don't know how to do it. If you go to the Concept2 forums, there is a lot of information there (I started the current Pete Plan thread, which is more or less the beginner/education thread now).


A lot of guys who like power lifting absolutely love the rower. Unlike running, it compliments your body mass and doesn't seem to tear it down (at least for me). You can also "specialize" at different distances. Some guys do only 1000m races or 500m races -- those are usually the Viking strong kind of guys. Dr Shawn Baker is a good example of that (he's getting to be really well known on various fitness podcasts). He's a WR holder over 50.


Other machines are the SkiErg, great for a whole body workout. The Assault Bike or AirDyne Pro (or any similar bikes) are also great for training Vo2 max with minimal inflammation. I have an AirDyne Pro too and it's a killer workout. You can max out your HR very quickly.


I find all of these three far superior to running for aerobic conditioning. Many see heart size as an indicator of cardio aerobic adaptation. There was an Olympic medalist rower years ago in my hometown that they did some testing on (as part of a study on all the various Olympic athletes) to see if enlarged hearts were harmful. What they ended up concluding is that no, it's not harmful. But the other thing they found, which really surprised the researchers, is that rowers had, by far, the largest hearts (over marathoner, X-Country skiiers, anyone). Great, efficient full body workout.

Here's a good one (of Ross Love, very well known American "sprinter" to give you an idea of what I'm talking about.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=wr+row+500&&view=detail&mid=CAF027B603366FA9CDA2CAF027B603366FA9CDA2&rvsmid=EA562704CFE51D858F37EA562704CFE51D858F37&FORM=VDRVRV

My guess would be he's generating 800 to 1000 watts for the entire duration of that row.

MikePfirrman

This is the kind of guy you should be following. He's an absolute beast.

https://www.garageathletefitness.com/coach/

He now uses the Echo bike too (which is probably a better option than what I bought, the AirDyne Pro). The Echo bike is a very, very good option for building cardio too.

sgt1372

I also recommend rowing over running as a form of cardio to use w/lifting.

I lifted heavy 3x/week for 18 months but then started rowing in lieu of lifting as my primary for of exercise.

Starting 7 months,ago, I have been rowing 10k meters a day which takes only 50 mins of actual rowing and burns an ave of 550 cals a day, which allows me to maintain my weight while eating more to avoid hunger and to consume more protein and other nutrients.

I have not experienced any signiflcant loss of strength doing this which I believe is due at least in part to the fact that rowing reportedly involves about 84% of the muscles in your body.

It can also be done in the convenience or your home or gym at any time day or not. Nothing better or more convenient than rowing in terms of cardio IMO.

Candyspun

Hooping is a great form of cardio when I have sore legs. It mostly uses core muscles. It employs the thigh muscles somewhat as you maintain the posture, but not to the extent that you have painful leg muscles afterwards.

MikePfirrman

The only other thing about VO2 max training is there is no getting around it -- it's brutally hard and it sucks. Common rowing workouts (and these would be comparable to running) would be 1000m X 4 with 3 to 5 minute rests as hard as you can manage without quitting. Another good one is 5000m (5K) as hard as you can go. Another is 1500m X 5 with 5 minutes rest. All of these are extremely brutal and you have to be in moderately good shape to do them in the first place.

Until you can get to the point where you can do roughly 5 minutes at 85% to 90% of max (and then repeat several times), you're really not improving your VO2 max. You need to do this at least every 10 days not to lose progress and probably at least once a week to gain progress.

Because you're mostly a lifter (first), I'd stick to very fast (but short) intervals. Something like 250m X 10 or at least 100m X 20 (if you can build up to that). 500m X 8 is another good one with 2/3 minutes rest.

vallary14

Honor your rest days, your body is telling you that you need it. I know resting completely may not be desirable to you so maybe go for a walk or do some yoga which are still good exercises but not going to tax your muscles. That’s the best advice I can come up with.

IGbnat24

Do you vary your running pace or is it always as fast as you can? If you want to improve on it, you need to back of it he pace and build a mileage base first.

As far as soreness, you need more off days with respect to your legs. Do cardio before or after weight sessions to cut back on training days.

You can’t improve on everything at once. You need to pick one goal and make that a priority.

teebirderv8

I think I'm going to save squats for the end of the week. It seems like that's what is more taxing relative to the running. I came back over the weekend and easily pushed beyond my last best, and I think I probably would have been able to push a little more if I really had to. Legs felt great, and aren't super sore after yesterdays running, so I'm thinking the heavy squats are where the breaking point is.

Basically as far as running, I've been keeping a set pace, and increasing the length of time at that pace. In my situation, it's been a pace of 6 mph for as long as I can hold that pace. I started out being able to hold that for half a mile -- yesterday I was able to do 1.2 miles without burning myself out. I'll usually slow to a walk for about a tenth of a mile then finish the last quarter mile as fast as I can -- about 7-7.5 mph. I've been doing this twice a week while doing elliptical in between to save my quads.

Rowing sounds interesting, although I have to see what the availability of it is. The gym at my office is a bit limited so I don't have access to a lot of things some gyms have. Also, I think it's key to note that the running sessions are done right before my lifting sessions. I'll run, take about a ten minute cool down, then hit the weights right after.

I should probably mention -- I also have *kitten* flat feet. I almost didn't get into the military because of that, and they worsened since I've gotten out. I usually stick to a treadmill since it's much lower impact.

aokoye

teebirderv8 wrote: »

I should probably mention -- I also have *kitten* flat feet. I almost didn't get into the military because of that, and they worsened since I've gotten out. I usually stick to a treadmill since it's much lower impact.

I also have very flat feet. Did you get your running shoes at a running store? If not, I would go to a reputable one and have them watch you walk and run. I just started running about four weeks ago and turns out a track is a much better surface for me than a treadmill. Whether or not you can fit that into your weekly schedule instead of running on a treadmill I don't know.

neospektiv

You could also add swimming. When I played basketball in school, my knees would take a beating during practice and I started swimming for cardio. It was a beating as it actually takes more energy to swim a mile than it does to run a mile.