NuSI circling the drain
AnvilHead
Posts: 18,343 Member
https://www.wired.com/story/how-a-dollar40-million-nutrition-science-crusade-fell-apart/
Gary Taubes' ambitious nutrition research project is on life support, and the studies commissioned by NuSI themselves have failed to show any scientific merit to their own theories.
At least maybe Taubes has had a moment of enlightenment and self-realization:
Gary Taubes' ambitious nutrition research project is on life support, and the studies commissioned by NuSI themselves have failed to show any scientific merit to their own theories.
At least maybe Taubes has had a moment of enlightenment and self-realization:
“I say this to my wife all the time: ‘Maybe I’m a quack.’ All quacks are sure they’re right. Isn’t that the defining characteristic of a quack?..."
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Replies
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For the sole purpose of being provocative, does NuSI = Keto?0
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I was going to feel bad for the people he milked 40 million from until the article pointed out that they are just funding other people doing the same research. Clearly the money is coming with an agenda.1
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Hahahahahahaha1
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This is the last sentence in the article:Taubes now has the kind of conflicts of interest that make publications wary. He’s working with a new editor and a new outlet after his old editor at Science wouldn’t touch it. Taubes founded NuSI to support objective science; now, it's his own objectivity he has to defend.
:laugh:6 -
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I wonder how often this list gets updated.1 -
I wonder what his worshippers will do now?
Oh yeah, they'll continue to defy/ deny science as usual.
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@New_Heavens_Earth I don't know but he was way ahead of his time. I kick myself in the rearend when I read through it because all of things I've tried are on that list.
whoever they are, that's there nothing worse than a reformed smoker or a reformed drinker or a reformed dieter.
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Love this.1
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@New_Heavens_Earth I don't know but he was way ahead of his time. I kick myself in the rearend when I read through it because all of things I've tried are on that list.
Me too. But I can think of a few new names who need to be added on.1 -
"Me too. But I can think of a few new names who need to be added on."
There are some here who could write their own book. Would it sell without a dieting platform, miracle weight loss cure, maybe. People want magic and enjoy imaginary thinking that will help them lose 25 lbs in only 30 days.
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Who would have ever thought that a journalist, who wanted to play scientist, theories didn't pan out?8
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This makes me ridiculously happy.
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Taubes’ career is toast.8
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From @AnvilHead 's link:
"But he’s also starting to think about how to go back to the life he had before NuSI, the life of a journalist."
Where he can continue to publish all sorts of fake news? Seems more like a lateral move to me.9 -
L1zardQueen wrote: »Taubes’ career is toast.
Too bad he can't eat it9 -
taubes be or taubes not to be8
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LOL. - I read all that and in the end paraphrased it to - “I can eat a cookie”8
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emmamcgarity wrote: »LOL. - I read all that and in the end paraphrased it to - “I can eat a cookie”
Cookies for us all!5 -
He can now write for goop or sell books on Amazon . His worshippers will just post links to goop now and talk about how his work/ words are fact and how keto cured them of every ailment under the sun .6
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emmamcgarity wrote: »LOL. - I read all that and in the end paraphrased it to - “I can eat a cookie”
Cookies for us all!
IKR!?!?!
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PF Oatmeal Raisin not Belvita.5
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L1zardQueen wrote: »PF Oatmeal Raisin not Belvita.
Cake sandwiches for everyone5 -
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My favorite line of the article:
"The most significant finding was that it’s hard to stick to a diet for a whole year."
Who knew?
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I would feel pretty embarrassed and terrible if I got several million dollars to spend on proving my pet theories and all I managed to do were some small studies suggesting that I was actually completely wrong.
But I'm not sure Taubes has the level of self-reflection to realize that's what he's done here.9 -
janejellyroll wrote: »I would feel pretty embarrassed and terrible if I got several million dollars to spend on proving my pet theories and all I managed to do were some small studies suggesting that I was actually completely wrong.
But I'm not sure Taubes has the level of self-reflection to realize that's what he's done here.
I always love how everyone is able to really dissect a person, their motives, and the challenges they faced from a few articles someone else has written. There's so many layers of bias that it scares me to think that people feel sufficient to make claims they are putting their name on. In the end, it's also the biases you bring to the table. For another perspective (with equal minimal worth, if we're honest), here's my bias.
As a nutritional scientist, I can attest to the difficulty to do quality research in this field. And, most of the research that's been done is either poor quality, or based on epidemiological nature. The later is used extensively, and can't prove causation, just association. So, scientist try to "interpret" what these associations mean, and carry their own biases. We'll call them "pet theories", to stay consistent. All scientist have them, spending a life trying to prove them. On top of that, the government quit funding nutritional research to any large degree decades ago. That means industry does it. How unbiased do you think that ends up? As the saying goes, "Nothing will influence a researcher more than a paycheck." They are human, after all.
Though people can make a determination that Taubes is just a crook, I look at what he tried to do. Like any scientist, he had a theory about why things were as they seem to be, and gathered a lot of quality research to see what is feasible. He then tried to do what is expensive and difficult, but the only means to find causation: A random, controlled trial. This is something that is sadly needed in nutritional science for the reasons I stated above. And, honestly, this is shared by those that gave their millions. You don't make millions too often being stupid.
The fact a trial (minimal at that, run by a researcher that had a different perspective) or trials, especially at the pilot level, failed to show a theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Others have interpreted the results differently. However, even if it did, it would have added to the value of science as a whole. That's how science works. It's a consensus.
In the end, if this was such a cut and dry topic, we would not be STILL arguing about it. :-)10 -
terryritter1 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I would feel pretty embarrassed and terrible if I got several million dollars to spend on proving my pet theories and all I managed to do were some small studies suggesting that I was actually completely wrong.
But I'm not sure Taubes has the level of self-reflection to realize that's what he's done here.
I always love how everyone is able to really dissect a person, their motives, and the challenges they faced from a few articles someone else has written. There's so many layers of bias that it scares me to think that people feel sufficient to make claims they are putting their name on. In the end, it's also the biases you bring to the table. For another perspective (with equal minimal worth, if we're honest), here's my bias.
As a nutritional scientist, I can attest to the difficulty to do quality research in this field. And, most of the research that's been done is either poor quality, or based on epidemiological nature. The later is used extensively, and can't prove causation, just association. So, scientist try to "interpret" what these associations mean, and carry their own biases. We'll call them "pet theories", to stay consistent. All scientist have them, spending a life trying to prove them. On top of that, the government quit funding nutritional research to any large degree decades ago. That means industry does it. How unbiased do you think that ends up? As the saying goes, "Nothing will influence a researcher more than a paycheck." They are human, after all.
Though people can make a determination that Taubes is just a crook, I look at what he tried to do. Like any scientist, he had a theory about why things were as they seem to be, and gathered a lot of quality research to see what is feasible. He then tried to do what is expensive and difficult, but the only means to find causation: A random, controlled trial. This is something that is sadly needed in nutritional science for the reasons I stated above. And, honestly, this is shared by those that gave their millions. You don't make millions too often being stupid.
The fact a trial (minimal at that, run by a researcher that had a different perspective) or trials, especially at the pilot level, failed to show a theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Others have interpreted the results differently. However, even if it did, it would have added to the value of science as a whole. That's how science works. It's a consensus.
In the end, if this was such a cut and dry topic, we would not be STILL arguing about it. :-)
I'm not sure why you are directing this at me.
I never claimed Taubes is a crook (I actually think he is convinced he is right and isn't being primarily motivated by the desire to make money or get his hands on the money of others) and I never claimed it was established that his theory was incorrect. Notice the word I used: "suggested." You want to take that and conclude I don't understand how trials, especially small ones, work? Knock yourself out, I guess.
Yes, scientists do have theories. Some even have "pet theories." Not all scientists exercise the right level of self-criticism and detachment that is often helpful for good research. But you're avoiding something critical here: Taubes isn't what most people would consider a scientist. He's a science writer, a science writer who long ago crossed the line from science journalism to science opinion writing. He has no degrees in nutrition, medicine, or anything related to how the human body functions. He isn't actually doing this research, he's more a mechanism for funding research that he hoped would prove him correct.
I agree that the studies (if they prove to be constructed and implemented well) will add to human knowledge of nutrition. I don't think they'll add to Taubes' understanding because I do think -- from my observations of him -- that he isn't capable of the self-reflection necessary to change his mind on this subject. But maybe he'll surprise me.8 -
janejellyroll wrote: »terryritter1 wrote: »janejellyroll wrote: »I would feel pretty embarrassed and terrible if I got several million dollars to spend on proving my pet theories and all I managed to do were some small studies suggesting that I was actually completely wrong.
But I'm not sure Taubes has the level of self-reflection to realize that's what he's done here.
I always love how everyone is able to really dissect a person, their motives, and the challenges they faced from a few articles someone else has written. There's so many layers of bias that it scares me to think that people feel sufficient to make claims they are putting their name on. In the end, it's also the biases you bring to the table. For another perspective (with equal minimal worth, if we're honest), here's my bias.
As a nutritional scientist, I can attest to the difficulty to do quality research in this field. And, most of the research that's been done is either poor quality, or based on epidemiological nature. The later is used extensively, and can't prove causation, just association. So, scientist try to "interpret" what these associations mean, and carry their own biases. We'll call them "pet theories", to stay consistent. All scientist have them, spending a life trying to prove them. On top of that, the government quit funding nutritional research to any large degree decades ago. That means industry does it. How unbiased do you think that ends up? As the saying goes, "Nothing will influence a researcher more than a paycheck." They are human, after all.
Though people can make a determination that Taubes is just a crook, I look at what he tried to do. Like any scientist, he had a theory about why things were as they seem to be, and gathered a lot of quality research to see what is feasible. He then tried to do what is expensive and difficult, but the only means to find causation: A random, controlled trial. This is something that is sadly needed in nutritional science for the reasons I stated above. And, honestly, this is shared by those that gave their millions. You don't make millions too often being stupid.
The fact a trial (minimal at that, run by a researcher that had a different perspective) or trials, especially at the pilot level, failed to show a theory doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Others have interpreted the results differently. However, even if it did, it would have added to the value of science as a whole. That's how science works. It's a consensus.
In the end, if this was such a cut and dry topic, we would not be STILL arguing about it. :-)
I'm not sure why you are directing this at me.
I never claimed Taubes is a crook (I actually think he is convinced he is right and isn't being primarily motivated by the desire to make money or get his hands on the money of others) and I never claimed it was established that his theory was incorrect. Notice the word I used: "suggested." You want to take that and conclude I don't understand how trials, especially small ones, work? Knock yourself out, I guess.
Yes, scientists do have theories. Some even have "pet theories." Not all scientists exercise the right level of self-criticism and detachment that is often helpful for good research. But you're avoiding something critical here: Taubes isn't what most people would consider a scientist. He's a science writer, a science writer who long ago crossed the line from science journalism to science opinion writing. He has no degrees in nutrition, medicine, or anything related to how the human body functions. He isn't actually doing this research, he's more a mechanism for funding research that he hoped would prove him correct.
I agree that the studies (if they prove to be constructed and implemented well) will add to human knowledge of nutrition. I don't think they'll add to Taubes' understanding because I do think -- from my observations of him -- that he isn't capable of the self-reflection necessary to change his mind on this subject. But maybe he'll surprise me.
Given that he said that even if the research proved his theories wrong he'd still go on believing them, you are pretty safe in saying that he's lacking in the self-reflection department.
Taubes was only willing to accept one conclusion from the research, and anything less was unacceptable to him. That's not a scientific approach. The article even pointed to how he interpreted Hall's study design to be flawed simply because it didn't use a run-up diet that was biased to give a certain result.10 -
A proper scientist does the study and learns from it. They dont have expectations, only questions to be answered.
Taubes had neither and only wanted to see what he wanted to see in all things. Not a scientist at all.4
This discussion has been closed.
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