Zones & Energy Supply

vitaminn
vitaminn Posts: 31 Member
edited November 27 in Fitness and Exercise
Hey all, I'm sure the lines are a bit blurry but i'm wondering where the body is getting the majority of it's energy from while in different heart rate zones?

I've looked around the web and there is a plethora of crap; I'm hoping someone can point me to a good research paper, article or just plain ol' tell me what you know.

(I know "zone percentages" may very depending on the source being used but in general, lets say zones are similar to the percentages below.)

Below are the zones....thoughts?
i.e.
  • Zone 1 (~50-60% MHR):
  • Zone 2 (~60-70% MHR): (mostly) Fat Reserves
  • Zone 3 (~70-80% MHR):
  • Zone 4 (~80-90% MHR):
  • Zone 5 (90-100% MHR): (mostly) Muscle Reserves

Hope that makes sense! Thanks.

Replies

  • vitaminn
    vitaminn Posts: 31 Member
    Mostly the former...using the zones to train.

    That said, I'm 200 and intend on loosing 10 lbs of the Crisco (fat) while keeping the muscle I have.

    After the fat loss, I want to remain relatively lean and build muscle.

    I'd like to know what you mean by "if you want to use them to enhance weight loss (or fat loss), you need to understand a few things about how we burn calories and what is 'really' important." I definitely don't intend to just stay in the "fat burning" zone to burn the calories.

    Thanks for your insight.
  • dewd2
    dewd2 Posts: 2,445 Member
    OK - For training... Endurance sports require long sustainable energy. We (I run) use zones to enhance our ability to use fat as fuel. We do this primarily by running in zone 2 or 3. This type of training aids in distance running and many other sports. This is somewhat over simplified as you need to know a few things to do this effectively (like you actual max hr tested, VO2Max, and Lactate Threshold). FWIW - I stopped using this over a year ago because it was too much of a PITA. :)

    For fat loss, while it is true you will burn a higher percentage of fat in lower zones, you still burn less than you would if you stayed in higher zones. I can run a mile in 9ish minutes in zone 2. I can run a mile in 7ish minutes in zone 3/4 and I can run a mile in 6ish minutes in zone 4/5. I burn the same number of calories for all the miles but I burn slightly more fat in the lower zones. However, I can run 4 miles in zone 3/4 in the same time it would take me to run 3 miles in zone 2. I will burn many more calories by running the extra mile and therefore also burn more fat.

    Having said all that, I can (and do sometimes) gain weight while running long distances no matter what zone I'm in if I don't pay attention to my diet. Diet is the key - I run for sport and only care about fat burning as it relates to my sport.
  • vitaminn
    vitaminn Posts: 31 Member
    Agreed...diet is key and I'm on it like Blue Bonnet. )) Thanks for your insight dewd2

    If I'm sipping Vitargo (a rapidly digestive carb) while working out in an elevated zone, say zones 4 and low end of 5, will the body use that for energy instead of using muscle for it's energy?
  • amusedmonkey
    amusedmonkey Posts: 10,330 Member
    So you're basically concerned that higher intensity cardio is going to decrease your muscle mass. As long as you do supplementary resistance training and eat enough protein, you should worry less about that. The energy that "comes from muscle" when you're in higher intensities is usually from the glycogen stored in the muscle (and liver), you're not losing much actual lean muscle mass unless you're undereating, and it's basically the same for all cardio zones.

    Restoring glycogen helps with recovery and performance in your next sessions, so just a diet with adequate carbs should be good enough. Drinking Vitargo is usually not necessary as intense exercise sessions don't tend to be long enough to need it.
  • aokoye
    aokoye Posts: 3,495 Member
    vitaminn wrote: »
    If I'm sipping Vitargo (a rapidly digestive carb) while working out in an elevated zone, say zones 4 and low end of 5, will the body use that for energy instead of using muscle for it's energy?

    Honestly I highly doubt your working out for long enough to need to supplement your workout with Vitargo or any other carb related nutrition. For reference, I only consume carbs while exercising, in my case riding my bike, if I'm planning on doing so for at least an hour and a half.
  • sijomial
    sijomial Posts: 19,809 Member
    One problem with zone training is accurately knowing your actual MHR - that needs to be tested and not estimated. (And the testing to failure is an absolutely awful experience that only fit and heart healthy people should attempt.)

    The second problem with zone training for weight loss is that it makes zero difference to your fat loss over time - that comes from your calorie balance and not the particular fuels used during an exercise period.
    If you use up an amount of your glycogen it gets replenished the next time you eat, the fat you burn gets replenished the next time you eat - but not all of it if you are in a calorie deficit.

    If the percentage of fat used by your body mattered then we would sleep ourselves to leanness because that's when virtually all your fuel is from fat.

    The fear of burning muscle for fuel isn't a genuine concern, it's a valuable resource that you body will conserve.
    The period of time you can actually get beyond the aerobic fuelling of cardio is extremely short.

    Look to the kitchen and not the gym for weight loss. Exercise for health, fitness and enjoyment - plus you get to eat a higher calorie allowance whilst maintaining the same deficit.
  • robertw486
    robertw486 Posts: 2,401 Member
    vitaminn wrote: »
    Hey all, I'm sure the lines are a bit blurry but i'm wondering where the body is getting the majority of it's energy from while in different heart rate zones?

    I've looked around the web and there is a plethora of crap; I'm hoping someone can point me to a good research paper, article or just plain ol' tell me what you know.

    (I know "zone percentages" may very depending on the source being used but in general, lets say zones are similar to the percentages below.)

    Below are the zones....thoughts?
    i.e.
    • Zone 1 (~50-60% MHR):
    • Zone 2 (~60-70% MHR): (mostly) Fat Reserves
    • Zone 3 (~70-80% MHR):
    • Zone 4 (~80-90% MHR):
    • Zone 5 (90-100% MHR): (mostly) Muscle Reserves

    Hope that makes sense! Thanks.

    First, let me say that I agree with all the advice given above. Calorie control is the key to weight loss, and training alone doesn't control your calories.

    As for sipping carbs while working out hard, most of us have adequate glycogen reserves for anything less than very intense workouts and/or less intense longer workouts. Above that point taking in some simple carbs can help.




    Your question of energy supply vs heart rate is much more complex. Like many other things, it varies with your fitness level. There are loads of studies on respiratory exchange ratio and/or respiratory quotient that explain how substrate use is measured. But in a nutshell, for any single person, the harder you are working the more your energy percentage comes from carbs/glucose. The exacts will vary some person to person, with other fitness indicators such as HRmax, VO2max, having an impact. The exacts will also vary day to day based on the amount of activity in previous days.

    But the kicker is that along with other fitness indicators, the more a person trains for endurance the better they become at using more fats for fuel vs carbs. Now, don't confuse this with weight loss as that is controlled by energy balance or calories in vs calories out. But that person that does more endurance training can use less carbs during exercise than the person that doesn't train. Since even lean trained athletes carry enough body fat for a lot of fueling this is a big energy supply. But they also pull energy off that fat more efficiently. So the better trained endurance athlete with less fat can use more of that fat than the overweight not trained person that actually has more body fat. Which in turn allows them to go farther/faster before depleting their carb/glycogen reserves. So being trained makes the total fuel use more efficient.

    So even though the energy source isn't what controls weight loss, it's like most other things in the fitness world. Training makes the body adapt. Sit on the couch and be lazy, and your body is better at burning carbs when you move. Train a lot and your body is better at burning fat when you move.
  • dewd2
    dewd2 Posts: 2,445 Member
    vitaminn wrote: »
    Agreed...diet is key and I'm on it like Blue Bonnet. )) Thanks for your insight dewd2

    If I'm sipping Vitargo (a rapidly digestive carb) while working out in an elevated zone, say zones 4 and low end of 5, will the body use that for energy instead of using muscle for it's energy?

    I should have added to my last post that this applies mostly to long endurance events. During the first hour of my run I am burning carbs and there's nothing I can do about it. Adding carbs after an hour will help replenish the glycogen stores. It is tricky to get it right and like I said above, it is a pain my my *kitten* to monitor as closely as I need to make it work. These days I've reverted back to feel and it works just as well for me.

    Don't overthink this. There's so much misinformation out there to make your head spin. Most of it is just marketing to sell gadgets. I still record my heart rate but pay little attention to it (my watch records it for me). I only pay attention to my resting HR as changes in that can indicate over training (of course feeling like I'm running in quick sand is a good indicator too :) ).
  • Cbean08
    Cbean08 Posts: 1,092 Member
    Check out MyZone. It's a wearable heart rate monitor that tells you which zone your in at any given time during your workout.
  • vitaminn
    vitaminn Posts: 31 Member
    I really appreciate all the input from ya'll. ))

    I started down this path of thinking about zones and from which zone the body primarily gets it energy from after watching the Utah native David Kimmerle.

    Following are two of his videos that set me down this path. In the first video linked, is he full of *kitten* then?



    Video One:

    https://youtu.be/nRmcr0iJTck?t=12s



    Video Two (less about my specific question but zone related):

    https://youtu.be/tCiRwwGnfrc?t=11s



    Cbean08 wrote: »
    Check out MyZone. It's a wearable heart rate monitor that tells you which zone your in at any given time during your workout.

    Cool. I now have the Garmin Fenix 3 HR and use a chest strap and am pretty happy but i'll take a gander.



    dewd2 wrote: »
    vitaminn wrote: »
    Agreed...diet is key and I'm on it like Blue Bonnet. )) Thanks for your insight dewd2

    If I'm sipping Vitargo (a rapidly digestive carb) while working out in an elevated zone, say zones 4 and low end of 5, will the body use that for energy instead of using muscle for it's energy?

    I should have added to my last post that this applies mostly to long endurance events. During the first hour of my run I am burning carbs and there's nothing I can do about it. Adding carbs after an hour will help replenish the glycogen stores. It is tricky to get it right and like I said above, it is a pain my my *kitten* to monitor as closely as I need to make it work. These days I've reverted back to feel and it works just as well for me.

    Don't overthink this. There's so much misinformation out there to make your head spin. Most of it is just marketing to sell gadgets. I still record my heart rate but pay little attention to it (my watch records it for me). I only pay attention to my resting HR as changes in that can indicate over training (of course feeling like I'm running in quick sand is a good indicator too :) ).

    I'm trying not to overthink it but I'm definitely in learning mode. )) Hell, I'm 45 and want to get it right. ha.
  • AnnPT77
    AnnPT77 Posts: 34,600 Member
    edited July 2018
    vitaminn wrote: »
    I really appreciate all the input from ya'll. ))

    I started down this path of thinking about zones and from which zone the body primarily gets it energy from after watching the Utah native David Kimmerle.

    Following are two of his videos that set me down this path. In the first video linked, is he full of *kitten* then?

    Yes, he is. Very full.

    And if he's not lying about what his heart rate was in the video, I think his CV fitness/endurance is pretty terrible, besides. (He's very out of breath after working for a short time at a relatively low heart rate, and it's taking him a long time time to recover.)

    The zones give endurance athletes useful information that can help them with training & fueling strategies. For weight loss and body composition goals, the zones are mostly irrelevant. Overall day-long calorie deficit gets made up primarily from stored fat eventually, no matter what fuel substrate is burned moment to moment while doing the exercise (which is normally a varying mix of blood glucose, glycogen and fat). Stored fat is like the bank account your body draws from to make up for shortfalls in overall calorie intake. If you're in an overall calorie deficit, your body may not need that withdrawal during the workout, but I'll need it eventually. The actual stored-fat burn may even happen while you're asleep.

    And intense cardio doesn't "burn up your muscles".

  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,463 Member
    edited July 2018
    vitaminn wrote: »
    Mostly the former...using the zones to train.

    That said, I'm 200 and intend on loosing 10 lbs of the Crisco (fat) while keeping the muscle I have .

    From what I’ve read on here over past 4 years, it’s not physiologically possible to lose 10 lbs that is 100% fat and 0% muscle. So you’ll need to readjust that goal. Even body builders doing intentional bulk and cut know the will always gain some fat when bulking and lose some muscle when cutting.

  • lorrpb
    lorrpb Posts: 11,463 Member
    edited July 2018
    Dup

  • NorthCascades
    NorthCascades Posts: 10,968 Member
    You don't burn muscle for fuel to exercise at high intensity. That's a myth.
  • vitaminn
    vitaminn Posts: 31 Member
    dewd2 wrote: »
    Yeah, he is full of *kitten*. You do not stop burning fat when you go above or below some zone. And you do not just start burning muscle when you have carbs to burn (the body's preferred fuel). The only thing that happens in different zones is the percentage changes.

    I kinda figured it wasn't black or white in that the energy source being used wouldn't suddenly begin or end depending on which zone you were in...suddenly burning fat OR muscle. Rather, as you suggested, it's "percentage changes"... nuanced.

    Kimmerle, the guy in the video(s) I linked to, looks as if he's had some major successes in transforming his body and because of that, I figured he was onto something. I've watched some of his training videos and he seemed pretty down to earth and honest.

    Anyway. I value all the feedback from you and others! I have plenty to learn. Cheers. ))



  • robertw486
    robertw486 Posts: 2,401 Member
    vitaminn wrote: »
    dewd2 wrote: »

    Kimmerle, the guy in the video(s) I linked to, looks as if he's had some major successes in transforming his body and because of that, I figured he was onto something. I've watched some of his training videos and he seemed pretty down to earth and honest.

    Anyway. I value all the feedback from you and others! I have plenty to learn. Cheers. ))



    Keep in mind that success in changes isn't always due to complete understandings. Many RER/RQ charts won't even show protein utilization because it is so rare, even in ultra endurance athletes.

    Below is a link I found with some good charts. Just keep in mind this is a single example, with triathlete history, and her specific diet, etc. The actual results would vary quite a bit person to person.

    https://thenaturalnutritionist.com.au/metabolic-testing-and-the-respiratory-quotient-rq/
  • dewd2
    dewd2 Posts: 2,445 Member
    Today I ran 12 miles at about 20-25 seconds slower than my marathon pace. I was able to chat with friends during the entire run and at no time did I feel stressed. This was nothing more than a typical training run as I prepare for my marathon in a few months.

    I just checked my HR stats to see where I was. As expected, I was in Zone 4 for 75% of the run. I spent 20% in zones 2/3 and I hit zone 5 for for less than 4 minutes (no doubt when we kicked our pace up to HM or faster during mile 10-11). My average for the run was 82% of my HRM. This is pretty much spot on for what I expect to do at Wineglass at the end of September (assuming the weather is perfect like it was today).

    If I had gone strictly by HR I would have been waaaay slower but that was not the purpose of this run. Had the temperature and humidity been high like it was last week my HR would have been higher (and I would have been slower). I would have still burn the same calories and similar fat.

    I am posting this only to show HR can be useful for training for certain circumstances but the majority of successful runners I know pretty much ignore it. And weather it burns more fat or not makes almost no difference since I was able to cover so much ground (my estimated calorie burn was 1292 which seems to be pretty accurate for me).
  • vitaminn
    vitaminn Posts: 31 Member
    dewd2 wrote: »
    I am posting this only to show HR can be useful for training for certain circumstances but the majority of successful runners I know pretty much ignore it. And weather it burns more fat or not makes almost no difference since I was able to cover so much ground (my estimated calorie burn was 1292 which seems to be pretty accurate for me).


    I s'pose too, it depends on ones goals? To "cover more ground", build and retain lean mass, cardiovascular health, loose fat, etcetera...so many different goals.




  • vitaminn
    vitaminn Posts: 31 Member
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    Sadly, people can be genuine but misinformed. They can also be successful but attribute their success to the wrong things. I have a relative who genuinely believes her hair is thicker now because she eats honey every day, she doesn't acknowledge that when she stopped the medication that was causing her hair loss her hair grew back. The bodybuilding community is full of people who believe the weirdest things (bro science) and many of them look like they're onto something if you go purely by their looks.


    Agreed. Though, it does catch my attention when see a seemingly unfit personal trainer teaching someone how to be fit;. So many variables and so many priorities/goals.

    It's just skewed view that I have a tendency of believing more of someone who's made successes in their desired goals; they've done something right...unless they're not "clean" i.e using drugs to get there.

  • aokoye
    aokoye Posts: 3,495 Member
    vitaminn wrote: »
    amusedmonkey wrote: »
    Sadly, people can be genuine but misinformed. They can also be successful but attribute their success to the wrong things. I have a relative who genuinely believes her hair is thicker now because she eats honey every day, she doesn't acknowledge that when she stopped the medication that was causing her hair loss her hair grew back. The bodybuilding community is full of people who believe the weirdest things (bro science) and many of them look like they're onto something if you go purely by their looks.


    Agreed. Though, it does catch my attention when see a seemingly unfit personal trainer teaching someone how to be fit;. So many variables and so many priorities/goals.

    It's just skewed view that I have a tendency of believing more of someone who's made successes in their desired goals; they've done something right...unless they're not "clean" i.e using drugs to get there.
    Except if your goals involve being cardiovascularly fit, he is seemingly not the person you want to follow given his apparent lack of cardio fitness. He may have met goals related to strength, but that doesn't translate to cardio fitness.

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